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You coming to the EPIC DLD? I know some people from Mass are coming down, and you can probably get Savannahs as low as 9th place depending on turnout.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing4Five
As to Razormane Masticore, I played it the other day, and only ever used it for pumping goyf, once on my opponent's so that BGHunter could kill it. I never actually cast it, and I think I might go back to the regular Core, as it is better in the mirror I think, killing mana critters asap, and more than one.
Are any of the Evoke creatures worthwhile? Wispmare nukes enchantments for W and Ingot Chewer does the same to artifacts for R. Shriekmaw is obviously good and will replace Big Game Hunter.
Shriekmaw will probably replace Bone Shredder; Big Game Hunter's ability to be cast at instant speed still makes him a worthwhile slot against Breakfast imo.
Depending upon what you are playing, the artifact and enchantment evokers could make the cut. Wispmare seems pretty ehh to me, costing 3 and only hitting enchantments
I don't like the idea of making changes to the deck to make the threshold matchup better. It already has a great threshold matchup, and if it aint broke don't fix it. I feel it only hurts the matchups you don't have a good shot of winning all the time. I played goblins three times at my last big event, and magus of the moon and big game hunter werent all they were cracked up to be. Neither was all my discard. Shreikmaw seems ok, but only if I bust out the winding canyons again.
I think Big Game Hunter is intended to be used against huge hasty Sutured Ghouls. If you have a handful of creatures and an active Survival, you can take out the big man for BGG.
It also nukes Goyfs, but that's just a perk.
I'm trying to retool my survival deck, but I'm still not sure if I'm happy with the builds with the current metagame in mind.
Couple of inquiries:
What are opinions on still using the Saffi/Champ/Caller combo post-Lorwyn? I like having the option to combo off, but it's just so vulnerable. And I tend to get carried away trying to set up the combo rather than trying to answer other situations such as board control and such. But on the other hand, it can speed-win games where I wouldn't have won otherwise, and it can make my opponent take extra precautions against the combo, giving me a bit more breathing room.
Also, Vials. I don't see them being used anymore. What gives? It synergizes well with Survival, letting me dig for the creature that I can immediately vial out. It's been doing really well for me.
And Slivers. I think I'm going with 2 Harmonic, 1 Necrotic, and 1 Darkheart (maybe sideboard this one). The Necrotic/Darkheart is pretty new to me, what's been the result for people who has tried them? Necrotic seems slightly expensive, but it gives me some options against certain matchups, if anything it takes Goyf out. Darkheart's a complete toss-in, since almost everything can be done better by the Loxodon peanut, but I'm just giving it a test-run for the other slivers' sake.
Went off on a ramble there. Anyways, thoughts?
I'm also trying the sliver theme in my deck using 1 Harmonic, 1 Necrotic and 1 Darkheart sliver. The synergy between them is too good to not test it. Maybe I'll have a second Harmonic in the board because of Stax, which has become quite succesful here.
The Saffi-Combo ist way too slow for me, it requires to assemble 3 creatures, it needs 7 mana, and its vulnerable to counters. It may work better with Vials, but its still fragile. I prefer getting 3 Goyfs and beat face.
I think the Vials are not needed anymore, since our big beaters only cost 2. With lots of FTK and Hierarchs / Baloths they are better, but I think they're just outdated.
@ Lone Signal & MindTwiZt
That combo is horrendous to assemble and extremely fragile.
Slivers:
Darkheart is trumped by the Loxodon with immediate lifegain and fattness.
Necrotic is in 2 of your splash colors and requires an insane amount of mana investment, just use Bone Shredder/BGH/Harmonic/V Zealot.
Harmonic and Zealot are debatable, I prefer the Zealot as he doesn't require white mana and is recurrable via his self-sacrifice.
@ Mulletus
Magus is a one-of sideboard card and BGH has applications in almost every matchup outside of IGGY/Belcher which are on the decline due to Breakfast, if these are the only changes you are refering too I don't see how they could have affected your Gob's matchup so badly. I also don't see why canyons are needed for Shreikmaw if they aren't for Bone Shredder...
@ Jaynel
the W and R evokes may get a sideboard slot each if the expected metagame calls for them, Zealot covers both their jobs in the main color, although at quadruple the cost. I'm replacing the Bone Shredder slot with Shriekmaw and keeping the BGH, for the reasons you later posted.
@ bigbear
I unfortunately won't be making it out to this DLD. If I did manage to make it out there I'd have to pick up a set of duals of one kind or another... unless I cut Thresh to straight UG.
I am hoping to make it out to one of your Epic events, you seem to have an amazing Legacy scene out there, luckily we've got an awesome Vintage gauntlet to hold me over. :tongue:
Has anybody tried Sneak Attack? The goddamn :3::r: is too high, but if you could actually get it online, everything from there on out would only cost :g::r:, could be done at instant speed, could not be countered (except for Pithing Needle, or delayed with Stifle, I guess), and you can easily splash off-color utility creatures.
