Wizards MAY be cracking down on unsanctioned proxy events

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Originally Posted by GundamGuy

You just explained how they make a profit on this event, then said it is obviously not for profit.... :laugh:

If we want to go down the path of saying that loss leaders aren't done to create profit then... well might as well throw out the markting text books.

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So now if Hasbro objects to sales of Coke because they really just prefer Pepsi, it's their manifest destiny to shutter the stores that object? Of course the store is a for-profit entity, but the tournaments specific to the purview of Magic the Gathering are what's in question. Like others have said:

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Originally Posted by iatee

Wizards doesn't care about legacy. Wizards doesn't care about vintage. Proxy legacy tournaments and proxy vintage tournaments are about as much of an issue to Wizards as Proxy Yugioh tournaments.

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Honestly it's essentially reverse capitalism. Customers want something and the Shop is willing to supply it. However, they're being bullied by the larger company not to supply it or they'll in turn not supply their own product.

This is basically the "end-game" of capitalism when it stops working. Same issue with Wal-mart in a lot of ways (who have now dominated so many stores that it causes issues:

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* If wal-mart fails, many small towns who have been dominated by it and lost all of their shops will have *no* shops for an interim period.
* That Wal-mart's dominance allows it to bully companies into lower prices simply because it won't sell the product if they don't. Because they dominate so much of the market share, this would cost the company *even more* than hurting it's profit margin on each sale

It's not precisely analogous and I'm not some anti-capitalist; but the point is that simple supply-demand is not what's at play; it's rich companies extorting smaller ones that have orbited too close to the black holes.

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That said, the precisely correct response is to ignore them as a collective of shop-owners because if everyone cooperated then WotC couldn't act. But in the same way that Slaves didn't usually do this and people don't usually do this to someone performing a shooting/massacre it won't happen.

See this wiki article that explains in game theory terms exactly why it's the best solution and exactly why that solution will be avoided. (Called "The Prisoner's Dilemma.")

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Originally Posted by Barook

Proxy events wouldn't be such an issue if Wizards had a better reprint policy. The current side effects are the Chinese getting more incentive to perfect their counterfeits and speculators pricing people out of the game (just look at the current prize spikes in Modern, Jesus Christ!). And neither is good for the long-term health of the game.

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I agree with you on that. The great thing is that speculators will catch both sides of it, they might make a killing today, but tomorrow they might lose there shirt... like all the Oil Speculators Recently....

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Originally Posted by sjmcc13

These events are about experiencing aspects of the game that Wizards chooses to not properly support, and as a result are outside many people's price range.

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Yeah, I hear you. I get it.

As much as I think Vintage would be cool / fun to play. I personally can't afford to play Vintage... (well I could but the trade-offs I would have to make would mean issues in other parts of my life.)

Here's the thing that bugs me about this whole argument though... I don't feel entitled to experience the things in life that I can't afford. It's also entirely Wizards choice what cards they print, and saying I'm entitled to play a format I can't afford because Wizards doesn't support it is just an excuse.

I know I'm going to catch shit for saying it, but Magic is a Trading Card Game, Ownership of Cards is and alwasy has been a factor...

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

So now if Hasbro objects to sales of Coke because they really just prefer Pepsi, it's their manifest destiny to shutter the stores that object? Of course the store is a for-profit entity, but the tournaments specific to the purview of Magic the Gathering are what's in question. Like others have said:

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No don't be silly. However Hasbro can object to how you use Hasbro products as a loss leader to get people in the door to sell coke.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

Honestly it's essentially reverse capitalism. Customers want something and the Shop is willing to supply it. However, they're being bullied by the larger company not to supply it or they'll in turn not supply their own product.

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"it" in this case being a product that Wizards owns, and has the sole right to provide. Fighting over Proxies is just a way to maintain their Intelectual Property Rights.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

This is basically the "end-game" of capitalism when it stops working. Same issue with Wal-mart in a lot of ways (who have now dominated so many stores that it causes issues:

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Barring allowing other people the right to create Magic the Gathering cards, how exactly do you plan to solve the Monopoly Problem?

