[Deck] Spring Tide

1) If the Gro player names Snap, you can still go off without great difficulties. If you wait until turn 5 or 6 (Gro won't kill you that fast), mana is not the problem anymore. At this point, it doesn't matter if three of your untap spells can't be played.
2) That's what makes Gro not an autowin, that's for sure. But the matchup is not as bad as you might think, since Spring Tide CAN fight through Gro's counters before they put enough pressure on you. Sometimes (quite often), Gro doesn't have multiple FoWs by turn 5. If the Gro player holds a Daze and a FoW on turn 5, you can almost always fight through that. You just use Merchant Scroll to find something like FoW or a second High Tide (depends on which one is needed, I would tutor for High Tide most the time, though), counter/respond to the FoW and pay one mana for the Daze... And win.

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Originally Posted by Lukas Preuss

2) That's what makes Gro not an autowin, that's for sure. But the matchup is not as bad as you might think, since Spring Tide CAN fight through Gro's counters before they put enough pressure on you.

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It's quite possible that my experience is skewed from never having played a competent Spring Tide player (oh, I've played the matchup, but never lost). But I've never had any difficulty applying adequate pressure with a decent(2-3) counterwall for long enough to win. Again, this may be because I'm playing white gro, which has a significantly better game vs. combo than red.

Let me clerify my previous statement. For the Gro power to have Counterspell (not Force or Daze, the actual spell Counterspell) online, they have to have two blue untapped, which doesn't usually happen on turn 2, as they are using it for Cantrips and Creatures. If they know the matchup, they may leave the mana open, but usually they don't, meaning that Counterspell isn't always active until turn 3 or 4, and 8 counterspells, 4 of which aren't hard, is easier to fight through.

I don't think this matchup is amazing for Spring Tide by any stretch of the imagination, but it is winnable, and certainly a lot better than many people seem to think. It requires a good bit of playskill, knowledge of the deck, and some amount of luck, but it can certainly be done.

That said, are there any new ideas for innovating the deck? I don't like Decklists to get stagnant or anything :) I'm hoping for something out of the next set, maybe something we could splash for (UG and UW Guilds in the next one) although I'm not sure I'd want to do that. We'll see.

High Tide is symmetrical. The Gro player would have to completely tap out in order to be unable to cast Counterspell. If he has Force and Counterspell with one Island untapped, and tries to Force the Tide, he is almost certainly playing incorrectly.

So is Muddle the Mixture worth a spot in side board or main deck? It can fetch the stuff Merchant Scroll can't. Plus it can be a counter if needed.

I am really really sorry about my grammar i was really losing it last night:laugh:
also i do not know/if this thing has spell check.

Please familiarize yourself with the site's rules and follow them. Thanks. - Zilla

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Originally Posted by subway-guy

so is muddle the mixture worth a spot in side board or main deck. it can fetch the stuff merchant scroll can't.

i am really really sorry about my grammar i was really losing it last night:laugh:
also i do not know/if this thing has spell check.

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I don't think it's necessary, since Merchant Scroll gets you everything you need, although it doesn't get you every spell in the deck. If you need a draw spell, go for Meditate, if you want to see an untap effect, tutor for Turnabout, and so on.

Muddle the Mixture is not a bad idea, but I don't think it should replace anything in the deck, since the deck doesn't need it and it runs smooth without it. I haven't tested Muddle the Mixture, though, so this is just my assumption.


Oh, and I don't think this thing has spell check... you could write your comments in Microsoft Word before posting in this forum, if you think you need a spell check function... :)

Oh Lego_Army_Man you want a u/g Spring Tide deck well the card pool includes but not limited to: rampant growth as well as rude awakening (not early harvest because of GG in its cost.) for more untap spells which might not be needed and the best card exploration in the u/g build to totally excel past any magic rule. I have tested it on Magic Work Station and it can be very explosive due to its massive exceleration. But can also be slowed due to the wasteland weakness(obviosly) and a less amount of cantrips. Very solid build.:laugh: and it might even improve on its control match because it is very hard for a control deck to counter two spells on the draw on the it’s first turn. Just a thought


Please familiarize yourself with the site's rules and follow them. Thanks. - Zilla

I wasn't saying that I wanted a seperate deck (like the Heartbeat/Harvest decks in extended, which might be a different possibility) but rather hoping that Dissension would give us a couple nice U/G or U/W cards that could fit in here. Who knows, maybe something will come that makes Heartbeat Harvest good enough to play, but I wouldn't count on it.

