[Deck] Dark Depths

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Originally Posted by Ingo

I agree that you should not run life from the loam if its just for recurring the combopieces. But you can integrate a sort of loam package (like in loampox, or other loamdecks).
Cards often run together are Wasteland (ofcourse), Punishing Fire, Grove of the Burnwillows, Cyclelands (forgotten cave, barren moor for cardadvantage), Mox diamond, Gamble/entomb, Burning wish (3 loams maindeck, 1 in board), Devastating dreams, Raven’s crime, Worm Harvest

Loam is very synergetic with PFire/Grove. By dredging you get these in the yard, and have recurrable creaturekill. Pfire handles DRS very well, especially with gamble to tutor for it. Gamble also gets you your pieces, but with loam as backup (random discard). It’s very true that DRS is everywhere, but the advantage is also that players pack less gravehate in the sideboard because they run DRS main.

I like playing with loam, but you must feel comfortable with this strategy. Playing a loambased deck though, has the advantage that you can retrieve your combopieces.
But as you pointed out, the graveyard is vulnerable, so I also include Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library (especially when your opponent swords the token, you have 20 extra life to pay for carddrawing). I’ll also test Faithless looting.

Further cards are disruption (inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, sinkhole, abrupt decay). In the poxvariant there’s also smallpox, that gives a very strong manadenialplan along with sinkhole, devastating dreams, croprotated wastelands or Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and Loam recurring wasteland. But the reason I am dropping smallpox (and some part of the manadenialplan) is that you can’t run Dark Confidant along with it. I also run Raging Ravine and Tomb of Urami as a backup plan. So this is what I’ll test (no sideboard included yet):

2 Dark Depths
2 Thespian’s Stage
4 wasteland
1 Raging Ravine
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 badlands
2 bayou
4 verdant catacombs
2 Barren Moor
1 Forgotten Cave
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tomb of Urami

3 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
4 Gamble
3 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Confidant
2 Sylvan Library
2 Faithless Looting
4 inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Mox diamond

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I agree that Depths combo makes the decks you mentioned better. I dont however think that even after those decks are impoved they compare to the version I've come up with.

I've had the unfortunate task of testing playing against Loam strategies and almost an exact list like yours. I think i played 2 lands.deck matchups and 3 loam deck with pfire. I lost 1 match out of those. It was to loam/pfire. Loam is very slow to get started and sometimes the game is over before they ever cast it.

I wish you luck in your testing. However I would suggest that you play a handful of games with the list i've come up with so you can compare.



On a seperate note, Someone who was helping test the deck picked it up and said they were having some trouble with it. It requires a lot of knowledge about the format and their decklists. I Can detail certain situations and how to play around them if people would like as they are not necessarily intuitive. Just ask me to if you are interested and i'll work on a post. Sometimes you have to bait your opponent with certain spells and land drops. Forcing them to use their resources in a manner thats not the main focus allows you to take advantage of the INSTANT crop rotations. Knowing which lands to play and fetch for is also another important aspect. Often times it depends heavily on if you have an urborg or not. If you have an urbog, savannah is the best to search for. Without urborg bayou and scrubland are the best to search for because BB is required for Hexmage. DRS can often provide the 1 colored mana you dont have but he can't produce BB. There are only 5 fetchland targets but there are 7 fetchlands...seems odd however with the use of urborg its not always necessary to use the fetches...consider them swamps.

The main goal is combo. Assembling it is often your first priority. However, dont neglect your aggro aspect and forget to attack with idle creatures.

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Originally Posted by apple713

I agree that Depths combo makes the decks you mentioned better. I dont however think that even after those decks are impoved they compare to the version I've come up with.

I've had the unfortunate task of testing playing against Loam strategies and almost an exact list like yours. I think i played 2 lands.deck matchups and 3 loam deck with pfire. I lost 1 match out of those. It was to loam/pfire. Loam is very slow to get started and sometimes the game is over before they ever cast it.

I wish you luck in your testing. However I would suggest that you play a handful of games with the list i've come up with so you can compare.

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Seriously, have some common decency, or don't post at all.

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Originally Posted by Ingo

Seriously, have some common decency, or don't post at all.

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What part of my opinion offended you?

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Originally Posted by apple713

What part of my opinion offended you?

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You are very welcome to give some constructive criticism.
Your 'opinion' wasn't.

