Miracle Control

I'll try just about everything.

Mastery is UNDERRATED. Considering going up to 4 even. It is broken any stage of the game.

Probably right on everything else. Tweaking now!

(also, I tried wastes... bad idea)

EDIT:



// Lands
10 [DPA] Island (3)
2 [ZEN] Plains (3)
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Tundra
4 [JGC] Flooded Strand

// Spells
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [6E] Counterspell
1 [AVR] Terminus
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [M10] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AVR] Temporal Mastery
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
2 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LG] Moat
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [HOP] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 [AVR] Terminus


I might try a fatty to side in. I've seen people board in echoing truth to deal with angels interesting enough. Might go up on the number of main board terminus, and remove some swords for it. (Swords has the advantage of being friends with top though)

It could be.

I mean, I can see your point of view, but I think you're mis-judging it. It is quite random, it will be an Explore most of the time. The only positive situation I envision with this is getting extra walker activations, but I'm not sold on it.

Still, I could be wrong...

I wish I'm not though, anything which could remotely lead to Brainstorm's legality in the format is not my friend...

(Please don't take me wrong, I'm not saying Brainstorm will get banned, nor I'm saying T. Mastery will get banned/is disgustingly broken).

You're actually testing the card (albeit on MWS; but still...), while I'm just theorycrafting, so your feedback will be really appreciated...

I mean, even as an explore (that also untapped all your lands, don't forget), it's still really strong. Ramping in blue? Yes please. That's the WORSE case senario. Later and later, you get to cast it, spend a turn dropping everything without needing to keep any mana open, untap, and keep going. The only games I've lost when I resolved TM in was against counter-burn, and I'm unsure what I should do in that MU anyways. (maybe the leylines will come back....)

Shouldn't you be winning vs. Counterburn?

I mean, Countertop locks out their whole deck.

I could see you loosing to a faste delver start + counterspells, but still, swords should solve this.

You can fetch basics to mitigate Price of Progress too.

ya, both times he had explosive starts- triple bolts + snapcaster + the 5 damage for 1 burn. Other time was explorer explorer grim bolt opener. I simply died before I could get things out. Might have been simply unlucky draws for me + luck for him. More testing required clearly.

@syaoran

Hooray for your U/W build, and your list seems good. I've been setting up something similar. Here are some thoughts and personal preferences:

Lands
21 or 22 total, with at least 8 fetch lands. I understand your intent to make Shackles stronger though.

Ponder
This is also what I had in mind to increase our draw control package. Not that convinced, but will try it out. Let us know how it goes for you.

Entreat the Angels
I tested 2, will try out 3. It's been performing well so far.

Temporal Mastery
May it be over or underrated, but the question is whether it has synergy and will help us on our game plan. So far its biggest downside is that it's not 2cc. You only have 7 2cc cards (actually 6 since one Counterbalance will hit the table).


Here's my list for testing:

8 Islands
2 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

1 Terminus
3 Entreat the Angels

4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant


EDIT: Removed the Ponder for a 4th Snapcaster Mage. It can bring back Brainstorm after all, which is the key synergy for miracle cards.

actually, ya, snap>ponder is a good call.

I dislike having more than 2 entreats, since you only want to see one in a game. Maybe two in a long game, but it's a finisher card- Imagine if you open your hand and see two. (owe- I've opened with two temporals, and just brainstormed them for a double early explore. It wasn't the best use, but they didn't rot)

I've never regretted the number of lands I run.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Syaoran

ya, both times he had explosive starts- triple bolts + snapcaster + the 5 damage for 1 burn. Other time was explorer explorer grim bolt opener. I simply died before I could get things out. Might have been simply unlucky draws for me + luck for him. More testing required clearly.

---

From my experience it's a rough MU, despite having access to CB-top. They just deal tons of damage before we assemble the soft-lock, and even then we need a clear board to really have control of the game. Also, sulfuric vortex is a bitch (I'm not sure whether to side in the disenchants or not though, opinions?).

