I doubt it will matter too much, as there aren't any decks that I can think of that pack maindeck enchantment hate. And we can always side them out in G2 (for Needles or the like) if we're expecting them to board something like that in.
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I doubt it will matter too much, as there aren't any decks that I can think of that pack maindeck enchantment hate. And we can always side them out in G2 (for Needles or the like) if we're expecting them to board something like that in.
I have tested the deck this week against non aggro decks like Landstill, Reset and Iggy Pop. Those decks are very hard to beat!
The lone Elad. Call was great against thes decks. having a fifth Meddling Mage against these fast decks is really good, it slows them down. Getting a beater like Jotul Grunt aint bad either. You have so many choices with the Elad. Call.
The test matchups against aggro decks with Worship is better than without, but against non aggro decks you do not want the Worship. I feel like the deck does also very well against aggro without the Worship.
The Harmonic Sliver worked great against Goblins (Eather Vial) and Iggy Pop (Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond) Both can't be removed with An EE!
I tested against a version of Iggy Pop with Defense Grid in the sideboard, Harmonic is very very good. Just don't run Pithing Needles and Harmonic Sliver together........
Four days to go before the Dutch open Guys!
I forgot to mention RGSA, the Meddling Mages, Pithing Needle and Jotul Grunt are great. They can't handle all of them, it is just too much. The Harmonic Sliver is also great, but i rather play the Pithing Needles.
I haven't play-tested Landstill, but it does seem like it would be a difficult matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by swordoffireandice
Game 1 against Solidarity & Iggy Pop is tough, but winnable. After sideboarding, both of those matchups become fairly easy.
Goed geluk!
It is pretty tough, at least, Mav's UWR build is tough (maindeck EE ruins us!).Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
Um, all of them can be answered by EE. I admit, not at the same time (except in the case of Lotus Petal and Lion's Eye Diamond, which both cost 0). Since there isn't any deck that runs LP, LED, and Vial in the same deck, this shouldn't be a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by swordoffireandice
The LED/Petal point is somewhat of a moot issue. If the IGGy player drops their LED and passes so you can nullify it then you were probably going to win anyway. This because they don't know much about how their own deck works and have no business playing it. LED should be the absolute last thing they drop before IGG, tutors, etc. especially with an EE for 0 sitting on your side of the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
You speak the truth. Honeslty the thing I liked best about EE was that it took out Nimble Mongoose. It also can kill Troll (only if they don't have regeneration mana, but whatever). The fact that it can deal with problem enchantments and artifacts was actually more of a secondary thing. The other thing I really liked about it was that it was board sweep, and could potentially generate card advantage (in the form of X-for-1s), which is something this deck is really craving.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
Don't get me wrong, I like EE in the deck either in the main or relegated ('regulated' if you're Mavtarded :tongue:) to the sideboard. However, if I were paired against IGGy I'd certainly side EE's out if they were in the main, or leave them in the board whichever the case may be. That is all.
Actually EE can come in handy in the Iggy-Pop match since it takes out defense grid, which will cause you to lose the game. A single explosives set at two insures that you can destroy all their defense grids at once. Explosives can also deal with xantid swarms if they are running them.
The problem there is, Explosives at 2 also kills 99.9% of your guys. YOu have a point about Xantid Swarm, though, even though no build of IGGy Pop I've ever seen runs them :tongue:. I'll admit that EE isn't dead in the first game against IGGy, but it probably should be sided out Game 2 in favor of Meddling Mages and such, don't you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick676
It's not a big deal to kill your guys if you are going to stop their combo with force of will or daze. If you have something like disenchant in the board it is probably better in this slot. However should your board be devoid of disenchants, then EE is a good thing to keep in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
Also there are builds that run a green splash for Xantid Swarm.
Hot damn. I guess I'm a regular Pintard, then :wink:. At least I was still correct in my word usage =/.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
Hi, here is my report of the Dutch Open Legacy 2006. There were over 128 people, so we had too play 8 rounds of Swiss and a single elimination top 8.
Here is my deck list:
Land:
1 plains
1 forest
1 island
3 flooded strand
3 windswept heath
4 tundra
3 tropical island
1 savannah
creatures:
4 crystalline sliver
4 muscle sliver
4 plated sliver
3 talon sliver
2 harmonic sliver
1 winged sliver
spells:
4 brainstorm
4 serum visions
4 FOW
4 daze
3 stifle
4 STP
1 chain of vapor
1 eladamri's call
sideboard:
1 stifle
4 meddling mage
4 jotun grunt
2 harmonic sliver
4 tivadar's crusade
First round I played against Steven Geurts with Threshold UWG.
