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@ (nameless one):
so the same question to you: why do you prefer Crystal Vein over City of Traitors? I used to use Crystals but City seems to me much better as for 2mana it stays usually longer in play.
and what about Path to Exile? It is not accelerating opponent too much when you Path 1-2x time in first 1-3turns? I'm still not sure with this...
Sometimes, I like Crystal Vein and sometimes I like City of Traitors. If the deck's curve goes higher then I will switch it to City of Traitors (as it does stay longer). Right now I like Crystal Vein since it provides flexibilty. I can sacrifice it anytime. If you're still running Scepter, then I think City of Traitors is the better call.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
As to Path, as I mentioned on the previous post, I hated it.
PS. I've updated my previous post.
I won't play Legacy until next month. I plan to test (nameless one)'s decklist. However, it will probably include 2 Isochron Scepter and 4 Orim's Chant, as I think the combo needs to be better protected. I prefered Noxious Revival in previous decklists, but with the advent of RiP, Chant will be better.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
Where do you guys check for Parfait lists? They seem inexistent at TC Decks.
Related to this, I think you will prefer 1x mox diamond, 1x land and 1x L.Tax in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
Well
I evolutioned the deck in a way quite different thaqn yours,
you play Tithe, not red...
So I expect to convice you one I've reached a good Top 8 with the deck.
I think I'm going to bnuild a Mono W based on Helm - rest In Peace Combo.
The fact is that the H_elm Combo is really good but makes the deck non recursive, thing I hate in a deck like this and makes also B.Wish worse as I used it for Replenish, Idilic and Restoration mainly.
But again I think that if we orient the deck to Helm we will be avocated to run the deck as White Stax, with Trinispehres and so on and the concept will change.
I think that we should run 1 or 2 rest in peace and 1 helm in a Control Parfait shell and no more.
Thinking about Helm Rest Number is Parfait?
Personal Opinions:
Grafdiggers > rest in peace (mainly because of costs, a cost 2 vs reanimator can be gg)
Elspeth > Helm.
Icochron is gold in some mutch ups I recognize, I play it because of not having other cards, but from now on with abrupt decay on the field, those decks you won before will be the ones that will crush if you have an isochron active and they have a.decay.
I tested it but I don't find it as needed at least in my build. Sure it wins you games, games I would have won having or not isocron. but I don't plan to seal the oponnent with chant, I prefer use humulity, moat, Cstory circle and so on. Aura of silcen also help a lot.
I just wanted to point out for those who didn't see, but WotC gave us a bomb.
Rest in Peace 1W
Enchantment
When Rest in Peace enters the battlefield, exile all cards from all graveyards.
If a card or token would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.
This card is Tormods crypt and Leyline of the Void all wrapped into one two mana card
It keeps mongoose a 1/1, makes goyfs 0/1s, and stops any deck reliant on their graveyard. Even without using it to solve the lack of win conditions it's worth maindecking.
But the combo is so so sweet
For those who care, just like Leyline, Rest in Peace is a 2 card instant mill their library to exile Combo with Helm of Obedience. It wins like painters grindstone, but the parts aren't stopped by the humilities in your deck or emrakul and creature removal in your opponents deck like painter/grindstone is. This is much harder to kill.
Now, the combo kill
Helm of Obedience 4
Artifact
X, Tap: Target opponent puts cards from the top of his or her library into his or her graveyard until a creature card or X cards are put into that graveyard this way, whichever comes first. If a creature card is put into that graveyard this way, sacrifice Helm of Obedience and put that card onto the battlefield under your control. X can't be 0.
The idea behind it being since no cards ever hit the yard it exiles infinitely. I'm going to be testing 3 rest and 2 helm (maybe 3 for fun) for now
LOL you're a page behind with the news.