I also just edited my response, as it wasn't respectful as wel.
Your statement that playtesting against loam is an unfortunate task, can't be meant in a positive way.
Perhaps unintended, so I propose to stop this bickering and go back to discuss the deck.

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Originally Posted by Ingo

You are very welcome to give some constructive criticism.
Your 'opinion' wasn't.

I also just edited my response, as it wasn't respectful as wel.
Your statement that playtesting against loam is an unfortunate task, can't be meant in a positive way.
Perhaps unintended, so I propose to stop this bickering and go back to discuss the deck.

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I'll rephrase, playtesting against loam is unfortunate because it's the longest most grindy matchup you'll have to play with this deck. I'm not a fan of long grindy matchups which is why im trying to play a combo deck. There was no negative derrogatory tones intended.

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Originally Posted by apple713

I'll rephrase, playtesting against loam is unfortunate because it's the longest most grindy matchup you'll have to play with this deck. I'm not a fan of long grindy matchups which is why im trying to play a combo deck. There was no negative derrogatory tones intended.

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Okay then, forgive and forget.

You should give loam strategies more credit though, even if you hate playing against them. The only high ending deck (17th) in a SCG-tournament with Depths/Stage until now has been the landsdeck of Kurt Spiess, 17th (I posted the link before).

I don't think Stage/depths is very suited for all-in combo, because it's slow and vulnerable. It is slow because you need to assemble your pieces, play them, sac them, and then give your opponent another turn before you attack for 20 (which could be blocked as well). It is vulnerable, because it involves lands (vulnerable to wasteland) and dies to swords to plowshares and Karakas. And if it dies, you've set yourself 1 or 2 landdrops back. So even without sideboarding, almost every deck has some preboard answers to the combo.
My interest lies in the fact that it is uncounterable though, and that it is abusable in a lands-involving strategy.

I do not think we will be able to give eachother much advice, since were looking for a different decktype with the combo (control-combo versus allin combo). Although your build contains many controlelements as well (Thalia, DRS, mother of runes), so maybe im wrong in putting you on allin combo. The only card in red I could advice you on is Gamble, as it is a tutor for 1 mana, for whatever you desire. And it's downside is neglectible, since everything you desire (which are lands and loam) recurs from the yard.

Your ideas in building a control/combo deck would be very much appreciated. But there's no use in trying to convince playing allin-combo, since it is not what I'm looking for.

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Originally Posted by Ingo

Okay then, forgive and forget.

You should give loam strategies more credit though, even if you hate playing against them. The only high ending deck (17th) in a SCG-tournament with Depths/Stage until now has been the landsdeck of Kurt Spiess, 17th (I posted the link before).

I don't think Stage/depths is very suited for all-in combo, because it's slow and vulnerable. It is slow because you need to assemble your pieces, play them, sac them, and then give your opponent another turn before you attack for 20 (which could be blocked as well). It is vulnerable, because it involves lands (vulnerable to wasteland) and dies to swords to plowshares and Karakas. And if it dies, you've set yourself 1 or 2 landdrops back. So even without sideboarding, almost every deck has some preboard answers to the combo.
My interest lies in the fact that it is uncounterable though, and that it is abusable in a lands-involving strategy.

I do not think we will be able to give eachother much advice, since were looking for a different decktype with the combo (control-combo versus allin combo). Although your build contains many controlelements as well (Thalia, DRS, mother of runes), so maybe im wrong in putting you on allin combo. The only card in red I could advice you on is Gamble, as it is a tutor for 1 mana, for whatever you desire. And it's downside is neglectible, since everything you desire (which are lands and loam) recurs from the yard.

Your ideas in building a control/combo deck would be very much appreciated. But there's no use in trying to convince playing allin-combo, since it is not what I'm looking for.

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I never said Loam strategies are bad. I think loam is a great deck. It's incredibly attricious and has answerrs to lots of aggro/control decks. I think it lacks in the combo area. It is a little slower than i would like for my purposes but if loam strategy is your thing I would highly recommend using the depths stage combo in your deck.

as i pointed out in a previous post the deck can win t3 t4 and t5 usually. I can do so while being protected by mom which can also push the token through blockers. Karakas is a potential problem but it can be wastelanded and pithing needled. Swords typically isnt an issue because they cast it on other creatures...The entire deck poses threats and warrents a swords. If you dont swords the mom she'll protect the token. if you do swords the mom you dont have one for the token. If you swords the dark confidant, not open for the token. If you save it for the token then i'll draw more cards to protect against swords like discard.

we are talking about very different decks and i dont think there will be much crossover between our strategies.

