No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

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Originally Posted by Michael Keller

The bottom line is that I don't think these "collectors" would get anything out of a RL abolishment sue, because they would need - like Safety mentioned - proof that they've incurred damages upon receipt of the cards they own and that it was actually because of the RL abolishment they lost money. Good luck with that.

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It's called circumstantial evidence. If there's an immediate price dip right after the RL abolishment announcement happens that can easily be enough to carry the day in court.

The proof is simple as printing screenshots of market prices before and after the announcement.

Wrote this in 2013.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

Honestly, even if the Reserved List was somehow abolished, there is the issue of actually reprinting the cards.

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This.
Why would Wizards jump down this rabbit hole trying to figure out how they could distribute reprints without bad PR for themselves, LGS, online retailers, etc.
If you print a Master's set, your LGS or online store of choice will be hoarding boxes/ selling packs 100x , 1000x MSRP.
If you insert cards a la Zendikar, same potential senario.
List more options and you end up with people getting butt hurt because they still can't afford the cards or were unlucky enough to not pull some ultra-uber- mythic rare equivalent reprint. Plus, the cynical (i.e. run of the mill eternal player) will end up saying "it's just another cash grab by Hasbro..."
Why bother with these headaches when Standard sells and every couple of years you invent a new extended format?

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Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke

This.
Why would Wizards jump down this rabbit hole trying to figure out how they could distribute reprints without bad PR for themselves, LGS, online retailers, etc.
If you print a Master's set, your LGS or online store of choice will be hoarding boxes/ selling packs 100x , 1000x MSRP.
If you insert cards a la Zendikar, same potential senario.
List more options and you end up with people getting butt hurt because they still can't afford the cards or were unlucky enough to not pull some ultra-uber- mythic rare equivalent reprint. Plus, the cynical (i.e. run of the mill eternal player) will end up saying "it's just another cash grab by Hasbro..."
Why bother with these headaches when Standard sells and every couple of years you invent a new extended format?

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I totally agree. Have you seen how people behave in malls on black friday? Picture that times 1000 when the prize is Power 9, Mishra's Workshops, Bazaar of Baghdad, Tabernacles and (black bordered) duals. It's going to be a Quintin Tarantino style blood bath.

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Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke

If you insert cards a la Zendikar...

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just sayin' that was wildly successful. i have a revised taiga pulled from a zendikar pack...

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Originally Posted by Michael Keller

If it's an 11 billion dollar company, legal action from Mom and Dad in the Adirondacks isn't going to break the bank.

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its the class action from millions of players + collectors that will break the bank

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Originally Posted by Cire

From a business point, getting rid of RL only makes sense if:

[Profits from new print run of RL cards] > ([Legal expenses billed hourly until settlement ]+[Settlement Cost]+[print runs of RL cards]+[promotion of legacy events]+[Cost of Misdirected Hours/Time]+[Lost opportunities])*([Percentage likelihood of [Profits from new print run of RL cards]>[Lost opportunities]]).

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I'm fairly certain this conversation has already been had internally. There is a point where it makes sense to them. Also, they have a general counsel so there's no billable hours to worry about, they get to pay salary to a handful of lawyers to deal with this.

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Originally Posted by Michael Keller

What baffles me is how a collector can sue for loss of value on some cards because of the abolishment of the RL, but organic price change on the secondary market (i.e. a USea going from 700 to 400 dollars in two months) is not grounds for being able to sue. The very nature of these cards is that they fluctuate in price because of their age, scarcity and playability. You're telling me that only an artificial outcome that affects pricing is the only measure that a collector could use to sue?

Something about this doesn't make sense. I'm not a lawyer, but this feels like hogwash to me. I honestly believe this would get laughed out of court, regardless of the investment one made into the product. Precedent has been set that this list has changed in the past. So if you're a collector, regardless of what WOTC says, you have to at least invest operating under the pretense that at any time they could make the decision to change it again or abolish it entirely - and that's on you, not WOTC.

