[Deck] UWb Fish

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I think it might end up being a pretty metagame-related call.

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Right, and I build my decks with large event metagames in mind. I have a feeling that Goblins is going to make a very strong showing at GP Columbus. Otherwise, I could always run 3 Duress MD with 2 Lose Hope and 1 Jitte SB. Either way, Lose Hope IS going to make its way into the 75 cards of my deck.

I'm going to edit the original decklist to reflect these current changes because I've really liked Lose Hope in testing.

As far as Life from the Loam strategies goes, as long as I fetch out a couple basics to protect against Wasteland, I usually don't have too many problems. Duress/countermagic answers the big bombs like Devastating Dreams and Armageddon. One major benefit of UWb and being blue based is that all my colors are allied colors and fetching out basics fits right into the blue based Fetchlands. As mentioned, Jotun Grunt and Meddling Mage are awesome in this matchup, with enough draw/cantrip to find them.

Speaking of Duress, has Cabal Therapy been discussed at all? You have the creature base to support flashing it back, and it truely is better against gobs than duress. Playing both after sideboarding would be devestating against control/combo.

It was considered before a very long time ago when I used to run it but there are reasons why I don't now. The deck only has 16 creatures which really doesn't support it well. It was synergy to sac a Confidant at low life totals, or Grunt's after they are all used up, but it still is quite lacking. Without Duress in addition, Cabal Therapy is extremely mediocre when cast from hand. It's decent against Goblins but I would much rather run Lose Hope. I'm not really convinced that the deck needs the excess discard vs combo and control.

It can be tested again but I don't think it will fit correctly. There just isn't enough room to run Duress AND Cabal Therapy maindeck and there simply isn't enough creatures to run Cabal Therapy effectively without Duress to compliment it.

I have been testing this deck out recently, and it's been doing very well for me. To tell the truth, I dont like this deck much, but it wins. I really dont like that logic when it comes to building a deck, but it works I guess...


// IcBE Fish
// Lands 17
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Island


// Creatures 16-17
4 Meddling Mage
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
2 Dark Confidant/3 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Jotun Grunt


// Spells 27
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Duress
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte


// Sideboard 15
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Engineered Plague
3 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle
3 Cabal Therapy


Janky isnt it? No. I have tested this deck for the past few days, and let me say it's been amazing in testing. I lessened my game against Goblins to make sure my match-ups against decks like Threshold, Control, and Combo dont have a chance. In testing with the original Hanni Fish, I always loss Game 1, no matter how hard I try. Dark Confidants were the first thing I got to see die. Stifles were good, but they were narrow against Threshold. I didnt like Serra Avenger much, as she doesnt come out until turn 4, and dies to things like Lightning Bolt. I felt like if I needed another good beater, it should win me the game right on the spot. A friend of mine who plays at my weekly tournament, Lenny was playing this deck with Phyrexian Nagators instead of Serra Avenger. I looked at how many games he won, and realized all of them involved Phyrexian Negator. I remembered this while I was playing Red Death (great deck btw), and realized how powerful he was.

Pros:
Synergized with Grunt
Synergizes with Mom
Under costed threat
Tramples
Good against Thresh
Good against Combo
Good against Aggro w/ Mom backed up

Cons:
Kills your own perms
Cant be killed by Ghastly Demise


Well.... is that a good reason? Well, for me, of course!


I needed more then Umezawa's Jitte, and I needed a Midgame. Shadowmage Infiltrators are somewhat evasive. I wanted to be aggressive, but Dark Confidant just wouldnt let me. Shadowmage Infiltrator was obviously dead sexy: it synergizes with Equipment, it draws you cards, and it makes a great blocker and attacker. I liked Confidant as well, and with the help of these two wizards, I knew that this is enough to fuel both Phyrexian Negator and Jotun Grunt, so I cut Moms from the deck (It was metagame dependent for me, as I wanted Mom in an aggro/aggro control meta, and Confidant in a Combo and Aggro Control meta). Sword of Fire and Ice is another piece of sexy tech from Lenny that made it's way into the deck. With Shadowmage Infiltrators (Italian tech btw), and Negator, it was able to give me full access though cycling the deck, as well as an endless supply of removal to keep this deck going.

I like having 4 Dazes and 3 Duresses as this deck is very aggressive. Any resolution of any bombs in this deck can easily mean GG.

Therapies get sided in against Control and Combo. It gives me information of what they sided in against me, as well as savage goodness with MM and Duress. The entire SB is just standard.

Props to Lenny for 2 Pieces of tech, as well as the italians for Finkel. I really want some opinions on this deck at the moment.