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Originally Posted by apple713

I never said Loam strategies are bad. I think loam is a great deck. It's incredibly attricious and has answerrs to lots of aggro/control decks. I think it lacks in the combo area. It is a little slower than i would like for my purposes but if loam strategy is your thing I would highly recommend using the depths stage combo in your deck.

as i pointed out in a previous post the deck can win t3 t4 and t5 usually. I can do so while being protected by mom which can also push the token through blockers. Karakas is a potential problem but it can be wastelanded and pithing needled. Swords typically isnt an issue because they cast it on other creatures...The entire deck poses threats and warrents a swords. If you dont swords the mom she'll protect the token. if you do swords the mom you dont have one for the token. If you swords the dark confidant, not open for the token. If you save it for the token then i'll draw more cards to protect against swords like discard.

we are talking about very different decks and i dont think there will be much crossover between our strategies.

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Unfortunately, there aren't many posts from others lately, so were kinda stuck together.:smile:

But on a serious account, playing with mom, thalia and DRS, could be a very good idea (I play Thalia too in my goblins - she's that good against combo).
Have you tested phyrexian revoker - it's like a maindeckable Pithing Needle on a stick.
I do think the best way of hating out wasteland, is simply running (recurring) wasteland yourself. That deals with Karakas too. That would bring us back with a loamdiscussion though.
And one last idea, you could negate the carddisadvantage of crop rotation by running 2 flagstones of Trokair (and ofcourse at least 1 plane).

Edit: I don't like the pithing needle in the sideboard. Don't get me wrong, it's a great card against specific cards, like Grizzlebrand or Sneak Attack, as it's meant to hate out your opponents strategy. If you run it as hate against wasteland though, you invest slots, mana and perhaps a turn in not loosing against this commonly run card, instead of packing pinpoint hate. The maindeck should be wasteland proof instead.

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Originally Posted by Ingo

Unfortunately, there aren't many posts from others lately, so were kinda stuck together.:smile:

But on a serious account, playing with mom, thalia and DRS, could be a very good idea (I play Thalia too in my goblins - she's that good against combo).
Have you tested phyrexian revoker - it's like a maindeckable Pithing Needle on a stick.
I do think the best way of hating out wasteland, is simply running (recurring) wasteland yourself. That deals with Karakas too. That would bring us back with a loamdiscussion though.
And one last idea, you could negate the carddisadvantage of crop rotation by running 2 flagstones of Trokair (and ofcourse at least 1 plane).

Edit: I don't like the pithing needle in the sideboard. Don't get me wrong, it's a great card against specific cards, like Grizzlebrand or Sneak Attack, as it's meant to hate out your opponents strategy. If you run it as hate against wasteland though, you invest slots, mana and perhaps a turn in not loosing against this commonly run card, instead of packing pinpoint hate. The maindeck should be wasteland proof instead.

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To answer your question about pithing needle. Its good because I can cast it with 1 land and dont get locked out on t2 or shortly after. Its also one of the few disruption cards that can counter the combo. There are ways to play around it so its not terrible. Pithing needle may be dropped because of things i mention below.

I think I've answered the problem.

The deck's worst matchups have been deathblade, D&T, Maverick, and sometimes miracles. The common idea from them is that they all have access to the following

swords, wasteland, karakas, lingering souls. The other issue is pushing the token through blockers which i could not find an answer for...UNTIL NOW

Instead of attacking with the token, we fling it with the perfect spell rite of consumption

here is why it is perfect. It does not give your opponent an opportunity to respond. The only thing they can do is counter the rite of consumption. Considering the bulk of those decks don't even run blue its not something to worry about.

The reason they dont have time to respond is because once the token is made, if you made it on your turn when you had priority, priority passes back to you once it enters play. Since sacrificing the token is a cost of casting the spell it is paid before the opponent has time to respond. Once rites is put onto the stack your opponent gets a chance to respond. By that time counterspell is all that can save them.

