[Deck] Burn

For the artifact list, did you consider Isochron Scepter and/or Sensei's Divining Top? Note that Top can draw a card AND be sacrificed to blast in response.

Nevertheless, my list is not artifact-based; I have tried several, but none has resulted more profitful than actual bauble burn! In my testing this outperforms traditional burn by only running quality burn spells and draw, a minimal land count and more consistency.

The list:

// Lands (16)
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
8 [TSP] Mountain (1)

// Cantrips (16)
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [IA] Urza's Bauble
4 [CS] Mishra's Bauble
4 [LOR] Needle Drop

// Burn Spells (28)
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [VI] Fireblast
4 [NE] Flame Rift

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 2 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex

SB: 2 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In

SB: 2 [DS] Dragon's Claw

SB: 1 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast

SB: 3 [10E] Guerrilla Tactics
SB: 3 [10E] Smash

(The sideboard is still partially work in progress, most due to metagame)

Card Choices:
Only 16 lands: by running 12-16 cantrips, these are enough! Also, cantrips and fetchlands make barbarian rings stronger

Needle drop: cantrips 13-16; the drawback is irrelevant in a burn deck, and 1 red mana for 1 dmg and 1 card just makes this an instant-speed, overcosted and damaging bauble / wraith.

Other slots: best-efficient burn suite. PoP is a must in the format, and can be sided out vs basics; 4xfireblast with only 8 mountains seem too much, but actually aren't: in a 16-cantrips, 6-fetchlands, 60-card deck 8 mountains have the occurency frequence of 19 mountains in a 0-cantrip, no-fetchlands, 60-card deck.

Not included:
Mogg Fanatic: this can be substituted for needle drop; but he never deals more than 1-2 dmg so is subpar. Only useful for defence; but I want to go to the dome, pure attack - no defence.
Incinerate: there are better options: flame rift costs the same and deals 4 instead of 3 (and is the worst burn spell of the deck).
Magma jet: subpar burn, and the scrying just improves card quality, not quantity; with 16 cantrips, I have sufficient draw, and all cards drawn are useful; it is very rare, in this build, being mana flooded.

Sideboard: this is most metagame choices: smash is a last-second addition because of the presence of CoTV in my meta (anything better?); in case of need, I usually side out needles, flame rifts and/or PoPs (depending on my opp's nonbasics count).

The below is my build. I am unfortunately unable to buy the higher priced card for a burn deck so no suggestions that I add Chain Lightning in place of the Shock please, I know I need it, but I can't afford it. so I have designed a budget version of the deck.

Lands
3 x Barbarian Ring
17 x Snow-Covered Mountains
...
Creatures
4 x Keldon Marauders
4 x Mogg Fanatic
...
Instants
4 x Fireblast
3 x Flames of the Blood Hand
4 x Incinerate
4 x Magma Jet
1 x Fork
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Shock
...
Sorceries
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Lava Spike
...
Sideboard
3 x Anarchy
3 x Flamebreak
3 x Shattering Spree
3 x Red Elemental Blast
3 x Sulfuric Vortex

I played 3 games at my local legacy tournament, unfortunately the deck wasn't complete at the time, but it gave me an idea of what to expect for when the deck was complete. The decks that gave me trouble were an Angel-Stax deck, I think I can handle that if I use Shattering Spree and Anarchy though. And also a Black Braids deck. The black braids deck was the harder of the two to gage because it was kind of a rogue deck. The only deck of the three that I was able to defeat was an Elf-combo deck.

I have been hmm-ing and hawing about whether or not to take the Keldon Marauders out for Sulfuric Vortexes... but I did some gold fishing and Sulfuric Vortex netted me around 4 damage for :1::r::r: casting cost where as Marauders can net me around 2 - 5 damage for :1::r: casting cost. The only real advantage I see for Sulfuric Vortex is that it effectively shuts down life gain decks, which I have yet to actually encounter at my meta. So I have to ask, is Sulfuric Vortex really worth spending a slot on?

If you don't have Chain Lightnings (incidentally, a sorcery), then all the more reason for running a Sacearuse-style build, with 12-15 free cyclers (Street Wraith, Baubles, Stars).

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Originally Posted by Kundalini

Needle drop: cantrips 13-16; the drawback is irrelevant in a burn deck, and 1 red mana for 1 dmg and 1 card just makes this an instant-speed, overcosted and damaging bauble / wraith.

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You make good points, but I don't feel comfortable running Needle Drop myself. One, it is a horrible top deck after you played out your hand. Two, one mana one dmg no matter how you cut it is slow. Mogg at least can remove bridges. Maybe if you had four lands out it would be great because you could use that card you drew that turn. However, turns 2-3 it just ties up your mana.

