About his list, why the two Jace Berelens?
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About his list, why the two Jace Berelens?
Jace wars, and B/x disruption to recoup cards in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiolosse
ONe of the things that is clearly noticeable is the fetch-base between the two: Both are almost equally geared to get the sources, but Jeremy's list has much more focus on two fetches: the Strand and the Tarn, in contrast to Caleb's, which seems to be better geared for variance. Is this a nod to cards like Pithing Needle? And if so, was that at all relevant during the Open?
There is such thing as card availability and overanalysis.....
It's best to split the fetches as much as possible, but probably won't matter much.
I ran a StoneBlade variant of this deck in a local tourney today. The deck went 4-0 then an intential draw in the last round. Opponents were Mono Red Burn, Dredge, Miracles Control, and Goblins. The only game loss was to Burn, otherwise the other 3 matches went 2-0.
Here is the decklist.
4 Brainstorm
1 Back to Basics
2 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
2 Energy Field
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Rest in Peace
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Karakas
1 Mash Flats
3 Plains
2 Scaldinfg Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Windswept Heath
// Sideboard:
1 Hurkyls Recall
3 Glided Drake
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Spell Snare
1 Stifle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Ethersworn Canonist
I like the Rest in Peace combo with StoneBlade because it gives an alternate win condition, but moreover because it creates distractions for your opponent to deal with. (i.e. drawing counterspells, burn, and other removal.)
After playing the above list, I think 3 Tundra is definently too much, 2 seems better, maybe even 1. Also, I had one offs of Geist and Clique, which I think should be dumped in favor of a 4th Stoneforge and 2nd Spell Pierce. I think the 2nd Helm also doesn't belong here and maybe add a 3rd Spell Pierce in its place. I am also thinking Counterbalance could be cut to a tutorable one off and add a third Energy Field. I was wishing for a 4th Swords to Plowshares, so that needs to be in the board. As for the manabase, I think a City of Traitors would have been nice (and/or a second Ancient Tomb) Also, the Karakas probably belongs in the board.
This decklist seems to make every game very different mainly due to the lack of redundency and/or no Ponders (i.e. the deck slots are being filled with the StoneBlade engine). However, the alternate win condition was nice to have.
As for the tourney report, here is a synopsis:
Burn folded to Energy Field / Rest in Peace with Sulfuric Vortex in play. Dredge folded to the same with Batterskull in play. (Obviously Dredge has a real problem against a deck main decking four Rest in Peace.) Miracles Control was an interesting matchup, he wacked my combo pieces with a 2 charge Engineered Explosives, but I pulled of the win with Stoneblade in one game. Second game I pulled off the helm combo. In my Goblins matchup first game I didn't have a RIP or Tutors, but I had an Energy field in my starting hand that I kept. I swords'ed off his first two dudes, then after he built up I was likely going to die the next turn so I laid Energy Field without a RIP in play. I simply waited until I drew a RIP, which was like 4 or 5 turns, then he picked up to the RIP hitting the field. (I was very concerned a Wasteland would win him the game) Second game with Goblins I pulled off the Helm Combo.
Overall, it seems like a very viable deck with the current metagame. I have my doubts about this deck matched up with Show and Tell/Omnicience, anything with Targeted Discard, and Maverick, but I like the odds against RUG Delver and other graveyard dependent decks.
Anyways, thanks for reading.
Person who just posted their decklist: why run gilded drake over oblivion ring in the sideboard? Oblivion ring is tutor able and actually has uses in other matchups that aren't show and tell
True, O-Ring has some obvious advantages. The truth is I didn't put enough thought into my sideboard and some of it was driven by cards at hand. I think I also wanted to get too cute with stealing an Emrakul, Griselbrand, or other monster. Agreed though, O-ring should be at least a two or three of in the board. Maybe one in the main. I did run into an opposing Detention Sphere in one game where my Detention Sphere was not an answer, but the O-Ring would have handed me an earlier win.
Yay for a RIP deck top 8'ing! Too bad it wasn't me: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...W-RIP-Miracles
Hey,
I think this deck is pretty neat. I wish I could splash blue in Quinn. I think it is difficult to defend planeswalkers with this and force+etutor is a lot of card disadvantage so those two are not in here. I was playing around with the list below.
