No one should be happy about Top.

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Originally Posted by LOLWut

It's less clear to me. Maybe they listened to mass bitching. Maybe they listened to the clamorous voices of influential people. Maybe they listened to results of big tournaments. And, I'm sure the other banned cards provoked much bitching before the ban, and had similar lack of clarity regarding the cause of the ban, mass bitching, or otherwise. To my knowledge, mass bitching has never been cited as the motivator.

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Until now. Aaron Forsythe said that he had heard complaints through twitter. Not to mention the "Ban Sensei's Top" sign at wotc that was posted last week.

They listened to vocal complainers rather than data. Miracles was a good deck for a long time but its share of the field was not as high as most decks that were previously hit with bannings.

Killing Miracles isn't about data or the deck winning too often and forcing players to choose it (because we've seen that happen in the past with much more dominant decks than Miracles). It's banned and an archetype is killed because it was a control strategy, because it countered cards, and because people whined.

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Originally Posted by Machinus

For the period in which Miracles has been a seriously played deck in tournaments, it has not shown any rise in popularity that you would see if it was significantly better than any other deck. Well that is a major problem for any theory that the deck is overpowered.

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I am honestly not trying to sound like an ass - do you genuinely believe that the cost of the deck in no way plays a part in people not buying into it? Personally, even if I had been interested in playing Miracles, it seemed to be mentioned in the same sentence as 'ban' with enough regularity on message boards, in interviews and in articles that I wouldn't have wanted to invest into it in the last year.

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Originally Posted by Machinus

Anyone rejoicing in this stupid, stupid decision by WotC is just short-sighted. There are no standards for banning cards, now. This same process can easily happen to any other card if there are enough incompetent players willing to engage in mob tactics and excessive whining to change the format. It doesn't matter if you liked Miracles or not -- this is not what you should want for Legacy.

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Wizards printed several cards specifically targeted at Miracles (abrupt decay and Sanctum Prelate), accidentally spawned an alien tentacle mass that also failed to bring down miracles, and random fat colorless things that should have helped the deck's worst matchups. None of that worked.

Numerous professional players have confirmed, multiple times, that miracles is the bar-none best deck in the format. Many have felt forced into playing the deck.

Sensei's Divining Top has been for years considered a problem card, worthy of banning for reasons unrelated to the power of the card.

These are standards, these are justifications. You may not like them, but this banning was not the simple result of mob bannings: it has been on the table for years, and WotC has made multiple attempts to actively fix the problem, or hope the deck succumbs to the ebb and flow of the legacy metagame. None of this has happened. This process cannot simply happen to another card, notably because in the case of other "problem children" (looking at dredge and storm here), the printed hate worked. Miracles proved both oppressive, resilient, and logistically problematic.

Frankly, if the banning of Top signals an increase in legacy coverage (which seems to be implied in the announcement), then it is a worthy sacrifice.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

I always just assumed Leafs fans don't care about playoffs?
:tongue:

I'm a Habs fan who enjoyed having Miracles in the format, so we are having backwards emotions!

Go Oilers!

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So many years of nothing to cheer for. This leafs team is really something special. Good years to come for Toronto.

I didn't "hate" miracles, I have the deck as well. Picked up a NM moat in December to add to the sb. I would have been fine is the banning of counterbalance or terminus. Deck was format warping and the Format was getting stale.

I would like to see Canadian Thresh be a thing again.

Sens still in it too! Clarke MacArthur, what a story

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Originally Posted by Machinus

Yes, I did. The burden is on the pro-ban side, but regardless, I did provide evidence in this thread.

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In your graph, you combined all the Delver decks into one to attempt to show that Miracles wasn't the dominant deck. That's not providing evidence; that's deliberately widening the definition of a deck type to dismiss evidence.

I'm sorry about the ban, but you're either denying something that's been proven since before I started playing the format or you're obfuscating.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

In your graph, you combined all the Delver decks into one to attempt to show that Miracles wasn't the dominant deck. That's not providing evidence; that's deliberately widening the definition of a deck type to dismiss evidence.

I'm sorry about the ban, but you're either denying something that's been proven since before I started playing the format or you're obfuscating.