@Shrapnel Burn: What about Ensnaring brigade? It can stop angry men from attacking you, and later sac it for the win. Yeah it sucks against storm combo but even against Ichorid it could be useful.

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Originally Posted by Nihil

If you don't have Chain Lightnings (incidentally, a sorcery), then all the more reason for running a Sacearuse-style build, with 12-15 free cyclers (Street Wraith, Baubles, Stars).

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I am not really interested in totally redesigning my deck.....

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Originally Posted by Cathal83

I am not really interested in totally redesigning my deck.....

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Then don't bother placing your list here and asking for people's oppinion about how to build or deck, if Vortex belongs there or not....just do whatever you want......

I learned a few lessons when we played these versions of the deck, the artifact oriented ones, back in '05.... I mostly tend to stay away from them because it makes a lot of cards situational.

-Ankh is great when you have it down Turn 1/2 (which leads to...)

-Mox is good if you're running ankh and shrap blast...(which leads to..)

-Shrap being good if you have a high enough artifact count, which requires scroll/great furnace/random artifact_01.... This may be alleviated by Chromatic Star though. I don't really count baubles here as I can't think of how many times I'm going to use them for shrap fodder as opposed to using them a.s.a.p for slow-tripping.

-Great Furnace and an already low land count (especially with mox) means that you probably aren't running fireblast.. This is bad because now instead of costing 2 perms, your finisher is costing :1::r: ontop of an artifact.

-Scroll makes good fodder for Shrap blast that isn't dead on it's own, but i'd steer clear of top. Without the Scry effect off Jet, if you choose not to run it, you'll lack enough shuffle effects to really abuse it. This will make it a mana-sink filter that you'd rather have being mana-sink damage or almost anything else.

These are only a few things that I can think of off the top of my head. When I can I'll get in touch with a few of the old teammembers from albany that played GAS/Burn/Slig/Sligh/TTD on a regular basis and see if they have anything else to add.

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Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup

You make good points, but I don't feel comfortable running Needle Drop myself. One, it is a horrible top deck after you played out your hand. Two, one mana one dmg no matter how you cut it is slow. Mogg at least can remove bridges. Maybe if you had four lands out it would be great because you could use that card you drew that turn. However, turns 2-3 it just ties up your mana.

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Indeed, although played in the mogg slot for metagame purposes (I face practically no bridge combo), that is a cantrip, so could be run in some of the baubles' spot. Sure, it is not a great card; but it is not supposed to be! It is a "transparent" ("ghost") card, a "non-card". If there was a 0-casting cost instant which reads "draw a card", I would play that. I think the way to go to abuse burn is to build a deck as close as possible to a 40-card deck. In a 40-card deck the threat density of our presently available quality burn spells can be competitive. In a 60-card deck it is not.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Then don't bother placing your list here and asking for people's oppinion about how to build or deck, if Vortex belongs there or not....just do whatever you want......

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I wanted help with the deck design... I just didn't want to totally revamp the entire deck list... I have already invested much into the deck list, and I am not really interested in having to totally start from scratch. especially since I am on a budget. If you can understand where I am coming from?

Oh and I have decided to take the 4 Keldon Marauders out, in favor of another Fork, another Flames of the Blood Hand, and 2 Sulfuric Vortexes.

P.S. sorry, forgot this had an edit button, so used to myspazz which doesn't have edit buttons....

ive been testing the bauble lists... and i really hate them.

feels a lot slower.

the only thing im going to change, is out fanatic, and replace with waith

Please use your shift key to make your posts easier to read.

Verbal Warning

-PR

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Originally Posted by Cathal83

I wanted help with the deck design... I just didn't want to totally revamp the entire deck list... I have already invested much into the deck list, and I am not really interested in having to totally start from scratch. especially since I am on a budget. If you can understand where I am coming from?

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I understand your point. There's a thread in the Format Discussion Forum that talks about budget decks and how expensive hobby Magic is.
Unfortunaly, there's no way you can spend almost no money and make a competitive deck. You do have to invest a little, I mean, REALLY invest. As Peter Rotten said: You can build a Red Death without Sinkhole, but isn't the deck just better with them? Or you can put Werebear in Threshold, but isn't just better with Tarmogoyf? Sooner or later, you will find yourself tired of been behind other magic players and will embrace the format. Unless you play just for fun.