// Lands
1 [MR] Ancient Den
1 [PC2] Plains (5)
1 [IN] Island (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Scrubland
4 [A] Tundra
2 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
// Creatures
1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
// Spells
3 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
3 [US] Energy Field
3 [AL] Helm of Obedience
1 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [M11] Leyline of the Void
4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
1 [10E] Mobilization
3 [JU] Web of Inertia
1 [TE] Humility
2 [WL] Abeyance
2 [DDG] Oblivion Ring
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [M11] Leyline of the Void
NECRO!! So...with Deathrite showing up in mono white decks(this dude is everywhere) and Abrupt Decay hopefully seeing much less play, is this deck viable again? Always wanted to try it but never got around to it back in 2012! Doable without counter/top?
"Ancient thread, lost to the ages...arise and return to the frontmost pages!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmankevinx
I think the Lantern control shell looks promising for this kind of win condition at the moment: Thread. The later pages are starting to develop into something similar, and it shows a lot of promise in my opinion. But, maybe I'm just biased because I really like the idea of that deck.
really nobody is playing this sweet deck anymore?:cry:
or there is another thread I'm not aware of?
I was messing about with an updated version of this in case of RUG and Reanimator returning, doesn't seem half bad.
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
2 Jace The Mindsculptor
1 Energy Field (honestly don't care for it, leaning towards a Path to Exile)
2 Soothsaying
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Rest in Piece
2 Helm of Obediance
22 lands.
Legacy lantern thread....Quote:
Originally Posted by NegatorITA
So I played this list for 5 matches in the practice room (I know it’s no league, but bear with me).
2 Omen of the Sea
2 Court of Grace
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Counterbalance
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Detention Sphere
4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace
4 Force of Will
1 Terminus
2 Arcum's Astrolabe
2 Spell Pierce
// should be Force of Negation but my ManaTraders subscription isn't high enough.
1 Tundra
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Karakas
4 Snow-Covered Island
4 Prismatic Vista
1 Volcanic Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand1 Dovin's Veto
1 Flusterstorm
1 Terminus
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Deafening Silence
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Moat
2 Wear // Tear
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Back to Basics
2 Pyroblast
I simply took my old RIP/Helm list and made a few changes for the current meta and Court of Grace.
My previous list was much more combo oriented, with 3 Impulse, 2 Preordain and 2 Helm to get a quick combo kill.
Here we replaced the Impulse with the Omen of the Sea, and oh boy, I wasn’t ready.
@FTW, at first I didn’t understand why you put 3 Counterbalance main, but being able to flash in Omen makes it very stupid sometimes. Kinda incentivize me to try a more blue focused version of the deck with up to 4 Omen and 3 Counterbalance…
Court of Grace was fine, but I couldn't take true advantage of the Monarchy. Maybe my split was wrong and it should be 2 Helm/1 Court… More testing is needed.
I fell against 12-Post. Lost pitifully. The Match-up is still abysmal.
I will try to test Court of Cunning next time. Maybe in the blue version I mentioned…
Yeah the Counterbalance main works well with Omen of the Sea. Each Omen can set it up twice while fixing your draws. Reeplcheep's also been using that synergy in his Aminatou deck.
You can also do CB tricks with ETutor, since there are relevant targets at all parts of the curve. That play offsets the card disadvantage from ETutor, because you both fix your draw and counter some spell. Even if you're not countering their best spell, you stole a card back while casting a 1-mana tutor.
Sometimes I just jam CB early to draw out answers. Most decks run very few enchantment kill slots in the 75. If they Force or Decay or Wear//Tear Counterbalance, that's fewer answers they have for Rip/Helm and Energy Field. If they let it stick, you have CB active and randomly nullify some of their cards. Either way I'm happy.
In a bind, I can also turn on CB with a 1-of Unexpectedly Absent for X=0. That card has many modes. Sure it's instant speed removal for a problem if they fetch, but it can also tuck your own card (e.g. Omen or Astrolabe) to counter a spell, or it can save a combo piece from removal.