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Originally Posted by tescrin

That said, the precisely correct response is to ignore them as a collective of shop-owners because if everyone cooperated then WotC couldn't act. But in the same way that Slaves didn't usually do this and people don't usually do this to someone performing a shooting/massacre it won't happen.

See this wiki article that explains in game theory terms exactly why it's the best solution and exactly why that solution will be avoided. (Called "The Prisoner's Dilemma.")

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I'm not sure I agree, as I'm not sure that ignoring them is actually the most benifical outcome, and that giving in is actually less benifical. Do you actually think the best outcome is for a store to run no sanctioned events?

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Originally Posted by GundamGuy

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No don't be silly. However Hasbro can object to how you use Hasbro products as a loss leader to get people in the door to sell coke.

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Actually, didn't they bar shop from selling alcohol, or some non-sense of the same kind?

If one day a group of tournament organizers join hands and offer a rip-off 'pro tour' with similar prizes, then WotC can really take their bullying and stuff it. Surprised how it did not happen yet.

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Originally Posted by jmlima

Surprised how it did not happen yet.

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I'm not. It's would be extremely risky and costly to do so, and I believe the profit margin would be pretty low (to zero).

I'm not positive of this, but I believe that I've read before that the Pro-Tour isn't a huge money maker for Wizards, and is one of those "Loss Leaders" they do to promote the game and sell packs. So a company that can't benifit from pack sales is at a disadvantage of having to either charge a lot more, or figure out some other way to make money on the events.

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Also I don't know about the alchol issue. I know the Mana Bar sells alchol at Card Kingdom... but having never actually been there myself I don't know if that's because they get around that in some way (like seperating that from the play area and prohibiting drinks in the play area) or what....

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Originally Posted by tescrin

Honestly it's essentially reverse capitalism. Customers want something and the Shop is willing to supply it. However, they're being bullied by the larger company not to supply it or they'll in turn not supply their own product.

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Except that what the shop is providing is a violation of copyright law (good to decent proxies) or mental magic (not-printed out proxies (a.k.a. sharpie or substituting some cards for others)

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Originally Posted by tescrin

But in the same way that Slaves didn't usually do this and people don't usually do this to someone performing a shooting/massacre it won't happen.

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Let's not equate playing with proxies to slave revolt :/

Interesting thing - does goldborder cards are "legal" for testing on WPN shop - it's genuine WotC product (they have other back).

Second thing: I would like that some enough big organization like PokerStars create alternative for fading out Eternal formats like Legacy and Vintage where proxy are allowed - so changing collective non-playable (since no tournaments/enough cards for decent prices for players) game into non-collective playable game where cards are cheap since proxy are allowed.

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Originally Posted by Cire

Except that what the shop is providing is a violation of copyright law (good to decent proxies) or mental magic (not-printed out proxies (a.k.a. sharpie or substituting some cards for others)

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Originally Posted by GundamGuy

"it" in this case being a product that Wizards owns, and has the sole right to provide. Fighting over Proxies is just a way to maintain their Intelectual Property Rights.

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The shop is providing a place to play. Ergo, your conclusions about them violating anything is incorrect until they are actually doing it. Allowing people to play a specific game there is the product, not the proxies.

For example, if Wizards didn't like people playing "Go Fish" with mtg cards, but a shop provided a place to do that because customers demand it; please tell me how they are infringing on anything. And by "please tell me how they are infringing on anything" I actually mean "don't bother wasting your time because the shop hasn't done anything illegal or even morally questionable."

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Originally Posted by Cire

Let's not equate playing with proxies to slave revolt :/

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I'm talking game theory. Let's not put words in my mouth.
First
* I'm comparing Shops giving up their WotC profits as a revolt of the shops
Second
* It's a legitimate comparison in The Prisoner's Dilemma point of view.

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Originally Posted by GundamGuy

Barring allowing other people the right to create Magic the Gathering cards, how exactly do you plan to solve the Monopoly Problem?