@Anti-American: Well, just eyeballing the list... It doesn't seem like 17 lands could possibly be enough. And Phyrexian Negator seems pretty iffy in any deck that doesn't run Dark Ritual. Shadowmage Infitrators are sexy, though.

@Volt: Thanks. 17 Lands is enough, as I cheat on my land count early game with Cantrips, and midgame with Finkel and Bob. The Negators are good enough. When I played Red Death, they were usually the 2nd thing that comes out, as first thing always has to be disruption. I play Duress, then Meddling Mage, and with so much tempo advantage from there, I try and end the game quickly with Grunts and Negators.

I've recently been testing a UW fish build, very similar to this (minus, obviously, bob). I ran the two-of serra avenger and found (even with a two-color mana base) that the WW could be annoying to pay. And then all I'd have was a 3/3.

My question is, do you ever think that the hassle to get (and keep) WW is not worth the creature you get out of it. Is there an alternative to avenger that works similarly?

I'm asking because I love fish decks, but I don't like avenger. I've tried serendib efreet in its place, but the 3cc and additional damage is annoying. Maybe maindeck galina's knight?

Serra Avenger is awesome.
3/3 Flying is good, but damn! It has Vigilance.
It beats for 3 and blocks.

Even in UW, it should'nt be a problem to get WW.

I play 17 Lands in UWB and had just 1-2 times problem to support the Avenger and this problems was only against goblins, where I fetched Usea before for Plague.

In my recent list, I've been running Hymn to Tourach and Serra Avenger and 17 land and I have no problem getting either. I do not think mana is a problem at all.

My lands are:
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Plains

Hanni, I think you shot yourself in the foot by posting this here. Your build was pretty much perfect as it was, you got tenth at DFD. Now I see every buffoon on MWS playing this deck. 90% of the time I see an underground sea i know what the deck is before they make another move.

It's a great deck don't get me wrong but I hope it doesn't become too popular. Once you know what you are playing, it isn't too difficult to beat. Chalice at 1 from the SB wrecks it, turn one or two. Especially game 1 you are going to have some trouble with that card. Needle on Jitte is the suck for you. But anyway...

Good deck, but I hope it doesn't get too popular :-p

It is good when people don't know wtf just killed them.

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Hanni, I think you shot yourself in the foot by posting this here. Your build was pretty much perfect as it was, you got tenth at DFD. Now I see every buffoon on MWS playing this deck. 90% of the time I see an underground sea i know what the deck is before they make another move.

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I just wanted to get the archtype out there... it's a strong deck and I wanted to be recognized for that.

Quote:

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It's a great deck don't get me wrong but I hope it doesn't become too popular. Once you know what you are playing, it isn't too difficult to beat. Chalice at 1 from the SB wrecks it, turn one or two. Especially game 1 you are going to have some trouble with that card. Needle on Jitte is the suck for you. But anyway...

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Well see, the thing is, anyone playing Chalice is gonna drop Chalice for 1 anyways. In fact, Chalice for 2 is much worse than Chalice for 1 against this deck anyway. Needle isn't really a strong card against me either... the only targets for it (besides the potential Engineered Explosives from the board) is Jitte and Mother of Runes, both of which are support to my aggro base and not my aggro base itself. I run 3 of each rather than 4, so Needle isn't a bomb against me.

Anyway, onto actual content:

-1 Tundra
+1 Polluted Delta

The deck still retains the same amount of u/w sources but this way it gets an additional tutor for the lone Swamp and Island, extra thinning, extra grave filling for Grunt, extra shuffle effects for Brainstorm, and a stronger stability against Goblins. It opens the deck up more to Stifle but it strengthens the manabase against Goblins, which is a trade-off I'm willing to make.

So I got to thinking about my sideboard today and I think it's time to revamp. My testing gauntlet on MWS isn't the best, but I find myself hardly using most of my sideboard. Against the Top 3, the only cards that come out of the board are: 3x Duress (Solidarity, Threshold), 4x Engineered Plague (Goblins), 2x Pithing Needle (Goblins, possibly Solidarity), 1x Perish (Threshold), and 2x Engineered Explosives (Threshold).

What exactly is Serenity's place? It seems like it's only amazing against Stax and Affinity, both of which make up very small portions of the field. It was useful against decks like FS and AS, but remotely. Is the Affinity matchup that bad to where Serenity is really necessary? I really don't think it is, not at all. Every game I've played against Affinity minus a few I've won and Serenity always comes out as overkill. I think the extra Jitte is more than enough, personally. Serenity is only better than Disenchant against decks with multiple artifacts/enchantments... otherwise, it's simply slower. I was thinking of how strong Vindicate used to be against Angel Stompy. It not only gave me additional answers to Exalted Angel (which is a bomb if unanswered), but it also answers Parallax Wave (which is also a bomb if unanswered). Aside from that, it answers equipment too. 3cc is slow, yes, but the card is strong against them. Add to the fact that they are mana hungry and sometimes have mana issues (4 mana required for Angel, 2/2 for Jitte, 3/2 for SoFI, 4 for Wave) means blowing up a Tomb can also be a devastating tempo gain. Against Faerie Stompy, it's an answer to Chalice that can't be Needled or... Chaliced (set to 2). It also answers their equipment if necessary, provides additional answers to their big fliers, and can be devastating if you remove their only blue source.