That's what I get for missing page 6 haha
After checking page 6, a piece of advice is also try scorched ruins if you test lotus vale. It is a land with the se enters play ability, but taps for 4 colorless. Id be curious to see how 4 colorless is versus 3 white. The additional mana could be better considering the number of artifacts you run, but I don't know how reliant you are on white mana
Lotus Vale vs. Scorched Ruins is tricky:Quote:
Originally Posted by yespuhyren
While Ruins provides an extra mana, Vale makes sure you can make white (even other colors for splashes). Having both as a 3-4 of dilutes the basic lands the deck has. It also makes it vulnerable to mulligans as these lands will suck at the early stage of the game. Maybe a 2-2 split. Even then, I would only run 3 altogether, whether one or the other or split 2-1. Although this might be justified if you run Mox Diamond (though increasing the land count to 22+)
Running such lands will require maindecking 3-4 Pithing Needle because Wasteland exists. Although the rationale behind Needles is that they can shut down so much the deck hates to see (AEther Vial, Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Sensei's Divining Top (Counterbalance) among other things). Hell, I don't know if it's viable but you can name Fetchlands with it to shutdown future Fetchlands.
When I get time, I will try Lotus Vale (+3 Pithing Needles) just to get a feel.
As for other cards:
Balancing Act vs Cataclysm - I can't believe these cards haven't been tested. I've tried Balancing Act but I feel that I'm playing it wrong. I've explain the ideal scenario at my report. It feels like its gonna be good in the deck but all depends on which list.
I can see Cataclysm shining in more spell-based versions. Resolving it leaving a land, Land Tax, a Scroll Rack and possibly a hatebear (such as Thalia).
Extraplanar Lens - this card is actually great. It helps to keep your lands in check and it accelerates, although I wouldn't run this with Scorched Ruins/Lotus Vale.
Tangle Wire - is awesome in permanent based Parfait list. You tap down your Pithing Needles, Extraplanar Lens, Sensei's Divining Top, Cursed Totem. Though it's unfortunate that you can't tap down your enchantments.
Well, since what I have been playing around with is similar to the ones in this thread though I play a ton more U, I figured I'd post it up here.
This deck is a beating. Part Miracles, part Parfait, part Helm combo, and part UW control. I've been having a ball with this proxied up since the spoiling of Rest in Peace. That was just too easy getting to have tutors for a much easier to cast Helm combo in a color I'm way more comfortable in. I always hated how the old Helm combo relied on you getting Leyline in your opening hand or you had to wait for 5th turn at best and cast 2 four mana cards. Now you get the same package with it being much easier to put together. Having tutors to go get a Rack or Tax is just gravy.
This was originally my Stoneforge deck and I just moved the Stoneforges to the board since it is nice having access to Batterskulls against the decks that have a weakness to it. Of course, since mine was still a Tax deck, you get the amazing plays of Dazing things to activate Tax and going nuts on people with Brainstorms, Jace, and Scroll Racks.
This one was pretty strong with the Stoneforges, but now it's just sickening. Being able to threaten a turn 3 Jace or just flat out kill is scary. Detention Sphere is a really nice addition also. I like having Maelstrom Pulse O-ring.
Since I don't plan on going to any large tournaments for a while, enjoy. It's worth playing with. I had a ball at our local legacy tournaments. It's already proved it's worth to me. Try it out and enjoy the long game if you get into it. It's sooo fun having that much draw. Just remember you can't technically deck with a Scroll Rack. It comes up a lot.
The only thing I'm not sure of is the amount of Helms. It's really nice to have them early, but it sure sucks drawing multiples. There's a ton of draw so 2 is probably the right number. 3 RIP's is definitely correct. You won't want to ever pull one or add another. I might cut down on some Tundras since I always tend to play the basics first anyway unless I get the Daze/Tax opener. That's the only reason they are staying. Path over Swords is just too funny.
4 Land Tax
3 Scroll Rack
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Path to Exile
3 Terminus
4 Force of Will
4 Mox Diamond
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
4 Plains
4 Tundra
Side
2 Echoing Truth
1 Pithing Needle
2 Detention Sphere
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Batterskull
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Back to Basics
1 Runed Halo - (this is a debatable slot. It's only here to cover any stupid stuff I might not have thought of until I get a more solid SB)
Why no Energy Field?