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It's unsanctioned. People in my area tend to care about it when it comes to Legacy, but not to Vintage. Why? Because an order of magnitude cost and the fact that Vintage can't hold huge tournaments. [/quote]

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Originally Posted by GundamGuy

I'm not sure I agree, as I'm not sure that ignoring them is actually the most benifical outcome, and that giving in is actually less benifical. Do you actually think the best outcome is for a store to run no sanctioned events?

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That's because you haven't thought it through. It's not about *one store.* It's about *every store.* That's why I posted The Prisoner's Dilemma.

If every store waved their middle finger at this garbage, WotC *couldn't* enforce it, because then no one would be able to play their game; put another way; they would have no where to sell *and* play their product. They'd be at the kitchen table, and their limited/sealed game would cease existing. They'd fold in an instant.

But, due to the Crab Mentality it will never happen.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

The shop is providing a place to play. Ergo, your conclusions about them violating anything is incorrect until they are actually doing it. Allowing people to play a specific game there is the product, not the proxies.

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They are knowingly offering a space for people to play with proxies, proxies being a violation of IP law (criminal or civil). Thus they are knowingly aiding and abetting IP infringement. Aiding and abetting IP infringement is a crime as well. Thus shops are violating IP law.

Morale questionablity is not the same thing as legal culpability. :wink:

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Originally Posted by tescrin

* I could give a shit what you think. Take offence on your own time.

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This is my own time :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Barook

The main problem I see is that Wizards is incredibly hypocritical about the matter. First they even suggest in articles that TOs should make unsanctioned events for Eternal formats, then some time later they're strong-arming stores to cut even those while no official policy change was announced.

Proxy events wouldn't be such an issue if Wizards had a better reprint policy. The current side effects are the Chinese getting more incentive to perfect their counterfeits and speculators pricing people out of the game (just look at the current prize spikes in Modern, Jesus Christ!). And neither is good for the long-term health of the game.

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Wizards of the Coast taking such a strong line in requiring people to use cards they don’t actually sell and in some cases haven’t sold for over a decade (or two decades!) strikes me as… contradictory.

Legitimate question: Is there anything else like this, anywhere? Where you’re required to use something that’s “official” but the people who require you to use what’s official will refuse to sell it to you and will also not allow anyone else to create and sell it to you?

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Wizards of the Coast taking such a strong line in requiring people to use cards they don’t actually sell and in some cases haven’t sold for over a decade (or two decades!) strikes me as… contradictory.

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This is really the crux of it for me.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Legitimate question: Is there anything else like this, anywhere? Where you’re required to use something that’s “official” but the people who require you to use what’s official will refuse to sell it to you and will also not allow anyone else to create and sell it to you?

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It happens in corporate software fairly often. You get trapped on an old version. Upgrading to the new version is no longer supported. New copies of the old version are not available. Any kind of workaround you might come up with violates the license agreement. So you continue using Joe's Accounting 1997 v1.3 .

Excuse me while I NFC some cards to play in a sanctioned tournament.

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Originally Posted by Cire

They are knowingly offering a space for people to play with proxies, proxies being a violation of IP law (criminal or civil). Thus they are knowingly aiding and abetting IP infringement. Aiding and abetting IP infringement is a crime as well. Thus shops are violating IP law.

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While the current crop of Chinese "proxies" that you find on Ebay or wherever are actually counterfeits (and as such fall under the scope of IP/Copyright law), sharpied proxies are not, and WotC trying to defend that in a court of law would be laughed out of the room. The key thing is, of course, that they don't have to have any sound legal argument or burden of proof, because it's their right to withdraw WPN support from shops and kill them in the process.

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Originally Posted by CorwinB

While the current crop of Chinese "proxies" that you find on Ebay or wherever are actually counterfeits (and as such fall under the scope of IP/Copyright law), sharpied proxies are not, and WotC trying to defend that in a court of law would be laughed out of the room. The key thing is, of course, that they don't have to have any sound legal argument or burden of proof, because it's their right to withdraw WPN support from shops and kill them in the process.

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I agree - which is why in my initial post I stated that the shop is either in violation of copyright law (good to decent proxies) or providing a place to play mental magic (not-printed out proxies (a.k.a. sharpie or substituting some cards for others).