Your dying because your list runs too many slow cards. Spell Pierce is an essential card in this format. As is playing 5-6 early spot removal spells. Hydroblast is the best answer to Sulfuric Vortex against RUG, in combination with Spell Pierce, they shouldn't be able to land it.

Yeah I agree, I now play 4 pierce and 4 StP 4 snapcaster 3 path in my 75. It's still not a cake walk, but it's definitely winnable. Hydroblast is an interesting idea but I'm not sure I like it, it seems a bit narrow.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=60143

Decklist for this deck on TC

Nice result for the deck (again only one card shy of the Superfriends type). Kind of hard to follow though given that the cc counts seem off for a usual counterbalance deck.

The one card that caught my interest is Noxious Revival. Great synergy with the miracle mechanic, and kinda works like a Snapcaster Mage too. I'd like to try it out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yutang

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=60143

Decklist for this deck on TC

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I've been playing around with CT/Miracle/Superfriends lists - it's nice seeing a few do okay (the CT Thopters thread had a similar list posted with 3x Cunning Wish and a black splash).

It feels really, really powerful to have the potential for absolute control of the stack and the board (at instant speed) when you're floating Terminus with CB/Top in play. But even ideal case aside, it's amazing. Terminus makes up for losing out on the board while establishing the soft lock big time, and means that having a bad CB curve at 3+ doesn't hurt much. Against any deck with creatures, it's at least 1-for-1, ignoring hexproof, with no downside like StP/PtE, OR you're winning and happy to have it in hand with so many ways to use it later. There aren't many miracles, in many situations, which I would rather have in my opening hand than not

Having no real clock and loong games is not very fun or good, though. I've been trying Punishing Fire as another form of inevitability (and removal) and have been fairly pleased. At 3 Grove/2PF, it's not too hard to find and doesn't disrupt the deck too much, and they're both fine if they show up alone:

Lands (22, w/ 18 getting U)
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic
3 Grove
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
5 Island
1 Plains

WinCons (8)
3 JTMS
1 Elspeth, KE
3 SCM
1 Entreat the Angels

Card Selection (9)
4 SDT
4 Brainstorm
1 Noxious Revival

Stack Control (12)
4 Counterbalance
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

Board Control (9)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
2 Punishing Fire

Curve is 16 (1), 11 (2), 1 (3), 4 (4), 3 (5), 3 (6)

Board unbuilt (Likely: 4th Terminus, 3rd fire, 1-2 E Tutor for when I really want CB/Top or a couple silver bullets, Pyroblasts, potentially small SFM package).
I'd like to be playing 2 Plains, would potentially like some number of Ponder, and go back and forth on forcing the 3cc slot or just using 4+3+3 (swords, scm, terminus) removal slots plus counters to address those things.

Thoughts?

What do you think about this list? Top 4 in a 85 people tournament in Madrid (Spain) ??

2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace the Mindsculptor
1 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Plains
5 Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

SB:

2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Terminus
1 Path to Exile
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Rest for the Weary
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Noxious Revival

Only 1 three drop is pretty meager. Maybe Thirst for Knowledge for added CA (discard 1 or 2 punishing fires ftw!), Trinket Mage (top, EE, Needle? Meekstone?etc), or O-ring.

I've never been happy with only two 3cc spells in my CBtop lists.

@anwei

Terminate? You mean Terminus?

As to the no clock and long games, well I think that's pretty much expected for a control deck. There are times though when you get to set up quite early, and when the Superfriends go online (or now with Entreat the Angels), you get a clock, and doesn't take too long from there.

@plimplam

Wasteland is a card of interest, but I'm wondering if it does the deck any good.



Avacyn Restored

So far, from the winning lists, I noticed the combination of 3-Terminus / 1-Entreat as common. They seem to work well, and we probably have the best engine that can accommodate and utilize these 2 cards' power. I want to see Entreat the Angels more often, so I prefer 2-3.

Superfriends?