-2 Serenity
+2 Vindicate

What role does Engineered Explosives serve? It's good against decks that produce alot of permanents in the 1cc range or untargetable threats, but it nukes my own guys at 2 and requires a large mana investment to be set and blown at 3. Useful against Zoo? I'd rather have Jitte. Useful against AS/FS? I'd rather have Vindicate/Jitte. It's solid against Threshold to remove Mongoose/Needle but Perish is just a stronger card, especially since EE can be Needle'd (or Stifle'd). Until I can find reasoning to back this card besides random versatility, it just doesn't seem to be pulling its weight in any matchups.

-2 Engineered Explosives

As far as Pithing Needle goes, I've only been boarding in 2 against Goblins because that's all I have room for. Stifle is stronger against Goblins, in my opinion. Pithing Needle answers Port, which is nice. For Wasteland, simply fetching basics works well enough with Stifle being a stronger answer than Needle IMO. It can shut down Incinerator/Fanatic, though I think Stifle works better. The main use, I think, is to shut down Vial... which I agree is strong. However, I just don't think more than 2 Needle's is necessary anymore now that the deck MD's 3 Stifle. There are other decks where 3 Needle is strong... Survival, Control decks (Scepter, manlands, Cursed Scroll, Maze of Ith, Decree of Justice, Eternal Dragon, etc). However, I think Winter Orb or Armageddon is also strong against those decks (or Vindicate in some cases). The control matchup is somewhat bad for this deck... it's not an autoloss, but it's not a strong matchup. I think Winter Orb seems extremely strong. The board gives Duress and Needle right now. An extra 2 Winter Orbs seems solid.

-1 Pithing Needle
+2 Winter Orb

With the final spot, and the lack of Engineered Explosives against Threshold, I'll add an extra Perish for now.

+1 Perish

This is just from a small brainstorm session I had and nothing has actually been tested yet. This is just my current train of thought for the sideboard right now. I was considering fitting a 4th Jitte into the sideboard since it's so strong against random aggro/Affinity, etc but I'm thinking that 4 is overkill. Adding 1 more Vindicate may also be good (for FS/AS and randomness), I'm not sure. I'm also not sure if I want to drop my Needle count down to 2. This is going to need a bit of testing; this will be a work in progress.

Revamped Sideboard (15)
3 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
2 Vindicate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Winter Orb

EDIT: Okay, after brainstorming for a little while after this post, I've had a few more ideas.

Perish just seems to narrow. It's good against Threshold but beyond that there isn't much... and Threshold is already favorable. 9 Land Stompy and Elves! just aren't enough to warrant it. It's only marginally useful against Zoo and RG(b)SA. I still want a little extra Threshold tech, but I think that can be done with more versatile cards.

The 4th Duress seems strong against combo, control, and Threshold. I like it against Thresh because it reduces the card quality that they spend alot of tempo to gain and allows me to control the board better by making sure my Grunts and Confidant's resolve, etc. Against combo, it's just 1 more card that makes sure I don't lose. Against control, it allows me to remove things like mass removal, which in fact makes a huge sway in card advantage (or hitting FoF is strong too).

1 lone Engineered Explosives gives me 1 more answer to Chalice at 1 or 2. 1 doesn't much a huge difference but it still gives me the ability to nuke Needle/Mongoose when set to 1, and having only 1 means that Needle on EE isn't a strong play for my opponent. It's an extra card to come in with Vindicate against AS/FS and can be randomly good against Zoo or 9 Land Stompy or something. Either way, it's broader than Perish.

-2 Perish
+1 Duress
+1 Engineered Explosives

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [B] Island (3)
1 [B] Plains (1)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland

// Creatures
2 [AN] Serendib Efreet
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [RAV] Darkblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [B] Disenchant
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

This is the list I would pack. I don't like Serra Avenger, and Efreet can pitch to Force of Will. I may cut one land, and find something instead of Mother of Runes, but I don't know what for yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Anyway, onto actual content:

-1 Tundra
+1 Polluted Delta

The deck still retains the same amount of u/w sources but this way it gets an additional tutor for the lone Swamp and Island, extra thinning, extra grave filling for Grunt, extra shuffle effects for Brainstorm, and a stronger stability against Goblins. It opens the deck up more to Stifle but it strengthens the manabase against Goblins, which is a trade-off I'm willing to make.