I don't have any ideas for 12Post other than that it's a small part of the meta. Counterbalance seems bad there, but it should be good against the fair blue, aggro and combo decks taking up most of the meta.
I do keep 1-of Web of Inertia in the SB to stop "attacks" triggers, including Annihilator, since they get through Energy Field.
I thought the 2nd Court would be good, but I've only run 1 myself so far. Court of Cunning is at a better part of the curve for CB and synergizes with RiP. Seems good.
Now that Oko is banned, both Scroll Rack and Jace, the Mind Sculptor are again playable as ways to support Counterbalance and draw cards. A CB-heavy list seems possible now.
//Lands: 20
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Karakas
//Spells: 23
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Force of Negation
2 Terminus
//Enchantments: 13
1 On Thin Ice
4 Rest in Peace
3 Energy Field
3 Counterbalance
1 Court of Cunning
1 Detention Sphere
//Artifacts: 4
3 Scroll Rack
1 Helm of Obedience
//Sideboard: 15
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Dovin's Veto
2 Wear // Tear
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Deafening Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Back to Basics
1 Detention Sphere
1 Web of Inertia
1 Helm of Obedience
Counterbalance Curve MD / SB
0: 20 / 1
1: 16 / 5
2: 13 / 2
3: 4 / 6
4: 1 / 1
5: 4
6: 2
Blue: 22 / 6
Might make room for a Jace or 2nd Detention Sphere MD.
Entreat the Angels is a possible SB secondary win condition (that hits 3 on the CB curve) with Scroll Rack to enable the Miracle
Card choice explanations:
Enlightened Tutor - Instant tutor for any piece Rip/Field or Rip/Helm or CB/Rack and many toolbox tools. It's card disadvantage, but the raw power of Energy Field or CB or Helm is enough to make up for it. You are not playing a 1-for-1 parity game. You're trying to quickly stick a prison lock or combo, willing to accept card disadvantage for mana efficiency if it helps you sculpt or protect more easily, saving your mana for the permanents. You can also make up the card disadvantage by timing ETutor with Counterbalance out to counter a spell.
Helm of Obedience - "5,T: Win the game". Also a tutorable 4 cmc for CB, relevant to answer Chalice @ 2 and Karn.
On Thin Ice - 5th 1cmc removal (has been good in many Xerox decks) and way to ETutor a 1 cmc for Counterbalance
Court of Cunning - draw engine, alternate wincon, tutorable 3 cmc for CB. With Energy Field + Terminus + spot removal, you can hold Monarch for a while.
Scroll Rack - CB enabler, miracle enabler, card filtering & digging for combo pieces with fetchlands
Detention Sphere - catch-all removal to problems in game 1, tutorable 3 cmc for CB, pitches to Force
Engineered Explosives - more catch-all removal to problems at X=0,1,2 or 3. Tutorable 0 cmc for CB (vs LED decks).
Deafening Silence - anti combo, but also prevents you from protecting cards with FoW on your turn, so be careful about use
Ethersworn Canonist - alternate version of Silence that does let you protect Helm with FoW
Narset, Parter of Veils - prevent blue decks from outdrawing you in the lategame, dig for combo pieces
Web of Inertia - 4th copy of Energy Field that stops "attack" triggers and protects planeswalkers, also 3 cmc for CB
Back to Basics - this deck is all about ETutoring into "I win", must play 1
Pithing Needle, Wear // Tear, Dovin's Veto - flexible answers to many problems
I am really liking this! I already have the cards, so this likely where I will go with that crappy Lantern build I was running. Is Court of Cunning there for your alternative win con? It seems a little weak. Especially if you if you give your opponent the monarch. Loving this list!!