This strategy nullifies all removal strategies, and having to attack through blockers. It's perfect. There is good news and bad news. Bad news is that it adds another card to create the combo. The good news is that you have time to assemble the combo because those decks are aggro decks and you have time to assemble it.

The even better news is that this strategy allows us to cut white entirely from the deck. This would increase the strength of the manabase so it doesnt get blown out by blood moon. The only issue from here is that white was your support against Game 1 combo, and more from the board. If black and green have alternative answers to combo comparable to thalia, and ethersworn canonist we can cut white and move to a solid GB version giving and lose nothing. Yes i understand that black has discard but it also gets blown out to leyline. If they land a leyline and you only have discard to disrupt them you are hozed. This would be the final obstacle i think for the deck.

Against decks with counter spells you maintain the strategy of playing the lands and attacking with the token because using the lands to make the token is uncounterable.

These changes would allow me to rework the sideboard completely.


EDIT*** - I have had time to test rite of consumption and it is pretty stellar against the above mentioned decks. It really gets you out of jams because the decks it's used against are option less to it. I've decided to add 2 to the main deck just because drawing it in other matchups isnt terrible becaause it can ensure a victory instead of having to worry about removal or targeting it.

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Originally Posted by apple713

To answer your question about pithing needle. Its good because I can cast it with 1 land and dont get locked out on t2 or shortly after. Its also one of the few disruption cards that can counter the combo. There are ways to play around it so its not terrible. Pithing needle may be dropped because of things i mention below.

I think I've answered the problem.

The deck's worst matchups have been deathblade, D&T, Maverick, and sometimes miracles. The common idea from them is that they all have access to the following

swords, wasteland, karakas, lingering souls. The other issue is pushing the token through blockers which i could not find an answer for...UNTIL NOW

Instead of attacking with the token, we fling it with the perfect spell rite of consumption

here is why it is perfect. It does not give your opponent an opportunity to respond. The only thing they can do is counter the rite of consumption. Considering the bulk of those decks don't even run blue its not something to worry about.

The reason they dont have time to respond is because once the token is made, if you made it on your turn when you had priority, priority passes back to you once it enters play. Since sacrificing the token is a cost of casting the spell it is paid before the opponent has time to respond. Once rites is put onto the stack your opponent gets a chance to respond. By that time counterspell is all that can save them.

This strategy nullifies all removal strategies, and having to attack through blockers. It's perfect. There is good news and bad news. Bad news is that it adds another card to create the combo. The good news is that you have time to assemble the combo because those decks are aggro decks and you have time to assemble it.

The even better news is that this strategy allows us to cut white entirely from the deck. This would increase the strength of the manabase so it doesnt get blown out by blood moon. The only issue from here is that white was your support against Game 1 combo, and more from the board. If black and green have alternative answers to combo comparable to thalia, and ethersworn canonist we can cut white and move to a solid GB version giving and lose nothing. Yes i understand that black has discard but it also gets blown out to leyline. If they land a leyline and you only have discard to disrupt them you are hozed. This would be the final obstacle i think for the deck.

Against decks with counter spells you maintain the strategy of playing the lands and attacking with the token because using the lands to make the token is uncounterable.

These changes would allow me to rework the sideboard completely.

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Where do you wanna go with this deck? You can definitely go G/B, but it takes you away from all-in combo, or the BGW list with controllish creatures.
Do you wanna play full combo, or rather an aggro or controlbuild with combofinish.

Rite of consumption is a nice idea, but like you said, another extra card in the combochain.

You shouldn't worry too much about leyline with black disruption.
Playing leyline means at least 1 less card in hand dedicated to combo (decreased with each mull), increasing your chances of comboing first.
Best disruption is a mixed package, besides handhate you have access to landdestruction through sinkhole and recurring wastes, and even nether void to lock things up.
It makes your crop rotations multifunctional, as they can be wasteland 5-8, or instant tutors for Tabernacle.
The downside of this G/B plan is that your disruption isn't creaturebased, so no pressure from that side.

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Originally Posted by Ingo

Where do you wanna go with this deck? You can definitely go G/B, but it takes you away from all-in combo, or the BGW list with controllish creatures.
Do you wanna play full combo, or rather an aggro or controlbuild with combofinish.

Rite of consumption is a nice idea, but like you said, another extra card in the combochain.