Anything you put in the graveyard that you need again, it's just :g::r: for a Loaming Shaman or Eternal Witness, and you're back in action.
Big Game Hunter
Harmonic Sliver
Flametongue Kavu
Shriekmaw
Sundering Titan (use at your own risk)
Magus of the Moon
Draining Whelk
Goblin Sharpshooter
Darksteel Colossus (the best finisher, recurs himself automatically)
And for the truely obnoxious, Nicol Bolas
I've fooled around with it a little, but the deck is nearly crippled unless you can get both enchantments in play :frown:. I have a big notion that this ideas falls into the "beware of cool things" category.
It also feels like if you can live long enough to get the engine online, you probably could have just won via the normal Survival routes...
Any ideas on how to make it more consistent?
why not a green black blue version of survival here is what i am testing:
4 tarmogoyf
4 vinelasher kudzu
4 dark confidant
4 shriekmaw
4 surival of the fittest
disrupt
4 duress/thoughseize
4 spell snare/daze (i prefer spell snare)
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
1 zealoth
1 tombstalker
1 big hunter
1 squee goblin nabab
mana base
4 polluted delta
4 wooded foothils
2 windswepth heath
3 bayou
3 tropical island
1 underground sea
1 forest
1 swamp
1 island
No sideboard yet but this deck is really amazing in testing ...
All the cards are bomb spells and must be countered.
The problem could be the mana base.
I count 12 blue cards. To go with force of will. First problem.
Second problem? You have 9 5+cc cards in a deck with 4 psuedo-scrye effects, and you're running four confidants.
In short, no. Say no to this deck.
It's very easy to solve both problems. For the first, cut the Duress slot for more counters/cantrips, and add a couple of blue critters (Wonder and Tradewind Rider being the first that come to mind). For the second, just don't play Dark Confidant like every other build of Survival does; I don't think it's needed, really.
There hasn't been any discussion of the deck in a while, and there are a few card choices that seem pretty similar in power level. So here is what I have, along with the outstanding ideas/card choices/considerations that are relevant.
4 Birds
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Shriekmaw
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Darkheart Sliver
2 Ravenous Baloth
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Thoughtsieze/Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Burning Wish
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
4 Bayou
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Forest
Sideboard:
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Reanimate
1 Deathmark
1 Hull Breach
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Anarchy
1 Ruination
1 Massacre
3 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague
Lingering Questions/Design Considerations:
Thoughtsieze: -4 Duress, +4 of these. I tested them for a while, but most of the time I was getting things Duress grabs anyways. Play them if you want; they are probably better overall. If you plan on playing against Goblins, this is even easier. The life loss doesn't even seem too bad, as there aren't that many fetchlands and Baloth and Darkheart Sliver are mainboard.
Mogg Fantastic: I played him for a while. Good against Breakfast and Goblins, Ichorid and Angel Stompy. Food for throwing at Goyfs if they run into each other. Do they deserve a slot? Probably. Where? Are they better than the things they take out? I am unsure.
-1 Shriekmaw, -1 Duress, -1 Burning Wish, +3 Fanatics (?)
Magus of the Moon: Amazing. 2 or 3? More?
Dark Confidant: Amazing....but in this deck? Shriekmaw x3, FtK x1, Genesis x1, Anger x1, Baloth x1-2...about a quarter of the deck costs 3 or more. Powerful? Absolutely. With the added number of Shriekmaws, I've removed him, but that may not be the right decision. If you run Thoughtsieze, the decision seems even more lopsided.
Another thing that makes me hesitate about cutting more threats from the deck for Bob is his CC. Right now, Counterbalance nails Survival, Burning Wish (our enchantment removal), Tarmogoyf (our "lets ignore the enchantment and beat face" element), Tin Street Hooligan (so even if SotF is down, it won't work for long), and other random dudes. Adding another bomb to the deck is always awesome, but Bob falls prey to the exact same thing that hits the other bombs in the deck. As Thresh is the most played deck of the moment, I think adding Bob is going to make the match even harder than it needs to be.
Loaming Shaman: I really like this guy. Solid against Landstill, mediocre most other places because you run Goyfs and Survivals to find them. He was much, much better (mainboard worthy) before Goyf, but now he doesn't even find space in my sideboard anymore.
Quirion Ranger: Should there be one main? Probably. Is it significant enough to find room for? Maybe.
White: White offers StP, Loxodon Heirarch, and Doran. Loxodon Heirarch is better than Baloth, and Swords is better than FtK or Mogg Fanatic. Doran is pretty sweet...but he's just a beater. Is white worth losing Anger and Burning Wish? I don't think so.
