Do you enjoy the current state of legacy?

Janchu, would you mind making an extra post with the metagame shift data you just posted so one can make it sticky and/or bookmark it? Its an incredible piece of work, which I would like to chew through but would have to so manually.

If you feel funny, I would be interrested in the combined share of Counterbalance/Chalice/Decay in the metagame to see how the development curve is through the release/banning of the Delve spells and Eldrazis rise.

Amazing work regardless. Chapeau

thanks for the appreciation, i edited the wall of text into the first post, so you can bookmark it better

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by janchu88

feel free to ask for specific cards u want to see together

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First off, fantastic work, I love seeing stuff like this.

I'd like to see (using method B as you listed there), Brainstorm, Ponder, Force of Will, Cavern of Souls in a chart if you get the time.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Link to the recording of the Nykthos leyline deck please :-)

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I don't recall what week it was on camera. There are 107 videos stored on the Twitch page right now (https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/videos/all), but some of those are from Modern, Pauper, and Vintage. There's also a six-month gap in the video archive, which I think is due to a storage limit. The archive is worth browsing through, especially because it's so easy to skip ahead to a different match if you want to see different players or a different deck in action. Videos are usually stored for about two weeks and then rotate out, but I'm not sure why there are a lot from last May still in the archive.

Round 4 from last Monday's weekly had a great match between Stoneblade Landstill and the Vial Obliterator BUG deck I mentioned. Match coverage begins at 02:02:10.
https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/116921035

The Nykthos Leyline deck was based around Serra's Sanctum and Nykthos and was similar to Parfait. It had Nevermore, Ghostly Prison, Runed Halo, Increasing Devotion, and Leyline of the Meek, and I think it had the Land Tax + Scroll Rack draw engine.

Legacy is streamed every Monday at 6:30 p.m. Pacific time. Modern is streamed every Thursday night at 6:30. Also, there will be a Legacy 1K this Saturday, with coverage starting shortly after noon.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

First off, fantastic work, I love seeing stuff like this.

I'd like to see (using method B as you listed there), Brainstorm, Ponder, Force of Will, Cavern of Souls in a chart if you get the time.

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thanks, there you go

https://abload.de/img/bsponderforcegqu0a.png

"do I enjoy the current legacy?"

Yes

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Originally Posted by janchu88

thanks, there you go

https://abload.de/img/bsponderforcegqu0a.png

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Thanks a lot! The Eldrazi and DTT bumps are clearly visible there lol. Any chance Gitaxian Probe could be added to that as the 3rd cantrip menace? :-)

If you add Gitaxian Probe I'm curious to see how it relates to Cabal Therapy.

https://abload.de/img/therapyprobelraao.png

You can pretty mich tell when the format just became hostile towards storm xD

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Originally Posted by ESG

I don't recall what week it was on camera. There are 107 videos stored on the Twitch page right now (https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/videos/all), but some of those are from Modern, Pauper, and Vintage. There's also a six-month gap in the video archive, which I think is due to a storage limit. The archive is worth browsing through, especially because it's so easy to skip ahead to a different match if you want to see different players or a different deck in action. Videos are usually stored for about two weeks and then rotate out, but I'm not sure why there are a lot from last May still in the archive.

Round 4 from last Monday's weekly had a great match between Stoneblade Landstill and the Vial Obliterator BUG deck I mentioned. Match coverage begins at 02:02:10.
https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/116921035

The Nykthos Leyline deck was based around Serra's Sanctum and Nykthos and was similar to Parfait. It had Nevermore, Ghostly Prison, Runed Halo, Increasing Devotion, and Leyline of the Meek, and I think it had the Land Tax + Scroll Rack draw engine.

Legacy is streamed every Monday at 6:30 p.m. Pacific time. Modern is streamed every Thursday night at 6:30. Also, there will be a Legacy 1K this Saturday, with coverage starting shortly after noon.

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Thanks for the response. Are you one of the admins of the account? If so, I'd suggest renaming the videos such that the matchups are in the title. That also helps a bunch on youtube.