Miracle-based lists seem to use only Jace as their walker, which is understandable as he does have the free brainstorm ability granting unlimited setup access to miracle cards. For those who believes in Superfriends mode as a strong win condition, I think Elspeth is still reliable, especially for lists without Lingering Souls.

@anwei

I'm not a fan of the singleton Noxious Revival - it seems too 'cute' for this deck.

I'm not convinced by the Punishing Fires 'tech' as I don't see the benefits of it in this deck. This deck is already fairly slow, another slow wincon compared to say, Entreat doesn't help. Furthermore, it strains the manabase by adding colourless lands. For board control, Terminus is a lot better.

Your curve is okay, but I would want more in the 3cc slot.

@plimplam

Interesting list. The Cunning Wish angle has never really been explored in this deck but...is it necessary? Its good that it adds to the 3 drops slot.

A problem with that deck seems to be the number of 2cc cards. 8 seems insufficient, I would want at least 10. I would cut the Ponder and a Cunning Wish probably for an extra Snapcaster and Counterspell.

Also the black splash seems to just be for sideboard cards - is this needed?

@Koby

Agree that we want more 3cc slots. These can be Vindicates, Oblivion Rings, Shackles, Wish or Entreat - these are more solid choices than Trinket Mage or Thirst for Knowledge. Thirst for Knowledge requires running more artifacts and artifact lands. Trinket Mage is too slow for this deck.

@sarapfish

Entreat the Angels is an awesome wincon. It gives us a very quick clock, protects Jace, is a reasonable cost, is 3cc for Countertop and allows us to stabilise and win in one card (sound familiar? see Jace).

I agree with you on Wasteland. At times we may want it when we face problematic lands but more often than not we want to make our land drops.

I also agree on the 3-2 split of Terminus and Entreat the Angels. This feels right for this deck.

As for Elspeth, it is my opinion that she is not relevant in today's metagame of Delvers, Lingering Souls, Sulfur Elementals and Dread of Nights. 3x Jace with Entreat the Angels is a much better wincondition combination.

Here is my current list for reference:

1cc (15)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce

2cc (11)
4 Counterbalance
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Counterspell

3cc (2)
2 Entreat the Angels

4cc (3)
Jace, the Mind Sculptor

5cc (4)
4 Force of Will

6cc (3)
3 Terminus

22 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Kor Haven
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:

undecided but some combination of:

Terminus
Path to Exile
Surgical Extraction
Grafdiggers Cage
Hydroblast
Phyrexian Metamorph
Tormod's Crypt
Disenchant
Etutor

Whats a good sideboard build that covers my maindeck's shortcomings? Also I'm worried about the low 3cc slots. I also miss the loss of black which means losing Vindicate, Lingering Souls and the black board - Engineered Plague and Perish and Darkblast were awesome.

@yutang

Nice list, but for preferences I would go:

+ 1 Snapcaster Mage
- 1 Counterspell**
+ 1 Path to Exile (or Dismember / Oblivion Ring to add to the 3cc count)
- 1 Spell Pierce**

**unless you're really preparing for something that you needed the heavy counter-magic count..just noticed your counter package is 11+4 counterbalance

@yutang

I have almost the same deck.
I love the stable mana base of this deck !!!

1cc (14)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder

2cc (12)
4 Counterbalance
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Counterspell

3cc (2)
2 Entreat the Angels

4cc (3)
Jace, the Mind Sculptor

5cc (4)
4 Force of Will

6cc (3)
2 Terminus

23 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
2 Glacial Fortress ------ ( tech vs choke )
2 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Delta
1 Marsh Flats

Sideboard:
2 terminus
2 Devastation Tide
3 Spell Pierce
2 Relic
2 Surgical
3 Hydroblast ( meta call )
1 Disenchant

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yutang

@anwei

I'm not a fan of the singleton Noxious Revival - it seems too 'cute' for this deck.

I'm not convinced by the Punishing Fires 'tech' as I don't see the benefits of it in this deck. This deck is already fairly slow, another slow wincon compared to say, Entreat doesn't help. Furthermore, it strains the manabase by adding colourless lands. For board control, Terminus is a lot better.