This deck is not a Heartbeat/Harvest deck, in the way that its played. Solidarity is much MUCH closer to Extended Heartbeat than this deck is. This deck is more comparable to the Desire decks of old Extended. We don't need mana ramping, the majority of our untap effects untap 2 lands. What we need is much better cantripping, as getting the Tide + Cloud or double Tide is essential to going off turn 3.

And if we need another untap effect, we would go with the Serpent dude from Saga that untaps 5 lands for 5 cost.
-Slay

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV EDIT: Sorry, I was responding to the guy that posted above you but left the reply window open when I got some dinner.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood me as saying that this is anything similar to Heartbeat/Harvest. I was saying that is a completely different deck, and not that we should be going that way, or anything to that effect.

I agree that a replacement for Sleight of Hand would be great, but I think I'd be equally happy for something that I would never have though of. If any card that is printed in the next year makes the deck, I think I'll be happy :)

I see the only real problem Spring Tide has is the fact that it might just die on its opponent’s turn with out you knowing (like four Berserks in a row). I know what you are saying Lego_Army_Man and Slay that green is bad but it takes your aggro match to a whole new level it can be boarded in, wished for and tutored out it is called ‘Moments Peace’! Need a few extra turns against Goblins or Affinity you got it. I know I am going to get burned saying that a good player knows when you are going to die but it happens if it is triple Goblin Piledriver with haste or a Giant Growth.

I have tried out Muddle the Mixture and its great! It is a counter when wanted can tutor well as said before and the best part is watching your opponents face when he/she says “WHAT IS THAT!”

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Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare

Turn 3 Is bad as well, especially if backed with Force or Swords/Bolt.

There are 2 things wrong with this sentiment. 1) Snap is the first card you name with Mage when you know you're playing vs. Spring Tide. It gets a 2 for one in effect, because it shuts off your removal and untap at once. 2) The point of Gro is that you can't play through the counters fast enough in the face of the clock. If you try to go off quickly, Daze owns you. If you wait, Bears and Geese kill you.

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Obviously trying to win on turn 2 would be moronic (I suppose unless you have the god hand and they mull to 3 and drop a basic forest on turn 1 its ok...but lets just say the odds of that are not too high =P). Here is the general rule for deciding when to go off: Figure out the approx. number of counters relevant to you (Do they have CS mana up {Taking before/after tide into account, considering it is often easier to fight through a post-tide counter}? Can you pay for the Daze? Are the odds of them holding a Force AND a blue card very small?) that they should have drawn (cards seen*number of counters/60), add one, and figure out what your chances with this number are, compared to the risks of walking into their counterwall of course ;) . That would be the simplified version of the math you should be doing =P (I would assume something like 4 FoW, 3 CS, 3 Daze btw).

In other words, going off on turn 3 CAN be a strong option, but fairly often, you will be waiting it out till the turn before they kill you and maximizing your odds to be the superior course of action.

This match-up is pretty strong since, despite having disruption and a clock, there is a decent middle ground where your counters run out and I am not yet dead. I can also take advantage of any holes you should leave in your counterwall, provided I can manage to spot them/test for them when the risk is minimal.

@Naming Snap with Mage: I really hope you do =P This would be an example of trying to be overly clever and thus making a horrible play. If you shut off Snap, you are taking out 30% of my untap effects, and considering I have good control over which untap effects I will be hitting, the loss will be far from terrible, and going off not exactly difficult. If you name tide, I need an answer in order to win, and you semi-duress me as well, by forcing me to waste one of my untap effects to begin with.

@Muddle the Mixture: The cards it can get are actually fairly limited for 3(!) mana, and the counter can't stop much of the "oops I win now" situations you referred to, as well as Meddling Mages and such. It just isn't needed considering Scroll already acts as FoW 5-8 in several respects.

P.S. Damn you all for dragging me away from SC3 *shakes fist*
Hope I didn't leave too much out, and that I was somewhat coherent.

Would a black splash for Spring Tide be a good option? It gives you Duress and Bubbling Muck witch can really help to fight a wall of counters to its flexibility is just great! Why is a High Tide not in the Wish board? It allows you to have a guarantee of High Tide on turn four and it really doesn’t take anything away from the deck. I have also made an effort to main deck one Brain Freeze since it can be tutored for in a tight situation and doesn’t clump up your hand (most of the time).