You shouldn't worry too much about leyline with black disruption.
Playing leyline means at least 1 less card in hand dedicated to combo (decreased with each mull), increasing your chances of comboing first.
Best disruption is a mixed package, besides handhate you have access to landdestruction through sinkhole and recurring wastes, and even nether void to lock things up.
It makes your crop rotations multifunctional, as they can be wasteland 5-8, or instant tutors for Tabernacle.
The downside of this G/B plan is that your disruption isn't creaturebased, so no pressure from that side.

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i dont care whether this deck goes in terms of aggro / control or all in combo. I just want this deck to be a DTB. I think its very close because the delver / shardless matchups are a simple race and wasteland is the only real threat. Game 1 they wasteland a mana producer instead of depths and g2 you have pithing needle. elves is a race but much harder cause they are faster. S&T variants are particularly easy with the white version cause your hate bears slow them down AND put pressure on, with more support from the board. With the addition of rites it makes the remaining match ups singnificantly better to the point where you need 3 cards instead of 2...Thats the majority of the matchups in DTB.

Going GB actually is the All in combo version. I dont know why I havent thought of this before but Nether void is perfect Black SB against Combo. The only issue is that it cost 4. That may be too late. It's definatly worth a try tho. Nether void would completly lock them out better than both thalia and canonist.

I've had a chance to test a little with rite of consumption. Its not a 4 of unless you're on all in combo, but even then maybe only three. I'm currently testing the BWG with 2 rites main and 2 in the board. I have open slots now since I cut the dread of nights. Also Im testing taking out Hymn to tourach for inquistion of kozelick. The reason is because this deck only has a few hate based cards and it would rather pick 1 carefully than simple gain card advantage that might or might not help. For example, no matter what match im playing I'll usually take the removal from their hand because landing a dark confidant or sylvan library is critical in games where I dont have the combo waiting in hand.

I built the following list off the top of my head and played it at a little local legacy tourney. I lost the first round to a catastrophic misplay against jund (I discarded an extra dark Depths to mox diamond against and had them surgical extracted when I had the turn 2 combo in hand on the play arrgggh). But then crushed a 12 Post, Elves! and Deathblade deck.

It can play a pretty good fair game as a midrange Rock/Junk/Aggroloam deck and then switch to combo mode when you spot an opening. Hexmage is not the worst guy ever on the beat down and does a good job keeping little guys with Jittes from attacking (due to first strike) and can sac himself to kill a Jace if need be. It is pretty flexible and people really seemed confused how to play against it or sideboard against me.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Mox Diamond
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savanah
3 Dark Depths
3 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Engineered Plague
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Choke

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Originally Posted by beebles

I built the following list off the top of my head and played it at a little local legacy tourney. I lost the first round to a catastrophic misplay against jund (I discarded an extra dark Depths to mox diamond against and had them surgical extracted when I had the turn 2 combo in hand on the play arrgggh). But then crushed a 12 Post, Elves! and Deathblade deck.

It can play a pretty good fair game as a midrange Rock/Junk/Aggroloam deck and then switch to combo mode when you spot an opening. Hexmage is not the worst guy ever on the beat down and does a good job keeping little guys with Jittes from attacking (due to first strike) and can sac himself to kill a Jace if need be. It is pretty flexible and people really seemed confused how to play against it or sideboard against me.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Mox Diamond
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savanah
3 Dark Depths
3 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Engineered Plague
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Choke

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hexmage is great, i've found him to be an excellent creature as well.

How do you like Liliana in the deck? I find her to be terrible to play against, im not sure why you would want her in the main board. Get rid of duplicate lands? I guess with loam you have more expendible cards.

Did you find that knight was worth playing? With all the DRS around knight was always very small when i played with it. Also it seemed slower when used as a tutor for the combo.

Interesting take. Do you find that Mox diamond helps that much? It may be good to have so wasteland doenst rock you.

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Originally Posted by beebles

I built the following list off the top of my head and played it at a little local legacy tourney. I lost the first round to a catastrophic misplay against jund (I discarded an extra dark Depths to mox diamond against and had them surgical extracted when I had the turn 2 combo in hand on the play arrgggh). But then crushed a 12 Post, Elves! and Deathblade deck.

It can play a pretty good fair game as a midrange Rock/Junk/Aggroloam deck and then switch to combo mode when you spot an opening. Hexmage is not the worst guy ever on the beat down and does a good job keeping little guys with Jittes from attacking (due to first strike) and can sac himself to kill a Jace if need be. It is pretty flexible and people really seemed confused how to play against it or sideboard against me.