Your curve is okay, but I would want more in the 3cc slot.

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If you haven't tested Noxious Revival, you really ought to try it. 2-for-1'ing yourself and paying 2 life to ensure you draw an StP or land or whatever is not very good (nor is timewalking your opponent into a land, mid/late-game) but is at least something on its own. With a Top in play, the ability to recover anything in your 'yard for 0 mana is pretty good. With CB in play, the ability to counter most things for 0 mana with or without top is pretty good. With Terminus in the yard, the ability to Miracle at will is really good.
That's enough versatility that it's quite beyond cute - despite card disadvantage, it can play the role of SCM when you need it, of SDT with CB out, and sure-thing your Terminus/Entreat.

Punishing Fire does for creatures what CB/Top does for spells - it's a 2-card midgame combo that takes over a large slice of the "size" pie while generating CA. It also happens to give you something better to do with turns than wait for JTMS/Entreat if you have control of the game. Evaluating the deck's ability to not lose when you don't have a counterbalance soft lock is crucial, and it gives you something to do other than dig for one-shot removal every time they play a creature. That part is key. You obviously aren't beating their guys with your guys, so you have to have something to do with their guys when they keep coming. You have inevitability in the long game with CB lock established and a Jace-enabled hand of blue cards, but if you Swords once or twice and then hit terminus and wipe they're board, they can turn things around with their next topdeck and you can draw nothing for miles.
It also has a comparatively small investment - with 18 blue / 12 white lands, playing 3 colorless is not quite "straining" the manabase.

That said, I am just testing it as I'd really like to be able to actually win if Jace gets Surgical Extractioned, and the options are pretty few (I guess I could always Noxious Revival Jace in response :wink:). I expect that I'll eventually go back to Shackles instead, for CMC=3 and (far more importantly) the ability to deal with creatures that trickle through early removal in the mid-game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

Only 1 three drop is pretty meager. Maybe Thirst for Knowledge for added CA (discard 1 or 2 punishing fires ftw!), Trinket Mage (top, EE, Needle? Meekstone?etc), or O-ring.

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On CMC3: The matches where you really want these, it's usually for a combo piece (e.g., Show and Tell), not dudes (Knight of the Reliquary). If you have an active Counter-Top and get all their small guys, counterspells and removal gets the big ones fine. Terminus + Snapcaster Mage cover a lot of the ground that older curves covered. When you really do want them, getting SDT, CB, and one of 3-5 3-drops is not so simple, and not (I think) definitely not worth jamming suboptimal cards into the deck for their CC. Basically, if you can play Counterbalance as a one-sided Challice on 1 and 2, and you can stabilize, you're in a pretty darn good spot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yutang

Whats a good sideboard build that covers my maindeck's shortcomings? Also I'm worried about the low 3cc slots. I also miss the loss of black which means losing Vindicate, Lingering Souls and the black board - Engineered Plague and Perish and Darkblast were awesome.

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With this many maindeck answers and no creatures worth removing, I'm really considering starting with 3 SFM, 1 Batterskull, 2 Vendilion Clique. The clock/disruption/CMC3 is a big deal against combo, and they're obviously at their best with no opposing removal (it's too bad Artifact/Enchantment hate will in already).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anwei

Punishing Fire does for creatures what CB/Top does for spells - it's a 2-card midgame combo that takes over a large slice of the "size" pie while generating CA. It also happens to give you something better to do with turns than wait for JTMS/Entreat if you have control of the game. Evaluating the deck's ability to not lose when you don't have a counterbalance soft lock is crucial, and it gives you something to do other than dig for one-shot removal every time they play a creature. That part is key. You obviously aren't beating their guys with your guys, so you have to have something to do with their guys when they keep coming. You have inevitability in the long game with CB lock established and a Jace-enabled hand of blue cards, but if you Swords once or twice and then hit terminus and wipe they're board, they can turn things around with their next topdeck and you can draw nothing for miles.