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Pretty sure WOTC in their latest statement about their reserve list changes acknowledges that they have made changes before but will not be doing so going forward. Also, whether or not something can be successfully argued in court doesnt always make sense. It takes a very different way of thinking to be a lawyer. Once you become a lawyer, your entire perception of the world changes and you begin to understand why companies take certain actions.

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Originally Posted by apple713

Pretty sure WOTC in their latest statement about their reserve list changes acknowledges that they have made changes before but will not be doing so going forward. Also, whether or not something can be successfully argued in court doesnt always make sense. It takes a very different way of thinking to be a lawyer. Once you become a lawyer, your entire perception of the world changes and you begin to understand why companies take certain actions.

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Unlike the last time they changed the reserved list?

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Originally Posted by apple713

I'm fairly certain this conversation has already been had internally. There is a point where it makes sense to them. Also, they have a general counsel so there's no billable hours to worry about, they get to pay salary to a handful of lawyers to deal with this.

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No way general counsel handles a class litigation.

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Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke

This.
Why would Wizards jump down this rabbit hole trying to figure out how they could distribute reprints without bad PR for themselves, LGS, online retailers, etc.
If you print a Master's set, your LGS or online store of choice will be hoarding boxes/ selling packs 100x , 1000x MSRP.
If you insert cards a la Zendikar, same potential senario.
List more options and you end up with people getting butt hurt because they still can't afford the cards or were unlucky enough to not pull some ultra-uber- mythic rare equivalent reprint. Plus, the cynical (i.e. run of the mill eternal player) will end up saying "it's just another cash grab by Hasbro..."
Why bother with these headaches when Standard sells and every couple of years you invent a new extended format?

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I totally agree. Have you seen how people behave in malls on black friday? Picture that times 1000 when the prize is Power 9, Mishra's Workshops, Bazaar of Baghdad, Tabernacles and (black bordered) duals. It's going to be a Quintin Tarantino style blood bath

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This is the dumbest argument, none of these things are an issue for wotc
Nobody there is going "hmmmm it seems we have a problem, people are TOO hungry for our cardboard"

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

This is the dumbest argument, none of these things are an issue for wotc
Nobody there is going "hmmmm it seems we have a problem, people are TOO hungry for our cardboard"

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Print to demand will lead to upheaval, limited printing will lead to store owners cornering the market and flipping the product for X times the intended retail price, limited printed direst sales will lead to bots buying out all product the way it happens with Sneakers, just to release it the same day for X times the price.

You will not get your hands on reserved list cards for cheap, unless they print it like it’s venezuelan money. Look up the price of a Collectors edition set, and thats not even legal in sanctioned tournaments.

Guys, just let it go. Legacy has gone the way of Vintage; I sold out years ago because of that. The truth is, Wizards doesn't really give a shit about us. As long as there's people buying $30 collector boosters, there's zero incentive to even touch the list.

The only way it's getting broken is when Wizards is in the shitter at the tail end of the upcoming recession, and someone in a suit says "you know what we need? Go back to our roots. Let's get those 40 and 50 year olds with money that used to play 25 years ago to buy the stuff from their childhood". Then we miiiight get stuff like duals. Maybe some form of paper Vintage Masters.

Or get someone in China with a printing press, but if that happens there is zero chance of SCG ever touching Legacy again.

So, no way out. Put a fork in it, it's done.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Print to demand will lead to upheaval, limited printing will lead to store owners cornering the market and flipping the product for X times the intended retail price, limited printed direst sales will lead to bots buying out all product the way it happens with Sneakers, just to release it the same day for X times the price.

You will not get your hands on reserved list cards for cheap, unless they print it like it’s venezuelan money. Look up the price of a Collectors edition set, and thats not even legal in sanctioned tournaments.

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I'm addressing the argument that wotc won't ever bother print RL cards because it would be some kind of logistical hassle that detracts from their core business of making standard-legal sets.

I'm not denying that any of this secondary market drama will happen. With the mythic editions people already did the sneaker-esque shit where if you were lucky to get it for the RRP from the Hasbro website it was basically free money if you just flipped it on the secondary market immediately.