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Originally Posted by thecrav

It happens in corporate software fairly often. You get trapped on an old version. Upgrading to the new version is no longer supported. New copies of the old version are not available. Any kind of workaround you might come up with violates the license agreement. So you continue using Joe's Accounting 1997 v1.3 .

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Beta duals are the COBOL db to Modern's PHP. See this makes me wonder why I even play this game, haha

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Originally Posted by thecrav

It happens in corporate software fairly often. You get trapped on an old version. Upgrading to the new version is no longer supported. New copies of the old version are not available. Any kind of workaround you might come up with violates the license agreement. So you continue using Joe's Accounting 1997 v1.3 .

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Hrm, can you clarify? I'm a little confused. The problem seems to me that it's no longer supported to upgrade to the new version, but why is that? Is the situation just that the new version requires you to actually buy the new version and the company doesn't want to pay it when the old version works "good enough"?

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Originally Posted by tescrin

The shop is providing a place to play. Ergo, your conclusions about them violating anything is incorrect until they are actually doing it. Allowing people to play a specific game there is the product, not the proxies.

For example, if Wizards didn't like people playing "Go Fish" with mtg cards, but a shop provided a place to do that because customers demand it; please tell me how they are infringing on anything. And by "please tell me how they are infringing on anything" I actually mean "don't bother wasting your time because the shop hasn't done anything illegal or even morally questionable."

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First Wizards would have zero problem with people playing "60 card pick up" or "Go Fish" or "Old Maid" or whatever the heck you want with real MTG cards... because they are real MTG cards. Wizards has zero problem with stores running whatever game they want... as long as the product they are using is legit. You want to draft Beta, sure... want to do a wacky draft with boosters from different blocks... Wizards won't care a bit, even though it's not sanctioned.

"How they are infringing on anything"
See Wizards owns the IP rights for Magic the Gathering, not just the cards themselves but the rules and mechanics of the game. This is why other games can't have the same mechanics on different named cards... So it's not so simple to say the "specific game" is the product, because that specific game "Magic the Gathering" and all it's mechanics and rules are the Intellectual Property of Wizards of the Coast. This includes the rules that govern formats they invented.

Also no the Shop isn't merely providing a place to play, they are actually and actively setting up the event. If it weren't an shop run event that was advertised by the shop, and the shop were collecting money to organize / run it, then Wizards would have a lot less room to complain... but see they are actively involved in setting up the event and advertising it... and running it.... so it's not quite so simple to say it's only providing a place to play...

See you playing with proxys in your own home with friends when you play test... 100% AOK. (I mean wizards might say... please don't, but they don't have any grounds on which to come after you...)

But you play in an official (unofficial) event put on by a for profit business. An event that they run, and advertise, and collect money for.... and suddenly Wizards has a lot of room to come after those businesses.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

It's unsanctioned. People in my area tend to care about it when it comes to Legacy, but not to Vintage. Why? Because an order of magnitude cost and the fact that Vintage can't hold huge tournaments.

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It's funny to me that someone like you with some pretty conservative attitudes and view points would suggest that people should be entitled to play "Vintage" when they can't afford to play "Vintage." Or in anyway justify breaking the rules simply because they can't enjoy the thing they want to enjoy without either spending money or breaking the rules.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

That's because you haven't thought it through. It's not about *one store.* It's about *every store.* That's why I posted The Prisoner's Dilemma.

If every store waved their middle finger at this garbage, WotC *couldn't* enforce it, because then no one would be able to play their game; put another way; they would have no where to sell *and* play their product. They'd be at the kitchen table, and their limited/sealed game would cease existing. They'd fold in an instant.

But, due to the Crab Mentality it will never happen.

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What I love about you is how you bring out lively debate and colourful discussion.

First: First the Prisoner's Dilemma is a particular simultaneous move cooperation game, where the best outcome is achieved when both players (prisoner's being interrogated) cooperate, however both players have the incentive to defect and not cooperate (the promise of a reduced sentence)... this results in the Nash Equilibrium being the expected outcome.