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Is the answer to this problem more creature removal or more card advantage? I tested yutang's list a bit and the problemI can see is with density. When you draw the right things deck is very powerful. But sometimes you just keep drawing land, tops and counterspells which does very little against the coming onslaught.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

Is the answer to this problem more creature removal or more card advantage? I tested yutang's list a bit and the problemI can see is with density. When you draw the right things deck is very powerful. But sometimes you just keep drawing land, tops and counterspells which does very little against the coming onslaught.

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I don't think it's the card advantage( we have counter balance and snap caster as card advantage ) the problem but the card selection (top helps but sometimes it's not enough ). That's why I play 2 ponders and thinking of upping them to 4...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

Is the answer to this problem more creature removal or more card advantage? I tested yutang's list a bit and the problemI can see is with density. When you draw the right things deck is very powerful. But sometimes you just keep drawing land, tops and counterspells which does very little against the coming onslaught.

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Removal density and card advantage are both doing the same thing if the latter means you're drawing more cards, and thus more removal.

My two cents of thinking about removal and why I like Shackles or P Fire:
You can't beat their guys with guys and you don't win until late game, so you have to deal with the board, a lot - you need "ongoing" removal. Terminus is really powerful and nearly always good in fair matches, but I find myself often dying to the board while digging for removal or SCM->StP and CB/Top doesn't make it into the picture. These lists are playing toward a powerful mid-game plan which doesn't affect the board as its being assembled, sometimes takes a bit, can be fragile, and still leaves you plenty of opportunity to die with it assembled, especially with the number of threats off the CB curve (especially GSZ, Nic Fit's whole team).

Terminus changes the way other removal works because it works early/cheap and wipes the board - usually you have to pick between fast removal, mass removal, and ongoing removal. Moat/Bridge try to cheat by being Mass/Ongoing, but have real restrictions, are expensive, and are somewhat fragile. Terminus really cheats by being fast/mass, so that if you decide to cover all 3 bases (as I think you should), having an ongoing means of dealing with guys who don't get wiped is crucial. Playing tons of removal spells can simulate this, but makes your deck suck.
So in this deck, with 7-8 1 mana removal spells and 3-4 maindeck board wipes, those parts of the removal suite are so well covered that you can play the best ongoing option (which usually means slow and spot) without suffering from the drawbacks. I think Shackles and P Fire are best positioned for this. Both can also let you win the game, if it comes to that.

Yes, the problem is you are not drawing enough cards in these builds. Divining Top isn't gaining you any card advantage and when your top 3 shows junk you get stuck with them turn after turn. I agree that this deck needs some number of ponders or maybe even Fact or Fictions (just throwing it out there). But playing the deck I often wished that I had some ways of actually drawing cards instead of rearranging them.

On additional card draw, there used to be Predict -- potential draw 2, and/or refresh your cards to see with Sensei's Divining Top. This is how it was then, and if I would have to allocate 1-2 slots, I'd give it to Predict. I needed those slots to accommodate 4 Snapcaster Mages though.

In defense of the infamous artifact, Sensei's Divining Top DOES give card advantage through draw manipulation, and potentially useful in times of emergency when you need one of those 3 cards on top of your library ASAP (it's a card draw right?). If you are able to preserve your fetch lands well enough, your digging powers grow. It's also a miracle trigger during the opponent's turn.

Personally, drawing cards isn't that much of a problem. Sensei's Divining Top + fetch lands, Brainstorms, and Jace the Mind Sculptor...it seems solid already. Then if you really need more Brainstorms then use a Snapcaster Mage to reuse one.

Woah, I'm gone for a while and come back to alot of action going on.

I agree with alot of the stuff going on here. Terminus looks fantastic, definitely the removal spell this deck has been waiting for. 3 sounds perfect.

I agree that with Lingering Souls and now Entreat the Angels, Elspeth/Sorin seem a bit too slow to be worthwhile anymore. The deck loses its "Superfriends" tag, but it does not lose its original concept in the slightest, which was a U/W Control deck utilizing Counterbalance.

I guess the question is... how many Souls/Entreats?