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Congrats on the tournament result, it looks like a solid list.
Can image its hard sideboarding against you, as switching between gameplans seems quite easy.

Some questions, if you don't mind:
Was the combo decisive in your wins, or was it the midrange junk that sealed the deal mostly?
I'm especially interested in Kotr, since he easily fetches combopieces, but he's also your biggest hitter. How did you use him mostly?
You don't seem to rely much on T.Stage, because of manastability? It seems like you could easily cut it from your list.

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Originally Posted by Ingo

Congrats on the tournament result, it looks like a solid list.
Can image its hard sideboarding against you, as switching between gameplans seems quite easy.

Some questions, if you don't mind:
Was the combo decisive in your wins, or was it the midrange junk that sealed the deal mostly?
I'm especially interested in Kotr, since he easily fetches combopieces, but he's also your biggest hitter. How did you use him mostly?
You don't seem to rely much on T.Stage, because of manastability? It seems like you could easily cut it from your list.

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The singleton thespian stage kill came up a couple times and is totally worth the slot. I was sort of embarrassed that I didn't' realize exactly how it worked. I didn't realize if you copied dark depths you lose both your dark depths and thespian stage (the legend rule occurs and you have to sacrifice your dark depths in order to get the 20/20 whooops!). More would be nice but with 4 Wasteland, 3 Dark Depths 1 Stage and 1 Karakas I already have 9 lands which produce colorless or useless white mana which is pushing it. You don't want to make the deck even more dependent on urbog than it already is. Hexmage is a more explosive faster combo enabler anyway.

Deathrite Shaman shrinking KoR is annoying but you have basically 8 removal (3 Decay, 2 StP, 3 Liliana) and Liliana is easy to cast on turn 2 which will kill a Deathrite on the play. I wanted to run 1 Cabal Pit as well but for some reason they were impossible to find before the tournament. Nobody had them and the shop was sold out.

Knight of the Reliquary is definitely a vital. I think running about 6 would be correct if it were legal. It is sort of the glue that holds it all together. This deck grows him scary fast and he provides another angle of attack to keep people honest. I kind of think if you go pure combo with like 4x Crop Rotation, 4x Living Wish, people are going to be able to fight you more effectively by focusing on one game plan. I didn't ever tutor up both the dark depths AND the Stage, but generally I would just get a wasteland to nuke an opposing wasteland/karakas, and then tutor but a dark depths and drop a hexmage for the GG.

Liliana is also similiarly versatile. The discard effect hurts the opponent much more considering the 4 Dark Confidant, 3 Loam, 2 Library card draw engines and it is pretty good against most decks. Plus as mentioned earlier with the 3x Diamond 4x Deathrite Shaman you can get it out turn 2 pretty often which is scary for a lot of decks.

Forcing people to defend against the prison/resource denial game plan of Wasteland+loam +liliana, the aggro game plan, and the 20/20 instant death plan I think is what makes this version good.

I dunno what I would change except maybe cut something for the cabal pit.

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Originally Posted by beebles

The singleton thespian stage kill came up a couple times and is totally worth the slot. I was sort of embarrassed that I didn't' realize exactly how it worked. I didn't realize if you copied dark depths you lose both your dark depths and thespian stage (the legend rule occurs and you have to sacrifice your dark depths in order to get the 20/20 whooops!). More would be nice but with 4 Wasteland, 3 Dark Depths 1 Stage and 1 Karakas I already have 9 lands which produce colorless or useless white mana which is pushing it. You don't want to make the deck even more dependent on urbog than it already is. Hexmage is a more explosive faster combo enabler anyway.

Deathrite Shaman shrinking KoR is annoying but you have basically 8 removal (3 Decay, 2 StP, 3 Liliana) and Liliana is easy to cast on turn 2 which will kill a Deathrite on the play. I wanted to run 1 Cabal Pit as well but for some reason they were impossible to find before the tournament. Nobody had them and the shop was sold out.