Here's the problem. There is no incentive to defect. If an individual store defects it does not benefit, it's actually punished pretty hard. Furthermore even if you look at it as reversed (players should not cooperate, but do) there are numerous problems with calling this a prisoners dilemma. Is it actually correct that stores would benefit the most by not cooperating with Wizards? Doubtful because Stores and Wizards of the Coast have a mutually beneficial relationship. Wizards prints new Standard Singles that Stores can make bank on, and Wizards creates new sets and new events to draw in customers on a regular basis. Release events, Pre-Release Events, Game Days, FNM, and a host of other events that Wizards provides exclusive prizes for... I've not done the math, but I really doubt that the gains from running a handful of vintage / legacy events that allow proxies will make up for the loss of all those other events...

Second Problem: This is a sequential move game, not a simultaneous move game because Wizards knows what choice the store makes before they make decides how to respond... When it comes to sequential move games, signalling becomes important... which is BTW what Wizards is doing right now...

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Wizards of the Coast taking such a strong line in requiring people to use cards they don’t actually sell and in some cases haven’t sold for over a decade (or two decades!) strikes me as… contradictory.

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I'm not sure why you see it as contradictory? Just because Disney doesn't put "Song of the South" on TV every day (or ever...) and never talk about, or put it on DVD... doesn't mean they don't / shouldn't care if you set up a public screening of it...
IMO I'd pick the word, Frustrating, over contradictory.

Last thought on this.

Magic the Gathering is in fact a Trading Card Game. I know WotC reprint polices are frustrating, and I know that most of us can't afford to play Vintage... but that doesn't justify ignoring property rights and ownership.

Also feel free to play with proxies in your own home, but if you are a Store, want to host an event with Proxies that you advertise, promote, or in any other way run... well, don't. Wizards has every right to take you to court over it, and if anything Wizards not doing so and instead harmlessly signalling and using other methods is a sign of how much they value you...so I recommend not pushing things.

Also if you want to argue that Wizards cracking down on these events "Harms" the store in some way, it makes the argument that these events are non-profit, or not infringement because they don't profit from it a lot weaker...

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Hrm, can you clarify? I'm a little confused. The problem seems to me that it's no longer supported to upgrade to the new version, but why is that? Is the situation just that the new version requires you to actually buy the new version and the company doesn't want to pay it when the old version works "good enough"?

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From my experience this is a different situation, where businesses often delay upgrading to newer versions for cost reasons, but the software creator intentionally drops support (at a set date) for the older versions to push businesses to adopt newer (supported) versions. I suppose it also happens that you might get stuck and the files you want to carry over are not supported by the new version, but that seems like a product of poor design more then a intentional decision to increase profits (since they could increase profits by making sure older versions were supported in the new version (Microsoft Office does a good job of this))

Keep it calm boys.

Dice.

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Originally Posted by GundamGuy

It's funny to me that someone like you with some pretty conservative attitudes and view points would suggest that people should be entitled to play "Vintage" when they can't afford to play "Vintage." Or in anyway justify breaking the rules simply because they can't enjoy the thing they want to enjoy without either spending money or breaking the rules.

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Not the first time I read about entitlement in this thread. Or on Source.
I don't care if those are Entitled Little Bitches behind the proxy scene or counterfeit industry, but to me it looks more like a demand-supply law in action. There can be no vacuum, and if WotC created it by their (imho weird and unnecessary) past decision, there will be forces trying to fill the void.
For you might only for so long stare into the abyss, until the abyss eventually stares back into you.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Not the first time I read about entitlement in this thread. Or on Source.
I don't care if those are Entitled Little Bitches behind the proxy scene or counterfeit industry, but to me it looks more like a demand-supply law in action. There can be no vacuum, and if WotC created it by their (imho weird and unnecessary) past decision, there will be forces trying to fill the void.
For you might only for so long stare into the abyss, until the abyss eventually stares back into you.

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Totally agree with you that black markets arise when legal markets can't meet supply.

I agree with you that the problem of demand greatly out stripping supply is ENTIRELY due to WotC policy decisions.

I too am extremely frustrated by the decisions that WotC made that resulted in this mess.

I just don't have much sympathy for people who try to justify Proxy Events with excuses like this. One wrong decision doesn't justify another... IMO.