I'll do some playtesting and tuning when I get a chance and get back to you guys. I'm glad that people are interested in this deck once again.

Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells
2 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Terminus
3 Entreat the Angels

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Karakas
3 Tundra
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Plains
4 Island


SB:
2 Counterbalance
1 Terminus
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Purify the Grave
2 Hydroblast
2 Path to Exile
3 Disenchant


This is what i've been playing the last weeks. 2nd out of 68 last week with 6-1 (loss first round against Maverick due to flooding), today 5-0-1 1st/42.

Feel free to ask/comment about choices and stuff ;)

Ah, that is a great list - honestly. Id play it with one single-card difference: -1 Spell Pierce + 1 Counterbalance!

I keep calling this deck "Terminator", how about a new name adoption?

At a second glance the 2 Vendilion Cliques look kind of strange. You will never be able to use them for an offensive attack, as the removal of the opponent will be there for sure (atleast G1). I might be tempted to add a 4th Jace for the following reasons: SneakAttack is becoming a more and more frequently seen spell (CB=4) and I like to have a Jace in peto, so yeah maybe -2 Clique + 1 Jace +1 Vedalcken Shackles?

What do you think?

Shawn French is at 4-1 at SCG Orlando with a list very much like Kotter's Caw list with the ability to board into CB-Top. Deck tech and list are here: http://goo.gl/tF6L1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anwei

Shawn French is at 4-1 at SCG Orlando with a list very much like Kotter's Caw list with the ability to board into CB-Top. Deck tech and list are here: http://goo.gl/tF6L1

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He just went into the last round @ 18 points and got the pair up so looks like he's going to draw into top 8. Should be interesting.

Okay long post today.

Re Bazaar of Moxen list

First of all, we have the following Top8 list from Bazaar of Moxen (large event in Europe).

3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Terminus
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
1 Batterskull

1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
5 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
1 Plains
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Disenchant
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Flusterstorm
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Path to Exile
1 Terminus
1 Counterbalance

Looking at the deck, it raises some new issues:
3 Stoneforge, 1 Batterskull, 1 Jitte package – is this too mana intensive for this deck? I know it has been tried before but I thought it was abandoned as it was too clunky to form two combos in the deck. Also, it appears that Entreat/Jace seem like better wincons.

1 Crucible of Worlds, 3 Wasteland – Is the wastelock appropriate for this deck? We seem to want to make land drops and not lose them….and in the late game, more lands = more power Entreats.

3 Counterbalance in the main, 1 in the side – Counterbalance shines in some matchups but is bad in others. Is it time to start relegating it to the sideboard just like the SCG list, go for a 3-1 split or keep maindecking 4? I'm in favour of a 3-1 split as I don't want to see more than 1 Counterbalance in a G1 again. However, 4 is working for me right now.

2 Timely Reinforcements in the side – Used as a Lingering Souls substitute in UW lists?

The "threat density" problem

Card draw would be great for this deck but 1) it is not necessary and 2) we do not have the slots to find pure card draw cards.

The card draw cards are: Predict, Ancestral Vision, Standstill and Fact or Fiction. Vision is bad with Countertop, Standstill doesn't work with Countertop and I would rather have Jace over FoF as he also serves as a wincon. Predict is the only useable choice; however, Snapcaster + Brainstorm are perfectly fine at the moment.

How many Entreats/Souls?

Hanni, I believe we can now cut the black splash (which was mostly splashed for Lingering Souls anyway) as Entreat the Angels obsoletes Souls. Entreat works like Jace – it serves as both a stabilising tool AND a win-con in one card.

With Entreat, we want to see this card towards the mid-game/end-game and not in our opening hand or first few cards. 4 is obviously incorrect. 3 is a bit clunky as it appears in your starting hand and first few cards more often than not. 1 is too few as I want to see it in almost every game. I feel that 2 is the right number.

BlackStarDeceiver's list

Congratulations on your two finishes! Obviously your results speak a lot for themselves with regards to your deck.