Thoughts!

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Originally Posted by subway-guy

Would a black splash for Spring Tide be a good option? It gives you Duress and Bubbling Muck

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Bubbling Muck would not be such a great idea in spring tide. Since it is essentially an inferior high tide. While duress is a great card, it costs more mana than using force of will to protect your combo. Force of will also doesn't require you to ... uh... play black. Playing a black splash would allow you to play Tendrils for the superior kill, but that's a different deck altogether.

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Originally Posted by subway-guy

Why is a High Tide not in the Wish board?

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Because that would suck.

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Originally Posted by subway-guy

I have also made an effort to main deck one Brain Freeze since it can be tutored for in a tight situation and doesn’t clump up your hand (most of the time).

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Knock your socks off.

While I understand how the deck runs and everything else, I'm suprized that Palinchron isn't included (even as a one-of). Palinchron/High Tide is a robust infinate mana engine that has been used successfully since Palinchron came out. It can be used to stroke people out, etc. Maybe storm is a little unneccessary for a sorcery based high tide deck.

EDIT: if this was previously mentioned, I didn't exactly read the whole thread. I'll let someone else cover my lazyness.

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Originally Posted by FakeSpam

I'm suprized that Palinchron isn't included

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It was mentioned before, but we can do it again. Let's do the math with Palinchron. He costs 7, and 4 to return him, and will untap all of your lands. That means you need to create 11 mana to generate infinite storm, and 12 mana to also generate infinite mana. With 3 lands out, that means you need all 4 High Tides, with 4 or 5 lands out you need 3 High Tides, and with 6 lands out you need two High Tides. The deck usually goes off with 3 or 4 Lands in play, and in that situation, with 3 or 4 High Tides, you can already create infinite storm and infinite mana respectively with Capsize out of the board. That doesn't take up a mainboard slot, so is better.

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Originally Posted by FakeSpam

EDIT: if this was previously mentioned, I didn't exactly read the whole thread. I'll let someone else cover my lazyness.

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It is mentioned right in the first post... you know, the one that talks about card choices, and stuff..? :)

I'll just repost the part about Palinchron:

Palinchron-- Palinchron isn't in the deck for the same reason Brain Freeze isn't in the maindeck. It is useless until you've basically already won. If you have enough mana to get the Palinchron going, you don't need it. Also, the Capsize combo works a lot better as you can wish for it when needed (note that the deck's main win conditions are the draw X spells). Palinchron will be dead if he is in your hand when you need early combo pieces.

I was fooling around with a deck similar to this i.e. sorcery speed solidarity and I was having some success with uba mask. The card by itself seams very weak and actually bad however I used cards which normally are bad due to a draw back these included breakthrough and careful study. Both of which punish the hand but with the mask out your hand should be 0. So effectively the deck plays 4 ancestral recalls (brainstorms) 4 ancestral recalls on crack (breakthrough) and a few other smaller trips but nothing that is less then 1 card for 1 mana. It was a sloppy build without much refinement but it proved fun and more consistent than one may think however it did present the problem of not winning turn 3-4 but 5 and 6 with a resolved mask is very easy.

Here is the shoddy list that I am sure can be improved on

Island x14
Flooded strand x4
Polluted delta x2

The mana:
High tide x4
Turnabout x4

The win:
Brain freeze x2
Uba mask x4

Protection/tricks:
Remand x4

Draw:
Brainstorm x4
Breakthrough x4
Careful study x4
Ideas unbound x4
Serum visions x4
Compulsive research x2

Like I said not the best list but I found it pretty constant and using uba mask may be pretty useful

Any combo that averages turn 5-6 whose only protection spell is Remand is going to 0-x any tournament it sees play in.
-Slay

re: Palinchron

Yeah, I did read the first page or so.. I guess I missed that. Oh well. Makes sense.

Uh ya crazedloon this deck will not work because Spring Tide is a beast on its own. It does not need to rely on a artifact to win as well Spring Tide can win on turn 5-6 really easily as Slay said it needs to be faster. But neat idea

Oh and I have done some testing with Remand in place of Slight of Hand
because a time walk that reads draw a card is very very good and I do not think it will hurt the mana base to much for what your getting.