It's there for tutorable card draw as well as the alternate wincon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laser Brains
I played a different version of RipHelm in the Oko meta (without Scroll Rack). It was pretty strong overall. But I found it had a lack of card draw to pull ahead in grindy long games, even when the lock is established or the board is under control. You shouldn't be durdling while the opponent has time to outdraw you and break your advantage. (Examples of when you need to tutor for cards over Helm are if you want to sculpt protection in hand before exposing Helm or the opponent has a Karn/Spyglass/Needle). For mechanic reasons, this deck can't support the usual suspects like Standstill, Snapcaster, Search for Azcanta, or Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath. As a solution I added Court of Grace. It was decent for draw and could threaten to steal back the Monarch but overall slow as a wincon, because it just turned on their dead removal spells and made StP lifegain suddenly relevant. Now I'm trying out Court of Cunning as it's easier on the mana, fits the CB curve better, pitches to Force, and synergizes with RiP better.
Just having Scroll Rack should also smooth out those awkward topdecking games. I haven't tested Scroll Rack yet, but it seems good here for a lot of roles now that it's not a 3/3 Elk. It makes CB and Terminus much better, fights the discard that's seeing increased play now, and gives the deck better card selection. Rack also works with Court to clear 2 duds (you can target both players).
I'm not too worried about opponent taking the Monarch. The deck is usually good at holding off dumb creatures if it's survived long enough to bother casting a Court. In those games drawing 2 cards per turn is huge for ensuring the lock doesn't fall. If creature-heavy decks (tribal aggro, D&T, Maverick) give it trouble, the 1 Court can be boarded out.
Alternate wincon could be Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Entreat the Angels. The mainboard could be tweaked by a slot or two to make room. Jace was not in the old build because it was bad in the Oko meta. 1 copy in the 75 seems good here.
This is looking like a really tight list! If you're not worried about creatures too much then Court of Cunning should work well. You've also got Web of Inertia on the side just in case. I'm going to proxy the few cards I don't have and give this a spin.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
As far as Scroll Rack goes, I have tested it and it felt really strong to me. It was one of the best things I did with that crappy Lantern build. It's still not quite as good with CB as Top is because you can't just put it on top of your deck to counter 1cc spells but you can literally swap your entire hand for fresh cards and hopefully grab a fetchland to shuffle them all away. Also, you can put any card from your hand on top of the deck to interact with CB. It felt really really smooth to me.
Are we mostly running On Thin Ice for a lone 1 drop enchantment in which to combo with E-Tutor and CB interactions? Or do we really need that 5th STP? I'm wondering if a lone Land Tax would be better in this slot. It's still a one drop enchantment and this deck does want more card draw and of course it rocks with Scroll Rack.
A bit of both. I noticed more Xerox piles were running 5 1cc removals lately, though this deck already has a lot of anti-aggro maindeck. Land Tax seems good too.
Okay, so I've been goldfishing this a little. So far it seems that Land Tax feels pretty good here. It would be nice to have something to sac lands to such as in Parfait but really, even if you only activate it once you get a lot of value. I really want to test this deck but will have to wait a few days unless I play online which kills my soul.
Try out Land Tax then. Seems worth it.
Like many prison decks, my build runs a lot of card disadvantage for tempo to get and protect the locks early. It's a common prison gambit. If it works, your early lock nullifies a ton of the opponent's cards and you win. The tradeoff is in grindy games it struggles to recover cards, and many cards that would fix that would be tempo sucks in fast games. Land Tax fits that niche well by costing only 1 but potentially drawing many cards. Even if you just get 3 lands once, it catches you up in cards and ensures smooth mana to play out the combo (sometimes I stall to find 5 mana to Helm + activate at once). Then with either Brainstorm or Scroll Rack it just gets better.
Looking forward to hearing your results. If you're playing vs Sharkstill, you'll need to board aggressively. The SB is set up to have a lot of cards to bring in vs spell-based control, while the maindeck has more answers for fair creatures and unfair combos. Depending on the Sharkstill build you'll want to take out some of the anti-aggro and card disadvantage to bring in 1-for-1s (red blasts, Fluster, Veto), Narset, the 2nd Helm, and maybe Wear//Tears. B2B is good if they're on manlands. They're very slow so you don't need tempo as much as you need enough resources to trade and still protect your wincon.