It would probably be fairly pointless. The deck goes on the offense quite fast. In addition to that, you are playing with 3 Terminus, 4 Paths, and 3 Jaces. Not much need to hide behind the shield really. I guess it would be a far board card, but I don't think there's much need past 1.
Hi, I was yesterday in local tournament and I finished 2nd. I won against combo elves and ANT, and lost against RUG delver.
Match 1 Elves 2-0 (quite easy games, humility + terminus/wrath of god, than elspeth)
Match 2 RUG 0-2 Both games were quite long.
Game1. He 3 times FOWed my broken spells and killed me by Mongoose (only creature I haven't found answer).
Game2. Similar as 1st game, killed by Goyf & Mongoose. Again all broken spell were FOWed.
Match 3 ANT 2-1
Game 1 I started first with Chant in hand, but he discarted it next turn.
Game 2 Massive sideboard. I started, first turn tutor for Canonist. Than Scepter + Helix.
Game 3. Leyline & E.Tutor in opening hand...
As I said in my last report, deck is beating almost all non-blue aggro & storm/belcher decks. But still very very big issue with Blue-based deck. I really need help, maybe to change my sideboard or some cards in maindeck.
My thoughts after last tournament:
- Buried Ruin seems to be quite good in 2nd & 3rd game.
- Goblin Trenches seems to be quite expensive and not very strong in offensive. And too slow to start Tax/Rack engine quick.
- Every Lightning Helix save 1 turn
- Sideboard Blood Moon seems to be good against RUG/BUG and maybe UW too. More testing needed
- I had in sideboard 2x Pyroblast + 1x Blood Moon against blue, but no grave hate (really missed against RUG)
Top issue/questions: BLUE :cry:
- O.Chant's seems to be not enough to protect my key cards against counterspells. I think I need more protection.
- I'm not sure how to win against BUG, RUG, UW Miracles. I don't have fast kill condition and longer we play more board control they have...
- What are the best sideboards cards against blue-based decks and what to side Out?
- Issue with Ring/Needle is that they don't destroy key cards! They just lock them until they will get Disenchant-ed/Explostion-ed/...
- Elspeth & Isochron+Helix cannot kill opponent fast. I think I need some more win-conditions
- Has somebody tested in past Entreat the Angels?? I saw I think only one decklist with it and that was Blue-based parfait as I remember. I played a while Luminarch but without any hard/soft lock it was not very well. Maybe in Sideboard ...
- I don't wanna go with Pyroblat/REB maindeck as those cards are dead against other deck-types. Anyway, why Pyroblast/REB are prefered than Silence? Is 1-2x Silence in Sideboard not good against blue?
- what about Mishra's Factory?
- what about Exalted Angels?
- would be 4x Banishing Stroke enough?
- do we still need Zuran Orb or Goblin Trenches to help Land Tax to reduce lands?? I'm going to test it without these cards...
After some testing yesterday, I finished for now the decklist as I don't know what to add/remove more. I will play few tournaments with this build and see how it works...
Legacy Parfait v8.1
LANDS: 25 (19 + 4 + 2)
9x Plains
1x Mountain - for Land Tax
4x City of Traitors
1x Plateau - for Tithe
2x Arid Mesa - find red mana source and shuffle effect really help Rack/Top
1x Buried Ruin - seems to be very good in game 2&3, more testing needed. Originaly was Kor Haven, let's see after testing what will stay...
1x Ancient Den - from time to time I really need one more mana so I use E.tutor for that. I used to play Chrome Mox, but without Charbelcher this seems better.
4x Mox Diamond
2x Tithe - can find Plateau and is active when Land Tax is in-active. And Rack/Sensei shuffle effect.
KILL CONDITIONS: 6
1x Entreat the Angels - primary against control decks, not yet tested. Not very good under Humility, but let's see which matchups will improve...