Knight of the Reliquary is definitely a vital. I think running about 6 would be correct if it were legal. It is sort of the glue that holds it all together. This deck grows him scary fast and he provides another angle of attack to keep people honest. I kind of think if you go pure combo with like 4x Crop Rotation, 4x Living Wish, people are going to be able to fight you more effectively by focusing on one game plan. I didn't ever tutor up both the dark depths AND the Stage, but generally I would just get a wasteland to nuke an opposing wasteland/karakas, and then tutor but a dark depths and drop a hexmage for the GG.

Liliana is also similiarly versatile. The discard effect hurts the opponent much more considering the 4 Dark Confidant, 3 Loam, 2 Library card draw engines and it is pretty good against most decks. Plus as mentioned earlier with the 3x Diamond 4x Deathrite Shaman you can get it out turn 2 pretty often which is scary for a lot of decks.

Forcing people to defend against the prison/resource denial game plan of Wasteland+loam +liliana, the aggro game plan, and the 20/20 instant death plan I think is what makes this version good.

I dunno what I would change except maybe cut something for the cabal pit.

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I like the fact that you run multiple gameplans. It's probably the best way to make use of the combo, as it has too many weaknesses to fully rely on it.
You probably shouldn't make any changes, but if I would tinker with your deck, I would probably add more control and less aggro, like adding devastating dreams - wiping the board, pumping Kotr. Just my nature, and probably a bad idea since your aggro package works so well.
And adding another color with 9 colorless lands is also probably not possible, even with mox + deathrite.

I am looking more in RGB colors for inspiration (so sadly, no Kotr).
I was really impressed with the synergy in the landsdeck of Kurt Spiess (link's in a post above).
Crop rotation, gamble, life from the loam, wasteland, Tabernacle, Punishing Fire and Grove of the burnwillows were an amazing disruptive package along the combo.
I would run this along with black disruption (sinkhole, smallpox, nethervoid, thoughtseize), and drawing through sylvan library (and confidant, if dropping smallpox).
Sylvan Library looks great if combined with words of war, being a secondary killcon like loam+SeismicAssault (and nondependant of the yard).
So more a grindy approach, but I'll make a decklist and test it in real life.
If you have RGB suggestions: much appreciated!

Hey guys I accidentally opened another thread, which is likely to be deleted. So let's merge!
I tried a straight UG approach with a clear combo focus, blanking most creature removal.
I understand that adding more creatures such as Goyf to the mix opens more doors to victory but at the same time blurrs the strategy a bit.

Let me know what you think!

Tutors:
4 Living Wish
4 Crop Rotation
1 Intuition

Disruption:
4 FoW
2 Misdirection (against STP)
2 Fluster Storm
4 Stifle / Not of this World (?)
4 Pithing Needle (Wasteland, Jace, Karakas, etc.)
4 Echoing Truth (wild idea: just to remove annoying stuff like Ensnaring Bridge, but always to buy some time)

Cantrips:
4 Ponder
4 BS

Other:
1 Life From the Loam

Land:
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 W. Heath
1 P. Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Thespian Stage
3 Dark Depths
4 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest

SB:
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
13 TBD

I really love the concept behind that list.

Hello everyone, this is what I've been brewing lately:

3 mishra’s factory
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 wasteland
2 thespian’s stage
2 dark depths
1 maze of ith
4 verdant catacombs
2 windswept heath
3 barren moor
1 cabal pit
4 bayou
1 swamp
1 forest


4 smallpox
4 abrupt decay
3 innocent blood
4 hymn to tourach
4 thoughtseize
3 liliana of the veil
4 life from the loam
3 crop rotation

Some news with the deck ;

played with to 1 35 player tornament.

4 Sylvan Library
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Crop Rotation
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
3 Punishing Fire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Pithing Needle
1 Maze of Ith
4 Copperline Gorge
3 Steely Resolve
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Into the North
3 Pyroclasm
3 Expedition Map
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Seal of Primordium
SB: 3 Trinisphere

went 5-1. I lost round one to strange stax deck with humility maindeck (game one) and sword to plownshare (game two, expected chalice so no sword wtf ?).

Win round two against random, then beat UWR delver 2-0, mud 2-0, goblin 2-0 and death and taxes 2-0 (with armageddon in side).

I am really happy with the red splash, I'ld like to add one sijiri steppe, but haven't tested it yet, who tested it, is it good enough ?

It can protect from removals or give the token evasion againts flyers blockers.

Copperline gorge are for submerge (and maybe because I don't own taiga).