I agree with Philipp on the 2 Vendilion Cliques in your deck. It does not appear to fit as we are rarely aggressive with our attacks (unless swinging for the win with Entreat). I would probably cut them for +1 Counterspell, +1 Counterbalance or even +2 Oblivion Ring.

I also have some questions for you:

(1) 2-2 split of Counterbalance – why?
(2) 8 2cc cards for Counterbalance curve – how was this?
(3) Have you missed having more than 2 Counterspells? Did you cut them because they were too clunky?
(4) 3 Glacial Fortresses and 2 Karakas – how did this go?
(5) Number of Entreat the Angels being 3 – how was this?
(6) Your sideboard – 3 Disenchants – was this overkill? 2 Hydroblast – I understand our weakness to Goblins, was this why this was in? 3-2 split of graveyard hate – how was Purify the Grave vs Tormods?

Could you provide us with some data on which are the good and bad matchups for this deck?

It appears that Sneak and Show is a bad matchup, as Philipp noted. Spell Pierce maindeck helps though.

Name

I think UW Countertop Walker is a fine name =)

Other issues to raise

With Terminus now in the deck – how would Mishra's Factory go?

My current list (for reference)

1cc (14)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce

2cc (12)
4 Counterbalance
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Counterspell

3cc (2)
2 Entreat the Angels

4cc (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

5cc (4)
4 Force of Will

6cc (3)
3 Terminus

22 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Kor Haven
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
1 Terminus
2 Flusterstorm
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Hydroblast
2 Disenchant
2 Unknown slots

4 Counterspells seem too much, the deck needs more cards which actually do something. The list from BOM has the SFM package which does something instead of sitting in your hand or constantly getting rearranged under a top. I'm not saying it's the best addition, still it's something. Tried more Cliques instead of the SFM package (reducing the number of counterspells) but they were also lackluster. I can understand the historic Tarmogyf Counter-Top lists where you just need a body on the board or something to make a presence.

I think Shawn from the SCG open got it right with the SB counterbalance. They're too narrow for the md. I also think md cliques are pointless why give people stuff to point they're removal at?

Other than that, his list is pretty solid, I'd probably play less ponders and slightly more land (wastes) and engineered explosives just for some sweeping variety.

Here's the list I'm going to playtest with when I get the time to do so:

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
7 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Creatures
4 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
2 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [AVR] Terminus

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [TE] Disenchant
SB: 2 [LG] Moat
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction

I like the direction in which this is going. I personally wouldn't play less than 3 CB MD, we want one up asap and they are the biggest counter-magnet vs decks like RUG tempo so the 2nd and possibly 3rd ones are often useful. Considering that's the most played archetype atm, I'd rather have them MD and board them out in MU where they're not so good.
At the moment I play 1 e tutor 1 EE 1 oblivion ring in the MD. I quite like this package, it's pretty flexible, it gives us virtually 2 more 3cc for CB, and e tutor is also useful to grab silver bullets post-SB.

@Hanni in which MU do you board moat and needle in? Happy with those?

The list I posted is just a starting point for my own testing purposes. I'm actually going to cut a Snapcatser for a 3rd Jace, after some thought.

As far as Moat, I figured since Angels fly, the Moat's could come in against aggro heavy matches like Goblins or whatever.

Needle is just a generally useful card that I've always like having access to in the sideboard of this deck.

Whether Moat or Needle is actually needed, I don't know. I haven't played in a while so it's possible that neither one is necessary in the current metagame.

another question is if a enlightened tutor SB might be even better, especially with top and cb, you could easily add tormod's crypt, oblivion ring, moat, pitting needle, warmth, serenity, CB, grafdiggers cage....

I play 1 e tutor main and 1 in the board, along with 1 cursed totem (maverick), 1 ensnaring bridge (sneak show, reanimator), 1 cage (reanimator, dredge), 1 aura of silence (stax, affinity, enchantress, mirror & stone blade without e tutor). I keep bringing warmth / cop red in and taking it out, I'm unsure about this slot. If I were to play moat it would probably be MD, it's a decent card but there just aren't that many decks anymore vs which it's completely gamebreaking. Needle is interesting, but I'm always scared about adding a card to the board "just because". I fear I would only bring it in in very specific MU (sneak show, painter, ... that's about it? cursed totem is superior vs mav).