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Lightning Helix - give me some turns, seems good under scepter against control decks
OTHER:
3x Land Tax
3x Scroll Rack
1x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Humility
1x Moat
2x Isochron Scepter
4x Orim's Chant
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Terminus
1x Wrath of God
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Pithing Needle
2x Noxious Revival - very good with miracles...
SIDEBOARD:
4x Leyline of Sanctity (burn/discard/combo)
1x Pithing Needle (combo/control/sometimes aggro - especially manlands)
1x Abolish (control/combo)
1x Humility (aggro/some control)
1x Ethersworn Canonist - 2nd changed for 1x Silence (combo, some aggro, some control)
1x Powder Keg (combo, aggro, some control)
1x Moat (combo, aggro, some control)
1x Blood Moon - needs more testing (UW, BUG, RUG and other 3color decks)
2x Silence (control/combo) (maybe I will cut one for 1x Helm of Obedience) - originally was 2x Pyroblast
1x Aura of Silence (affinity, control) - I tried Seal of Cleansing, but Aura is better against Affinity and slow down all Explosions, Pernicous, ... but one mana more expensive...
1x Rest in Peace (RUG, Dredge and other grave/flashback decks. With Helm another kill condition. Originaly it was Relic of Progenitus)
Now I have against Blue-based decks 2x Silence, 1x Blood Moon, 1x Ethersworn Canonist, 1x Rest in Peace + 1x Pithing Needle, 1x Abolish, 1x Aura of Silence, 1x Powder Keg. I definitely need more testing against blue-based decks!
I tried to side in against UW miracles 2x Canonist and it was quite ok... (shut down Snapcaster, Brainstorm response and support my 2nd artifact spell in one turn)
Another anti-Blue side tips:
Oblivion Ring, another Powder Keg, another Seal of Cleansing / Aura of Silence, another Pithing Needle, Runed Halo, Story Circle, Defense Grid, Suppression Field, Nevermore, Luminarch Ascesion, ...
Thanks for your help and tips.
How does your main list look?
Also, since I am not running Goblin Charbelcher as a win condition (I'm using Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience), I can be more liberated with my lands.
First, I started using Lotus Vale and Ghost Quarter to lower my land count without sacrificing the mana they produce. On top of that I switched my maindecked Crystal Vein with City of Traitor.
At first I was happy with Extraplanar Lens but when the cat was out of the bag, Extraplanar Lens also becomes a target. Everything from Abrupt Decay to Green Sun's Zenith (Qasali Pridemage) became a hazard to Lens. It doesn't help that it took over my turn three play (as it doesn't do anything right away unlike my other tapout plays).
With that said, I started using Lotus Vale to decrease my land count without sacrificing my turn three play, while helping Land Tax trigger.
Yes Wasteland exists but you can preemptively Pithing Needle it.
What I am looking for right now is a "bomb" 2cc permanent. I'm thinking of Island Sanctuary among other things, Though the main is still on the works.
I did update of my previous post with decklist and some comments.
what about Entreat the Angels, Mishra's Factory and my other questions - no one has tested those cards??
Entreat the Angels - I like it and I don't like it. Its great in the late game and can give you a win out of nowhere. But like what you said, it doesn't play well with Humility and it can easily be answered, especially against the control mirror (opposing Terminus do exist). Why current choice for "oops I win" card would be Helm of Obedience + Rest in Peace. Rest in Peace not only hoses graveyard strategies but shrinks a lot of the format's premier beaters.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
The only good thing I see with Entreat is that it takes less space.
Mishra's Factory - The thing I do not like about it is its a land. You want to run minimal land count to keep Land Tax active. Though this is all theory.
I started playing mono-w version since land tax was unbanned and all the time Entreat the Angels has been performing as the best wincon for me. Elspeth and the Cursed Scroll on the second place. But I havn't tested Helm yet.
- So how I'm thinking now with Helm of Obedience+Rest in Peace combo win-kill:
I have expectations related Helm+RIP, BUT I'm a bit sceptic how good it can be in our mono-white decklists. Yes, We can protect combo by casting with O.Chant/Silence or maybe Pyroblasts, but we are limited with board protection. I think that best implemantation of this combo is in UW control, they can simply better protect by casting and on board.