I only have a few thoughts since I'm not an avid Survival player. First would be about the wishboard. Don't you think it's worth it to split up the artifact and enchantement hate into Shatttering Spree and Reverant Silence? A) That wins you some matchups right there, and B) If you get your Wish off early enough, that allows you to get around Counterbalance and Chalice @2, both of which destroy you.
Is the Goblins matchup really so bad that 4 Plauges are the right call in the board? I would have expected Leylines with the multitude of graveyard decks floating around.
In testing I've been running this wish board:
1 Hull breach
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Primal Command
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Meltdown (I don't own Seeds of Innocence and I'm not convinced its better than meltdown anyway)
1 Regrowth
1 Tsunami
1 Chainers Edict
I cut the Boom/Bust because I felt there was no situation where I could resolve a Boom/Bust and couldn't simply win with Haunting Echoes instead. 7 discard spells helps it resolve a lot easier. Other than that I feel the wish board Brian made was perfect. I need to get my hands on Seeds of Innocence so I can see if it is indeed better than Meltdown.
No, not by itself, but EPlague must be removed before Breakfast can win, stops Ichorids, and is better than Shriekmaw and FtK against Belcher. It even nails Disciple of the Vault, which Shriekmaw can't do. Breakfast, Ichorid, and Goblins are all decks that RGBSA can use a boost against, and EPlague does it against all of them. The other card for that slot that switch in and out are more Pyroclasms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
As for splitting up Hull Breach, sometimes yes. On the other hand, if you resolve BWish against Counterbalance in the late game, you can resolve Hull Breach the same turn to nail Counterbalance and Needle. I've won games off of Planar Void and Pithing Needle both dying, but lost games when I needed Reverent Silence against Enchantress.
When and how often do you find yourself wishing for this? And which two do you choose? I've seen this in boards before, but was uncertain as to how often it would actually get wished for. It's certainly a lot of flexibility....but for 4RGG it seems expensive. It looks really cool, but how often is it that cool?Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
I run Ruination in this slot, because against Thresh you still nuke all of their lands, but you also get the Manlands in Landstill. You do nail some of your lands, but when you start the match, you know you have Ruination and that it might be the best wish target, and they don't know that. In game two, Thresh can do more about it, but Landstill really can't (except saving a counter for it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
@AngryTroll
I'm happy with 2, but a 3rd could find it's way into the sideboard. In matchups it's really bad against, it's really bad. Also, I would adjust your manabase to support him better. I run a 4c manabase and can probably operate better under a Magus than you could in your current form. The best way to work with Magus properly is to maximize the number of basics and fetchlands and go down on duals. You can easily get away with 3 Taiga 3 Bayou, and run an additional fetchland and basic, or 2 fetchlands. You will almost always be better in a Magus situation with additional access to basics. My personal manabase is 8 fetchlands, 3 Bayou, 2 Taiga, 2 Savannah, 5 Forest, and I rarely have a problem with him. I'd also cut a basic Swamp for another Bloodstained Mire. Having 3 non-green lands in the deck can seriously be an issue. If it's a fetchland, so can still get the basic Swamp, but also have more access to green mana sources.Quote:
Magus of the Moon: Amazing. 2 or 3? More?
Dark Confidant: With Shriekmaw now being the best removal the deck has, it is difficult to justify Bob's inclusion. There are just too many high cc cards in the deck. Plus, the deck runs perfectly find without Survival these days; it's basically the Rock w/o Pernicious Deed.
Loaming Shaman: I personally find him incredibly weak. If you hit an opponent's graveyard, you're screwing with your own Tarmogoyfs, and in most cases, they won't have a very threatening situation in the yard, unless it's Ichorid, and you will most likely be dead by then. If it's yard hate you want, I'd much rather use Withered Wretch, Yixlid Jailer, or the best option, Extirpate.
This is debatable depending on how you build the deck. With Quirion Ranger, you can afford to drop a land (in your case go from 21 to 20), and open the possibility of Masticore as Rofellos would add abscene amounts of mana. He also fixes mana, protects from Wasteland, allows land drops, and adds mana with Birds, and keeps your Tarmogoyfs untapped so they block and smash. He is the tits. I personally have 2 Quirion Ranger in my deck now because he does sooo much, but it really comes down to personal preference and deck design.Quote:
Quirion Ranger: Should there be one main? Probably. Is it significant enough to find room for? Maybe.