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After having tested this deck, my suggestion would be to cut the basic Swamp. You run at most 6 maindeck cards that are black. You should be able to fetch for an Underground Sea or even the Scrubland when you actually need to play a black spell. Having a Swamp or Plains in your opening hand is like not having a land because it doesn't allow you to cast the majority of your spells and this is especially true for black since it is the 3rd color. Plains is probably acceptable as most your threats require white as part of the casting cost, but Swamp certainly isn't. The main deck that you are concerned about that plays wasteland is Goblins and casting Dark Confidant is usually not very strong against them. It seems pointless to play Swamp for a matchup where you won't even need to cast 4 of the 6 cards that are black in the main deck instead of having a blue source that can help you cast cantrips so that you can have access to black should you actually need it.

The entire reason I play the basic Swamp is for Goblins... Engineered Plague is not only a very strong card, it can also very difficult to cast through Port/Wasteland. The ability to fetch Island, Plains, Swamp to cast Engineered Plague is very strong. I haven't really had mana concerns with the lone Swamp in starting hands and the Island/Plains are very strong since I can cast almost everything in my deck with 1 Island 1 Plains.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

The entire reason I play the basic Swamp is for Goblins... Engineered Plague is not only a very strong card, it can also very difficult to cast through Port/Wasteland. The ability to fetch Island, Plains, Swamp to cast Engineered Plague is very strong. I haven't really had mana concerns with the lone Swamp in starting hands and the Island/Plains are very strong since I can cast almost everything in my deck with 1 Island 1 Plains.

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But basic swamp is awful game 1 against Goblins because you only have 6 black cards and you should be able to play those off non-basics if you even want to play them. As for playing Plague in game 2, shouldn't you be able to play Island and Plains and then simply sit on a fetch and play Plague. Swamp only gets around Wasteland as Port can still hit any of your lands anyway. If you are worried about Wasteland against Goblins why not Sideboard Stifle as it can be used to hit Matrons, Ringleaders, Gempalms, and Wastelands instead of playing a basic Swamp which is sub-optimal in every other matchup (and I would argue even against Goblins).

Armageddon > Winter Orb at least try it. I know you (Hanni) are not a fan of Armageddon but please don't run a sub optimal card in it's place.

On the topic of Lose Hope.
Don't you find it dead against creatureless decks or when you are getting beaten down my Mongooses?
Would a more versatile card that can still handle Lackey be better?
I was originally thinking of Funeral Charm but then they printed Piracy Charm which is generally better in that it is in your main color (i.e. you can still go first turn basic island to avoid wasteland), it can be pitched to force of will as well. Though it can be REB so you would have to play around that game 2 and 3 against goblins if needed.

I agree with Anwar that the basic Swamp is probably unnecessary. Fetching a swamp doesn't stop port from beating you and you can always fetch the turn you are going to drop plague to get around wasteland. Drawing the swamp early is horrible for the deck as you have quite a lot of other color commitments.

I would like to submit my decklist for critisism:
// Lands
1 [7E] Swamp (4)
2 [MI] Plains (1)
3 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [b] Underground Sea
1 [MI] Island (1)

// Creatures
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger
2 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [AP] Spectral Lynx

// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [FNM] Duress
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

No offense, but 2 Bob? never run less than 4. And no Daze?
I also run 3 extirpate main, and it seems to work (warchief?).
Also Top seems to mana intensive, and avenger to not 4-in-the-butt, and not pitchable to force enough ( run serendib efreet)
Lastly I'd run a couple of artifact lands to fetch w/trinket mage

Btw here's my decklist for examination:

The Mana-18
4 Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Plains
1 Island

The Dudes-16
4 Meddling Mge
4 Bob
3 Mom
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serendib efreet

The Non-Dudes-26
4 FoW
4 Stp
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 serum Visions
3 Stifle
3 Extirpate
2 Jitte

SB
4 Plague
4 Duress
2 Needle (of the Pithing variety)
2 Vindicate
2 Massacre*
1 Jitte

*the good builds of goblins run 3 plateau

I was under the impression that Avenger pretty much hauled ass, so why are people cutting them? For Efreet? It doesn't have vigilance, so it can't pull double duty on attack and defense and it doesn't pwn with Jitte like Avenger does. And what does it matter if it pitches to FoW? Hello..:

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Meddling Mage
3 Daze
3 Stifle

Why are those 22 cards not enough? Avenger is just too nuts not to play. And 2 Confidant? Why? He's called sick card advantage, pumping you gas after gas to keep you in the game. He's a 4 or none kind of card in this deck.