Based on what I wrote above, I don't like/want to have only one kill condition in the deck. Well, this combo is not as fragile as Servant/Grindstone was, but it can be still stoped by lots of things. I see it every 2nd & 3rd game, how aggressive they attack my scepters. It takes 4-5 slots, for that I can have 2-3 different win conditions. Several years ago in Vintage I was not worried to play as kill only 3x Goblin Charbelcher as I had 5-8 art/ench hate in main + 3 argivian finds. Now we have reduced our non-creatures board control only to 1-2 needle & 1-2oblivion ring, I think that's not enough for protection... after sideboard we have more, but they have more hate...
Related to my decklist, I agree, that RIP is very good by itself, that's why I'm going to run it in sideboard, but I don't want to put in into main, as in my meta I see dredge/reanimator very rarely. There are RUG decks, but only because of them it doesn't make sence to put them main.
- Related to Entreat the Angels:
That's the same situation as with Terminus. We use only 3-4 Scroll Racks to put them back on top of library, but blue had 3-4 top, 4brainstorms, 3 jace + eventualy ponder to keep it there. I really hate Terminus in opening hand, that's why I still run 1 wrath of god main. Simply sometimes I have problems to cast Terminus for miracle cost. Only difference is that Angels are not needed in early game, so normaly I should have Scroll Rack in play. Other things with Angels is that I don't need to go on 7-8lands in play, normaly I stop on 4-6 and than put City (depends on early City/Opponent/board situation)
@ (nameless one): in your last build you have 18 artifacts. Some time ago, I have tested Mox Opal, was not that bad, but my build runs less artifacts. Have you/someone tested that card?
Today I tested Lotus Vale too, is quite good, but I'm affraid of Wastelands. I can use Needle, but than I can miss her for something more important in late game.
General question:
I did today some testing for tomorrow's bigger local event and I found out that Entreat would not help me much in my critical matchups (BUG,RUG,UW). Too mana intensive with saving mana for counterspells/chant and bad synergy with Humility & City of Traitors.
So I have one free slot. I want to add more permanent-hate cards, so I'm thinking about one of: Aura of Silence / 2nd Oblivion Ring / 2nd Pithing Needle.
O.Ring seems to be better in first game, Aura / Needle after sideboard. But as I said before, I don't like Ring for non-destructive ability.
Aura is better against Serenity, Pernicous, E.Explosive, ManLands, Affinity and MUD. For the rest of ench/art is slightly better too, as it destroy those permanents + delay their casting times.
O.Ring is pros is flexibility as it covers creatures & planeswalkers. Cons - only hide effect, which after reset really hurts (Vindicate, Abrupt Decay, Disenchant, Krosan Grip, Maelstrom Pulse, ...).
I have removed all my Auras as meta was strong aggro/storm, but now controls are back (at least in my meta) What do you think? Maindeck Aura vs O.Ring
EDIT: As I put one Aura of Silence from sideboard to main, I put 1x Luminarch Ascesion into the sideboard instead.
@ K-Run: I see you have one in sideboard. Have you chance to test it? Will it survive 4-5 turns to get active or it was never usefull?
On Mox Opal:
I actually haven't. It's funny because I have a playset of them I got for my MUD deck.
Being on the deck, 18 is an alright number. I should try it as a two of but my artifact count has actually gone down. I've removed Extraplanar Lens because of Lotus Vale and Tangle Wire since its less effective.
On Lotus Vale:
Yes, Wasteland sucks but I think as long as the deck revolves around the 2cc curve, it still can survive on one or two lands (in junction with Moxen).
@ Taxman's one slot:
I would use Pithing Needle. Jace, the Mindsculptor, AEther Vial, Sensei's Divining Top and Qasali Pridemage are some of the things I hate seeing on my opponent's board.
On thr other notr, if only Balancing Act was worded the same way as Balance/Restore Balance....