Playing E Tutor for when you really want Counter-Top is probably okay, but I wouldn't go crazy with the package.
E Tutor packages are good when you need access to an assortment of powerful cards in a large number of matches and you intend to function "like normal" with the small tweaks. Maverick keeps most their dudes and can afford the package for matchups like Storm.

This deck already has great answers to many of the bullet-able matchups, like Counterbalance for Burn, gobs of removal for Maverick. Moreover, there are a lot of cards that often come out - removal, counterbalance, fow. If you're playing (say) High Tide, pull StP and Terminus and go to your sideboard to find... Cop:Red and Totem, that's awkward.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yutang

BlackStarDeceiver's list

Congratulations on your two finishes! Obviously your results speak a lot for themselves with regards to your deck.

I agree with Philipp on the 2 Vendilion Cliques in your deck. It does not appear to fit as we are rarely aggressive with our attacks (unless swinging for the win with Entreat). I would probably cut them for +1 Counterspell, +1 Counterbalance or even +2 Oblivion Ring.

I also have some questions for you:

(1) 2-2 split of Counterbalance – why?
(2) 8 2cc cards for Counterbalance curve – how was this?
(3) Have you missed having more than 2 Counterspells? Did you cut them because they were too clunky?
(4) 3 Glacial Fortresses and 2 Karakas – how did this go?
(5) Number of Entreat the Angels being 3 – how was this?
(6) Your sideboard – 3 Disenchants – was this overkill? 2 Hydroblast – I understand our weakness to Goblins, was this why this was in? 3-2 split of graveyard hate – how was Purify the Grave vs Tormods?

Could you provide us with some data on which are the good and bad matchups for this deck?

It appears that Sneak and Show is a bad matchup, as Philipp noted. Spell Pierce maindeck helps though.

Name

I think UW Countertop Walker is a fine name =)

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@Vendilion Clique:

You don't have to be aggresive with Clique. I've won several games just by Karakas Clique Chumpblocking/Jacesealing.

Nic Fit s heavily played, Clique is boss against them.

1) I didn't think much about the split, it simply felt good from testing. 2 main because i like them more than 1 Oring and the 3rd Counterspell or 2 Ponders (which were always underwhelming in testing with 4 Senseis)

2) As i did not plan Countertop as a main strategy i did not shift the curve towards it.
Counterbalance is okay main deck but needed against Burn/Canadian/UR and is better than i first thought against Dredge.

3) 2nd Karakas to combat Reanimator/Show and Tell Game 1, to have multiple outs against Thalia/Teeg and to get the synergy with Clique active more often.

Fortress could be basics/Wastes/Mishras, but they are awesome against Choke decks.

5) 3 felt right, you can set them up easily and 1 single Angel is pretty good already against Canadian, not to mention that there will ba a counter war every time.

(6) I expected Choke and Sylvan Library, the come in handy against Deed decks to blow up deed eot before dropping Angels. Purify is awesome against reanimator, because the cant get rid of it with discard, while you can play around Daze turn 2.

Hydroblast is simply for Burn/Sneak/UR Delver.

Goblins don't care much about it now with Caverns, as ou lose to the Ringleaders and Matrons, not the rest.


Could you provide us with some data on which are the good and bad matchups for this deck?

I think the bad matchups are Dredge G1, Sneak and Show (due to Griselbrand) and UR Delver. Maverick gets harder after boarding.

Clique is another way to fight Sneak decks though, as is maindecked Pierce as you mentioned.

The sideboard should be adjusted, you just really want 6-7 pieces of Gravehate, Tormods seems pretty good against Canadian though. Being able to reset Mungeese will win games.

Splashing Red might help against Sneak and Show, but i think that Needles or Cursed Totem is much stronger coupled with 2 Karakas main.