Anyway, Sacearuse's version of the deck with baubles and wraiths is really cheap, while is a goddamn solid list. I've been testing that and I like it a LOT. You should consider it.:smile:

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I understand your point. There's a thread in the Format Discussion Forum that talks about budget decks and how expensive hobby Magic is.
Unfortunaly, there's no way you can spend almost no money and make a competitive deck. You do have to invest a little, I mean, REALLY invest. As Peter Rotten said: You can build a Red Death without Sinkhole, but isn't the deck just better with them? Or you can put Werebear in Threshold, but isn't just better with Tarmogoyf? Sooner or later, you will find yourself tired of been behind other magic players and will embrace the format. Unless you play just for fun.

Anyway, Sacearuse's version of the deck with baubles and wraiths is really cheap, while is a goddamn solid list. I've been testing that and I like it a LOT. You should consider it.:smile:

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I am definitely considering making the investment to purchase the Chain Lightnings. However it is going to have to wait until February, as that is when my birthday comes around. I will at that time be getting a birthday check, and hopefully it will be enough to purchase 4 Chain Lightnings. If it is, then I will make said purchase at that time.

As for Sacearuse's version of the deck, I am really unfamiliar with this. However I was really under the impression that a good burn deck really wants to optimize the amount of burn it has in it. Relying on cards that don't burn to allow you to draw into more burn, lands, or more card drawing stuff, when you could instead be drawing either lands or burn only, seems a bit questionable to me.

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Originally Posted by burkey_boy

ive been testing the bauble lists... and i really hate them.

feels a lot slower.

the only thing im going to change, is out fanatic, and replace with waith

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So on the Bauble lists, DON'T PLAY them, they suck. I played in a local legacy event thi last weekend and went 0-4. I played Nightmare rd. 1 and he was not happy to be playing against burn. The on turn 2, with NO cards in his grave yard he droped a 4/5 Tarmogoyf!! Did it again game 2, was no fun. The list is a lot slower than a reg burn list, running 4-8 baubles is fine, you really don't need any more than that. I have a new list I am testing this week, I will post the results after the event.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I understand your point. There's a thread in the Format Discussion Forum that talks about budget decks and how expensive hobby Magic is.
Unfortunaly, there's no way you can spend almost no money and make a competitive deck. You do have to invest a little, I mean, REALLY invest. As Peter Rotten said: You can build a Red Death without Sinkhole, but isn't the deck just better with them? Or you can put Werebear in Threshold, but isn't just better with Tarmogoyf? Sooner or later, you will find yourself tired of been behind other magic players and will embrace the format. Unless you play just for fun.

Anyway, Sacearuse's version of the deck with baubles and wraiths is really cheap, while is a goddamn solid list. I've been testing that and I like it a LOT. You should consider it.:smile:

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Yeah and seriously Burn is one of the cheapest decks to build ever. If you can swing the 70$ or so max to build a competitive burn deck you can't play Legacy or for that matter any serious Magic.

Also its not really that hard to trade into getting the cards you need for the deck.

I traded a garruk for italian chain lightnings because he is hard to get at my store and most players that play type 2 don't like their old cards.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Yeah and seriously Burn is one of the cheapest decks to build ever. If you can swing the 70$ or so max to build a competitive burn deck you can't play Legacy or for that matter any serious Magic.

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Look, I can probably afford the cards, just not this month. It is as simple as priorities. And you are right, it would be 70 dollars to purchase all the cards I still need (assuming I can get some of those cards in trade like I plan to, instead of having to purchase them... shouldn't be to much of a problem...).

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Originally Posted by suprafan386

Also its not really that hard to trade into getting the cards you need for the deck.

I traded a garruk for italian chain lightnings because he is hard to get at my store and most players that play type 2 don't like their old cards.

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LOL, if I had a garruk, I would do that in a heartbeat... unfortunately I don't have a Garruk... best I have is a single thoughtseize. And that is going to someone else at the moment (unless I can convince him to take a different card instead).

P.S. Doh, I did it again... I hate getting used to one forum and then switching to another...

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Yeah and seriously Burn is one of the cheapest decks to build ever. If you can swing the 70$ or so max to build a competitive burn deck you can't play Legacy or for that matter any serious Magic.

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The nice thing about magic is that you can look at it as somewhat of an investment, which always takes the sting out of a big pricetag. As soon as you decide you don't want the cards anymore, you can fairly easily turn them around and at least get some money back.

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Originally Posted by Cathal83

LOL, if I had a garruk, I would do that in a heartbeat... unfortunately I don't have a Garruk... best I have is a single thoughtseize. And that is going to someone else at the moment (unless I can convince him to take a different card instead).

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Well I wasn't able to get him to take anything but the Thoughtseize... so I am down one thoughtseize....