Game 1: He gained threshold rather fast and beat me a couple of times until I had enough slivers. Then he played a Mystic Enforcer witch I could not counter/Swords, so I lost game 1.
In: 4x Jotul Grunt and 2x Meddling Mage
Out: 4x Daze and 2 Plated Sliver
Game 2: He didn’t/couldn’t build threshold, but played a Nimble Mongoose and a Worship. I had Jotun Grunt and some slivers and kept beating him. Then I played an Eladamri’s Call for Harmonic Sliver and waited to play him until I had two FOW with two blue cards. I played Harmonic, he fowed, I fowed back and he said O.K. I told him that the Worship was the target, he thought that the next Sliver could do that, not the harmonic, but a judge had to tell him otherwise. Game two for me.
With 6 minutes to go we had no time for a third game.
0-1-0
Round two:
Jeroen Bertelink playing a Rifter deck:
Game 1: I played Crystalline/Muscle and another sliver he tried to play a Wrath of God witch I Dazed. Next turn I attacked FTW.
In: 4 Meddling Mage, 4 Jotun Grunt and 1 Stifle
Out: 4 Daze, 4 STP and ?
Game 2: I played Crystalline again with Muscle, he played Loxodon Hierarch witch I countered. I attacked again. He played Eternal Witness for the Loxodon. I attacked again. He played the Loxodon, but I Stifled the life gain and attacked the next turn FTW.
1-1-0
Round three:
Martijn van der Vaart playing (Nausea?) Iggy Pop.
Game 1: I attacked with some Slivers until he played a Tendrils for 8. then I attacked some more until he tried to go of, but a well placed counter on his first dark Ritual held him off. Next turn I attacked FTW.
In: 4 Meddling/4 Grunt/ 1 Stifle
Out: 4 STP/ 1 Chain of Vapor/and I believe 2 plated and 2 talon Sliver.
Game 2: I played Crystalline/muscle and Grunt. I Stifled his Tendrils and that was game.
2-1-0
Round four:
Bastiaan Boel playing Threshold WGR
Game 1: He had Threshold and I was low on live until I gained control. The direct damage was too much.
In: 4 Grunt/4 Meddling Mage
Out: 4 Daze/ 4 plated I believe
Game 2: I had two Grunts and a Sliver, but he had a Vedalken Shackles and took a Grunt from me. He also played Werebear with Threshold. I didn’t got the Harmonic Sliver…damn. Lost that game too.
2-1-1
Round five;
Ronald Groenstege playing Life From the Loam/cycling lands/wasteland/werebear/terravore/solitary confinement
Game 1: he cycled some lands, played Werebear and Terravore. I played Silvers and did some damage. He played Solitary, I played Harmonic on Solitary and attacked FTW.
In: Meddling Mage Jotun Grunt
Out: Daze and plated and Chain of Vapor?
Game 2: He had wasteland and LFTL from the beginning. I couldn’t get going with no lands and lost.
Game 3: I had some creatures but he played two Wrath of Gods witch I could not counter and then he had Genesis and Eternal Witness and kept playing creatures.
2-1-2
Round 6:
All something from Australia playing Goblins.
Game 1: I didn’t know he played Goblins and kept a hand with no Plated Sliver, no STP and no FOW and Stifles…… he played Lackey a lot of Goblins and won game won. Although he won it took him a very long time.
In: 4 Tivadar’s Crusade 1 Stifle
Out: 4 Daze and 1 Chain of Vapor
Game 2: I played Crystalline and some other sliver witch he could not handle. Game two for me.
Game three: I played two Tivadar’s Crusade but the Goblins still kept coming, this guy played really slow and had to think a lot…. No more time was the reason for a draw!
2-2-2
I didn’t feel like playing two more rounds and dropped. A friend of mine was going very well (made top 8) so I went watching him play his Landstill deck with Pernicious Deed.
When I looked around I saw a lot of Goblins and some black disrupt decks.
Top 8:
-Goblins
-landstill
-UWB Fish
-LFTL/cycle lands/wasteland/werebear/terravore
-Affinity
-Smallpox disrupt deck
-Land destruction with Trinisphere etc
-?