I would replace FTK with Fire Imp. There is very rarely a time that the damage part is a concern, because almost nothing barring Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf has an ass > 2, and if they do, Shriekmaw will kill it. The fact that Fire Imp costs only 2R has made a significant impact on the deck. I also really dislike Big Game Hunter. Perhaps it's just me, but he just doesn't cut it against anything not Sutured Ghoul or Tarmogoyf. I'd much rather have something that can kill everything, like Shriekmaw.Quote:
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Big Game Hunter
Are all of these necessary? I think Baloth is getting a bit slow, and you can really find more effecient beater-to-mana ratio. I would stick with just one of them, or maybe a Darkheart and one Baloth, but I doubt you need them both.Quote:
1 Darkheart Sliver
2 Ravenous Baloth
You can run white and keep red in the deck. I will post my decklist below, and I've had tremendous success with it. You do lose Burning Wish though, so I'm not sure how people feel about that. Doran sucks though. A generic beater that is difficult to cast is now worth playing with. White does give you access to Harmonic Sliver and Gaddock Teeg though, which is insanely convenient. In all honesty, the only reason I run white in the deck over RGB is because of the Harmonic/Darkheart combo. That little synergy has won me more matches than Tarmogoyf.Quote:
White: White offers StP, Loxodon Heirarch, and Doran. Loxodon Heirarch is better than Baloth, and Swords is better than FtK or Mogg Fanatic. Doran is pretty sweet...but he's just a beater. Is white worth losing Anger and Burning Wish? I don't think so.
Quote:
GBWr Survival
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Eternal Witness
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Shriekmaw
1 Fire Imp
1 Masticore
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Darkheart Sliver
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
5 Forest
Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddok Teeg
2 Tsunami
2 Extirpate
I've had incredible success with this list for the last couple months. My only gripe is that I don't have Thoughtseize maindeck, but I perfer StP in the main so Tarmogoyf is never a threat and I have a much better aggro matchup. Seriously, the aggro matchup is phenomenal. 8 removal spells + Tarmogoyf + Nimble Mongoose = good times. Goblins is a near-autowin, especially post-board.
I don't miss Burning Wish really. The thing is, Counterbalance is incredibly popular now. Counterbalance @ 2 is a big fucking problem. The RGB lists have almost no way of getting around that, because Hull Breach costs 2 as well. That's why I've upped the Krosan Grip count to 3. Grip is one of the strongest cards in the format right now, because artifacts and enchantments happen to be ridiculously good atm. The rest of the sideboard is rather self-explanitory, but I do miss the 4th Thoughtseize. I just wanted the 2nd Teeg. But Extirpate is the nuts, and Tsunami is incredibly given we have like 60% islands. Plague is also a no-brainer. I've been tinkering with the idea of Engineered Explosives though. With a 4c manabase, and Birds, I can wipe out anything. Problem is my own board is so varied I'd be getting hit on my own. Oh well, testing will tell.
That list is darn sexy.
You don't seem to have access to white or black under a Magus of the Moon, besides Bird. Is that a problem? That's the reason for the high number of swamps in my list, because I still want to cast disruption and Shriekmaws under Magus.
How is the Thresh matchup? You are right; Counterbalance is becoming more and more a problem for a deck that packs its bombs into the 2cc slot. However, the biggest change from the RGB list to your list is -4 BWish, +4 StP, which costs 1....the other cc that Thresh owns with Counterbalance. You do get Harmonic Sliver, though, which owns Counterbalance.
How is the Landstill match? I imagine that it is still pretty solid.
The access to white/black with Magus could be problematic at times, but I wouldn't drop him with the need for colored sources unless it would win me the game. If I have Survival though, I could easily tutor up a Bird and work off of that just fine, but so far I've almost never had an issue with losing the other colors because Magus is such a beating against the opponent, to the point where the other colors shouldn't be necessary. It just requires proper placement as to when you cast him.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryTroll
The Threshold matchup is still above and beyond. The only card I worry about, only card, is Counterbalance. Tarmogoyf is a joke against a deck with 4 of their own + a ton of removal, and Nimble Mongoose can trade with mine. My list is basically the threat base of Threshold, but you still get the handful of other bombs. If you can Therapy/Harmonic a Counterbalance, you shouldn't have any problems at all. Post-board though I bring in Grips, Thoughtseizes, Extirpates, and Tsunami, so it goes to the point of overwhelming.
The Landstill matchup, although I haven't lost to it in a while, I feel is close even, but slightly favorable. It greatly depends on the start of the game for each player, even though you have so many tools to kill them. If they're able to handle your first 3-4 threats, they will eventually overwhelm you with card advantage. On the other hand, if you just resolve something like a turn 2 Survival, it is very difficult to lose. Magus doesn't make their life easier, and neither does Genesis. Post-board you have an incredible amount of tools to bring in depending on the build: Teeg for EE, Wog, FoW, FoF, etc; Thoughtseize for obvious; Tsunami for obvious; Extirpate because it is awesome; Krosan Grip if you expect Humility, Shackles, Deed, etc.
The only matchups I'm really worried about are combo decks, Humility decks, and (sadly) Goyf Sligh. Goyf Sligh can really be a problem if you're not able to establish a solid start. Otherwise the deck just overpowers everything else. It has everything aggro decks have but a robust engine along with it, and blue decks can't match the number of threats you have.