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I really need this right now to be proven, because apart false % throwed from nowhere that changed from a poster to another and garbage troll complain, I never had such evidences since Conspiracy 2.

Maybe they are doing this because they will print a nerfed version of top?

like cost 2 to activate or something like it?

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Originally Posted by owerbart

Maybe they are doing this because they will print a nerfed version of top?

like cost 2 to activate or something like it?

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You mean that they're gonna print lib-manipulation in Standard ?

No way, they wouldn't do something that clever.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Storm was killed by Leovold

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Oh man, this is a good one.

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Originally Posted by Nestalim

I really need this right now to be proven, because apart false % throwed from nowhere that changed from a poster to another and garbage troll complain, I never had such evidences since Conspiracy 2.

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"Over that boy hand!
He deered to kill a King's dare."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7JmKW8xhrg

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Originally Posted by UnderwaterGuy

The problem is that wotc listened this time. None of those cards that people used to bitch about actually got banned but now bitching works.

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So...if I hold my hand out like Darth Vader towards a door and it opens, it was moved by The Force (c) and not by the automatic door opener outside of my view? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Barachai

Numerous professional players have confirmed, multiple times.

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Your pro idol does not have the authority to "confirm" that a deck is "the best." Anyway, I addressed why this is irrelevant in an earlier post.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

In your graph, you combined all the Delver decks into one to attempt to show that Miracles wasn't the dominant deck.

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Delver decks are all the same archetype and power level. For purposes of metagame analysis, especially considering power level questions, this is the correct way to look at it. If there were other splash colors for Miracles, such as UW/g or UW/b, they would be combined in the same way for the same reasons.

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Originally Posted by Teluin

I am honestly not trying to sound like an ass - do you genuinely believe that the cost of the deck in no way plays a part in people not buying into it? Personally, even if I had been interested in playing Miracles, it seemed to be mentioned in the same sentence as 'ban' with enough regularity on message boards, in interviews and in articles that I wouldn't have wanted to invest into it in the last year.

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You don't sound like an ass. That is a fair question, but I don't think it is that relevant, no.

Primarly, this is because at the "pro" level, or the high levels where analysis matters, barrier to entry doesn't matter. Pros are sponsored, borrow decks, or just buy the cards. If you are getting a significant competitive advantage by investing in cards, it's not an issue at GPs. So for this reason it's not a good criticism of the data.

Second, in this particular case, it's not an accurate criticism. Dual lands, and Force of Wills are so expensive that every deck is expensive in Legacy. Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top are frankly cheap compared to most engine cards in the format. The relative cost of these decks are not significant, as they might have been in previous eras when the card prices had larger disparities. Legacy decks have the longest lifetimes of any format in history, so players that want to acquire the cards have plenty of time to do so. Unfortunately, megadealers and speculators have pumped up the market so much that there is a universal barrier to entry almost everywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkd6JkfI4yk

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Originally Posted by Machinus

Your pro idol does not have the authority to "confirm" that a deck is "the best." Anyway, I addressed why this is irrelevant in an earlier post.

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The professional opinion was only a minor point, and frankly could be removed without reducing the impact of this fairly simple point: the ban was, according to WotC, justified. Regardless of how you draw your conclusions, you seem to be under the impression that because your logic does not justify a ban, then nobody's logic can justify a ban, because your logic is "objectively right".

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Originally Posted by Barachai

The professional opinion was only a minor point, and frankly could be removed without reducing the impact of this fairly simple point: the ban was, according to WotC, justified. Regardless of how you draw your conclusions, you seem to be under the impression that because your logic does not justify a ban, then nobody's logic can justify a ban, because your logic is "objectively right".

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People bitching on twitter does not constitute a justification. WotC made no attempt to justify their decision, anyway, because they could not. There is no evidence for it.

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Originally Posted by Machinus

People bitching on twitter does not constitute a justification. WotC made no attempt to justify their decision, anyway, because they could not. There is no evidence for it.

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It creates logistical issues, the metagame adapted to beat it and despite printing answers for it, the deck has been dominant.

Those are justifications.

There are obviously two strong emotions in result of this banning that don't (and will not) see eye-to-eye. My sincere condolences to those that were invested and enjoyed piloting Miracles (or Top in general), but this cyclical discussion is only causing further frustrations to all involved.