It was a great tournament and the Sliver deck worked fine. The Threshold match up is 50/50, I played two times against Threshold (1 lost and 1 draw). I feel like this is not good enough. A lot of times I wished for the Jotun Grunt to be a Tormod’s Crypt. This happened also against LFTL deck. I think two Jotul Grunt and 4 Tormod’s Crypt would have been better in the sideboard. LFTL/wasteland decks are also a pain in the ass.
The Chain of Vapor can be replaced, with what I don’t know yet.
The Harmonic must stay in the deck! I think one is enough with two Eladamri’s call main deck. One Winged Sliver is also enough, I only used him once those 6 rounds.
The one Savannah is also a must, there were more than e few times when I needed a Savannah.
The Meddling Mages in the sideboard can be discussed….I feel like two is enough with the Eladamri’s maindeck. Maybe we can cut them all.
I hope you guys can do something with this report.
If you have any questions feel free too ask!
Thanks very much for the report! It's good to see someone playing this deck at a major tournament.
Some thoughts about your matches:
UGW Thresh: While I feel this matchup is slightly favorable for Meat Hooks, you do run the risk of running out of time (and having to settle for a draw) if you don't win the first game, which is something I've warned against repeatedly. Obviously, winning the first game therefore becomes very important in this matchup. My suggestion? Maindeck Worship. Thresh usually has no maindeck answer for it. Btw, I don't think siding out Plateds is a good call against Thresh.
Rifter: Good job on sweeping this match, because I don't think this is a particularly good matchup for Meat Hooks, at least in game 1. Armageddon is a very good card to bring out of the sideboard against any white-based control deck. The idea is to play out a couple of slivers, counter their Humility or Wrath, then geddon and win.
UGR Thresh: You wrote WGR Thresh, but I'm going to assume that was a typo. Once again, maindeck Worship would have been golden in this matchup. Also, siding out Plated was a big mistake; you were making his Pyroclasms better. Finally, bad break on your opponent actually being able to activate Vedalken Shackles against you. Obviously, if you have Crystalline or Harmonic, the Shackles are useless against you.
Goblins: Bad break on having to settle for a draw in this matchup. He was very lucky to get a Lackey through against you in game 1, and it sounds like he slow-played you in the following games. Did you call a judge? Btw, I have one word for you: Worship.
I agree with most of your final comments. Tormod's Crypt > Jotun's Grunt. Chain of Vapor doesn't belong. Savannah is good. Not sure about removing Meddling Mage from the sideboard, though. I could see cutting to 3, but not taking them out completely.
As you all can see, I'm still pushing for maindeck Worship. I think it saves a lot of game 1s. I was play-testing with two of them in the maindeck, and I was amazed at how often they were coming up, so I decided to do an experiment. Yesterday, I played a set of 24 games against mono-red Vial Goblins, with just 1 Worship maindeck. The results:
Win/Loss: 16-8 in favor of Meat Hooks
Games won with Worship lock: 8
Games where I drew Worship but couldn't get it down: 2 (lost both of those)
With just one Worship in the deck, I still drew into it over 40% of the time! And when I did draw it, I was able to get it down 80% of those times, despite having to contend with Gobbo's 4 Wastelands + 4 Ports. Also, I would say it improves the win percentage against Goblins by a good 10%. Now, I realize I only tested one matchup, but I think these results will translate over to a lot of other matchups. While Worship isn't good against decks like Solidarity and Iggy Pop, neither is stuff like Talon Sliver #3 or Engineered Explosives (the cards I would suggest cutting to make room for 1-2 Worships + land #18), so those matchups won't be adversely affected by the addition of Worship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
A first win against Goblins and Thresh is game for us i think, so i agree that Worship should be maindeck. I am going to put one in. Thanks Volt.
I think that 2 MD Worship is probably the way to go, honestly. I just don't know about seeing it that often with only 1. And as we all know, I hate one-ofs unless it's a toolbox thing. This isn't.
Also, if EE isn't in the main, it definitely needs to be in the board. I ran an EE-less (both maindeck and sideboard) list last friday with 2 Worship instead, and there were a number of times where EE would have simply come in handy. I'm not saying that it's always super great game one, but where it is, it's also super great game 2. I would stick a couple in the SB.
Also, is Crypt really greater than Grunt? I would have assumed otherwise, but I suppose that being able to remove whatever's there right now as opposed to removing a lot more over the course of time has it's advantages. And it actually removes them, instead of giving them back threats and such. Crypt is probably worse than Grunt against Thresh, but it hits a wider variety across the board, at least.