My point is that wotc doesn't care: they are still making money selling people cardboard. If they make a reserved-list product tomorrow that's a new way to sell people cardboard that they didn't have access to today. They don't lose money by "printing it like venezuelan money" either unless they totally oversaturate the demand and theres a bunch of vintage cube box-sets or 'mythic-edition: power' left sitting in a warehouse somewhere that nobody wants, which seems unlikely.

If your argument is instead "wotc has shown in the past that they're too afraid to reprint cards in a way that has any noticeable impact on their secondary market value, so there's no reason to be excited about the prospect of the RL disappearing", then that's a different argument. I agree with you that wotc is way too conservative in this regard but I don't agree that it's impossible to imagine a realistic product that would noticeably reduce the prices of RL cards

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Guys, just let it go. Legacy has gone the way of Vintage; I sold out years ago because of that. The truth is, Wizards doesn't really give a shit about us. As long as there's people buying $30 collector boosters, there's zero incentive to even touch the list.

The only way it's getting broken is when Wizards is in the shitter at the tail end of the upcoming recession, and someone in a suit says "you know what we need? Go back to our roots. Let's get those 40 and 50 year olds with money that used to play 25 years ago to buy the stuff from their childhood". Then we miiiight get stuff like duals. Maybe some form of paper Vintage Masters.

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The second paragraph is exactly the incentive you're looking for in the first paragraph
It doesn't necessarily have to be in a situation where wotc/hasbro is in a hole, either. It just needs to be a situation where the expected returns outweigh the legal repercussions. (Which I don't know enough about to comment on, but from what I've heard from people who's opinions I trust/value it's not just an imaginary bogeyman invented in the minds of wotc)

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Originally Posted by Purple Blood

It's called circumstantial evidence. If there's an immediate price dip right after the RL abolishment announcement happens that can easily be enough to carry the day in court.

The proof is simple as printing screenshots of market prices before and after the announcement.

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I would argue that the value of any investment, if you can even consider it an investment vehicle which if I was the lawyer would never do, is prone to fluctuations, hence the price dip or rise is bound to be expected, plus, there have been previous fluctuations in price and the cards returned to their original value, or even surpassed it.

WoTc should print something along the lines of this:

"Pseudo volcanic island
Land - Island mountain
Tap: Add U or R to your mana pool
You cannot have more than 4 volcanic island and Pseudo Volcanic island in total in your deck"

Does not break the RL (although it breaks the spirit of the RL), does not rise the number of duals in a deck.

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Originally Posted by Tylert

WoTc should print something along the lines of this:

"Pseudo volcanic island
Land - Island mountain
Tap: Add U or R to your mana pool
You cannot have more than 4 volcanic island and Pseudo Volcanic island in total in your deck"

Does not break the RL (although it breaks the spirit of the RL), does not rise the number of duals in a deck.

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Or a Golgothian Sylex for core sets. Garfieldian Sylex. Solved! :)

In all seriousness, if you want to achieve anything, don't wear yourself out trying to get WOTC to abolish the reserved list. Maro, Ben, years of lobbying by the most prolific Vintage players and the entire Vintage community.. Many have tried, and many have failed. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome.

Focus on what you CAN do.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Focus on what you CAN do.

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Sooo... Nothing?

Do what you can to support your local and online Legacy scenes?

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Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses

Do what you can to support your local and online Legacy scenes?

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Which is exactly what people have been doing for YEARS and yet the format is still dying.

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Originally Posted by aedemiel

Which is exactly what people have been doing for YEARS and yet the format is still dying.

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That's the point. The onus shouldn't be nor it shouldn't ever have been on the player to "support their local Legacy scene." That's precisely the problem. There should be enough organic interest and affordability in the format and support coming from above that gives Legacy and Vintage players a chance to afford and compete with the cards they want to play with so more players will naturally show up to events.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Print to demand will lead to upheaval, limited printing will lead to store owners cornering the market and flipping the product for X times the intended retail price, limited printed direst sales will lead to bots buying out all product the way it happens with Sneakers, just to release it the same day for X times the price.

You will not get your hands on reserved list cards for cheap, unless they print it like it’s venezuelan money. Look up the price of a Collectors edition set, and thats not even legal in sanctioned tournaments.

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Why would it not be different than Modern Masters?