Damn Eldrazi and Chalice were really a faerie fire. I guess it got really popular at first because it was a new thing and relatively cheap, but now that the meta is settled it's just not a good deck as expected. Can't beat the cantrip cartel. At this point, i doubt there's anything that can impact the prevalence of the cantrip cartel. Survival and Recruiter being the two best shots at it.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Damn Eldrazi and Chalice were really a faerie fire. I guess it got really popular at first because it was a new thing and relatively cheap, but now that the meta is settled it's just not a good deck as expected.

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I guess that depends how good you expected it to be. MTG top8 has it at 6% - the only decks doing better (by their count) are Miracles and BUG Midrange. It's been a DTB most constantly since its inception. It isn't broken, and hasn't supplanted Miracles as the top placing deck. But it's a solid deck - not a fairy fire I think.

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Originally Posted by janchu88

https://abload.de/img/therapyprobelraao.png

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Thanks! I had expected Probe to be more like 30% since both Delver decks and combo decks play it

That fantastic info. You should start a new thread for it.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Can't beat the cantrip cartel. At this point, i doubt there's anything that can impact the prevalence of the cantrip cartel. Survival and Recruiter being the two best shots at it.

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I'd take a real close look at that graph on the previous page and look at the Abrupt Decay graph; there's no way a Survival unban results in more diverse fair decks, and every Survival deck is going to run Decay. This card isn't an effective policeman of the format, nor does it lead to intellectually interesting matchups. I wonder if the OP could create a graph highlighting decks which lack Brainstorm but have Decay vs no BS and no Decay?

Removal-based magic is fine, but you can generally scratch that itch by playing Modern/Standard/Limited, so it's always a bit hard to understand why people want legacy (or vintage) to feel like those. Board removal is small-minded/narrow and by itself pretty much an admission that you're not willing to compete on the stack. Legacy is incredibly varied and the cantrip cartel decks generally point their removal stack-ward letting them interact with both fair and unfair approaches. Sure you have to be in blue to have the most diverse interactive scope (i.e. countermagic)...and that warps color representation of the format but still you hear all this outrage from the crowd that conveniently forgets that they gave up on multi-dimensional interaction. I don't really hear discard enthusiasts (like Pox) going around claiming that their one-dimensional hand attack should be without inherent weakness. Imperfect, unconventional solutions are what make legacy/vintage fun, and [for instance] I'd rather watch or play these formats with/against solutions like Tabernacle than a mindless piece of spot removal.

I voted for the current state of legacy being okay, and a large part of that is this more represented mindset that players only want to play 'their' type of magic - and many new border cards are absolving such [fair] mindsets from needing to have holistic approaches to interaction.

"'d take a real close look at that graph on the previous page and look at the Abrupt Decay graph; there's no way a Survival unban results in more diverse fair decks, and every Survival deck is going to run Decay. This card isn't an effective policeman of the format, nor does it lead to intellectually interesting matchups. I wonder if the OP could create a graph highlighting decks which lack Brainstorm but have Decay vs no BS and no Decay?"

So what? Show and tell and reanimate griselbrand aren't particularly interesting or intellectual. If intellectual and interesting games were part of a reason to keep or not keep cards then show and ape and griseltard would've been banned long ago.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

So what? Show and tell and reanimate griselbrand aren't particularly interesting or intellectual. If intellectual and interesting games were part of a reason to keep or not keep cards then show and ape and griseltard would've been banned long ago.

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There's nothing stopping the other player from going large as well off that opponent's SnT; but yes, SnT is not fun to face if you don't play countermagic and you're not trying to do anything heroic. :tongue:
In my experience though an enemy SnT creates the most hilarious boards and is tremendously fun and balanced (in the sense that anything can happen, and anyone can win off it). I don't see why "SnT isn't fun and should be banned" opinion is any more valid than that of 2 combo pilots' opinion.

This is about to dive into ban discussion. Please shift the talk on this part of the topic there.