I wasn't really recommending Worship as a one-of. I tried that just as an experiment. I must say I was slightly surprised at how effective it was, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
Exactly. Tormod's Crypt is consistently good against any deck that likes to abuse its graveyard. Grunt is a bit better in a few matchups, but significantly worse in many others. I really think Tormod's Crypt serves this deck better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
Hey Pinder, you should tell them what your beloved slivers lost too...Mono Black Rats Baby! Oh Yeah!...I still pulled the win outa my ass even under three Medaling Mages! Dont get me wrong though, the match against you was really really tough and i enjoyed it greatly...Slivers is a contender and i specifically made my deck to win against the top decks in the format...Anywho i should be posting Rats2.0 here in a few days...Enjoy the Read...
Quote:
Originally Posted by swordoffireandice
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
I think there is a misconception about the number of slivers you can afford to play in your deck. The number cannot be f'cked around with too much because in order for slivers to be effective there needs to be a certain critical mass of them in play. This is because you need both quantity and quality of slivers in order for their sliver ability to work properly. This also is a good reason for including a one drop in the deck (Plated).
Against UGW thresh siding out slivers is like handing them the game. You're playing essentially the same deck except for the Slivers (duh) so when you side out the plated sliver its like putting a please kick me sign on your back. If you are going to win this matchup its is because you will swarm them with your many slivers while they have a goose or two and/or a bear. If you are going to side in Jotun Grunt then leave the sliver count relatively alone(maybe side out 2) to ensure that your sliver strategy retains its quality and quantity.
BTW, against combo decks where the size of the clock is inconsequential then by all means side your slivers out.
Yes, I lost to a mono-black version of rats (is there any other version of rats?)...that ran duress, ostracize (at least in game 2), and hymn. This should not be surprising. Discard = bad news for us). And the fact that nearly all I drew in terms of creatures that game were those Magi might have had something to do with it, too :tongue:. And I still won a game, you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jankwolf
But yeah, look for rats on the horizon. Skull Collector + Chittering Rats is some good.
First of all props to swordoffireandice for taking this deck to a big tournament. It's too bad you didn't do so well.
Anyway I thought I'd take some time to point out some common sideboarding misconceptions that people seem to have a lot with this deck.
In this matchup your creatures are generally superior to theirs because of plated and muscle sliver. Also this deck only has 8 counterspells so there are just about zero situations when you would want to side daze out.Quote:
First round I played against Steven Geurts with Threshold UWG.
In: 4x Jotul Grunt and 2x Meddling Mage
Out: 4x Daze and 2 Plated Sliver
In the UGW thresh matchup I find siding out swords for mages to be an effective tatic. Your first mage should name swords and your second mage should name mystic enforcer. Jotun grunt is of course a good card to side in and I would have sided out chain of vapor and at least one harmonic for 2 of him.
Again there are very few situations in which you would side out countespells, and this is not one of them. Jotun grunt isn't such a great idea in this matchup since your opponent can dig through his deck quite effectively, so recycling his removal cards for him becomes a serious problem.Quote:
Round two:
Jeroen Bertelink playing a Rifter deck:
In: 4 Meddling Mage, 4 Jotun Grunt and 1 Stifle
Out: 4 Daze, 4 STP and ?
This is pretty much the proper way to sideboard for this matchup. However 3 talon and one winged sliver should be removed instead of plated sliver in this matchup. Plated sliver is strictly better since they are all 1 power slivers with irrelevant abilities.Quote:
Round three:
Martijn van der Vaart playing (Nausea?) Iggy Pop.
In: 4 Meddling/4 Grunt/ 1 Stifle
Out: 4 STP/ 1 Chain of Vapor/and I believe 2 plated and 2 talon Sliver.
He plays solitary confinement so two more harmonic slivers should come in from the board.Quote:
Round five;
Ronald Groenstege playing Life From the Loam/cycling lands/wasteland/werebear/terravore/solitary confinement
In: Meddling Mage Jotun Grunt
Out: Daze and plated and Chain of Vapor?
Daze is often quite effective against goblins and should not be sided out. I have played this matchup more than any other, and I can tell you that something like Tivadar's Crusade is not nescessary especially since it requires WW. Against goblins needing WW forces you to fetch duals when you should be fetching your three basic lands. Something like absolute law would have been much better in this slot.Quote:
Round 6:
All something from Australia playing Goblins.
In: 4 Tivadar’s Crusade 1 Stifle
Out: 4 Daze and 1 Chain of Vapor