Yes, I possibly will be going up against Sharkstill again, this is my buddy's pet deck. Looks like I could also be playing against Esper Mentor as well and I could have him run pretty much any other deck. We've got pretty much the entire gauntlet of decks proxied up and ready for testing. Anything you'd like to see it tested against?Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
So, yeah I noticed there is some card disadvantage from the likes of FoW, FoN and E-Tutor. I sort of want to run 2 Land Tax. Another thought is to cut 4 land and run Chrome Mox. This of course would be more card disadvantage but I'm wondering if less land and more mana rocks would help with activating Land Tax (being that you don't need as much land on the table). It would also supply ramp. I'm thinking though that the card disadvantage might outweigh the advantages. Especially if you never see a Land Tax.
Your sideboard looks nice and REBs should be good against Teferi, Jace, Sharkstills etc.. His build doesn't run manlands so I won't need B2B. I'll take your advice on the rest.
2nd Land Tax is worth testing, either main or SB.
I think Mox isn't worth it. Unlike Chalice decks, you don't need to have a lock piece on turn 1.
A great curve out vs a fast deck is something like
T1 cantrip/removal/ETutor
T2 lock piece A
T3 upkeep ETutor or mainphase cantrip + lock piece B (or Scroll Rack/CB with 1 open)
With Force + blue card in hand
Because RiP, Energy Field, CB and Scroll Rack all cost 2 mana it curves out well like that. 1 extra turn of cantripping for turn 4 lock is fine too, or if they have no clock then you can just set up directly for a Helm+activate with protection.
Mox could potentially let you drop business T1 & T2 instead of T2 & T3. But often you need to sculpt or interact first anyway, so that mana boost doesn't necessarily make it a turn faster in practice. Meanwhile it costs you a card. I'm not sold that it adds enough tempo to be worth it. On the other hand, you can see how ETutor costing 1 mana and Force being free are really good tempo in those starts. Often against fast decks I felt like I got Energy Field just in time, and 1 turn later would have been too slow, with every single mana spent counting.
I recommend testing against fair creature decks first to get a feel for the deck mechanics. Most combo, especially GY based ones, should be easy. Oko/Uro piles were positive matchups too, which was what got me on this in the first place. Trolling textless Oko at 20 counters and the 1UG Explore was satisfying.
Spell-heavy control decks with lots of card advantage and few creatures and minimal graveyard reliance, like Landstill and Esper Mentor, are/were bad matchups. CounterRack and Land Tax may help significantly in those grindy games, unsure how much. The previous version didn't have Scroll Rack. That testing is definitely needed, especially postboard. But if that's all you test against then it may get discouraging.
Awesome! Thanks for the advice. Yeah, I think he's going to want to play Esper Mentor and he always plays Sharkstill but we can test it against Goblins, D&T, Esper Vial and a bunch of combo decks as well. It'll probably be next week by the time we get to play though.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I think your right about Mox too. I use to play a lot of Parfait in Vintage back when Keeper, Nether Void and Dragon were top decks. My thoughts were that I used to run a few off color moxen to support my mana base as I sacked lands to Zuran Orb to support Land Tax. But here I don't think we need that especially at the cost of a card. I think we can activate Land Tax once or twice and we should be good. I think for now I should just run 1x Land Tax. The deck is so tight I couldn't see cutting anything else anyway.
I played this yesterday and it was really strong. I'd even go as far to say that this deck is amazing! Most of the games there was no sideboarding and I'll explain a little bit more on that, but first, here is the list. And btw, because I didn't run the sideboard I didn't run red for REBs.
RiP Helm Miracles: 60
Lock / Synergies: 15
4x Rest in Peace
3x Energy Field
3x Counterbalance
3x Scroll Rack
2x Land Tax
Win: 2
1x Helm of Obedience
1x Court of Cunning
Control / Removal: 13
4x Force of Will
2x Force of Negation
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Terminus
1x Detention Sphere
Search / Draw: 11
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Enlightened Tutor
Land: 19
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
3x Tundra
4x Island
3x Plains
1x Karakas
First I went 2-1 against Goblins. The very first game I played I lost but barely and I really didn't know how to play the deck at this point. I could have and should have won. This was an extremely easy match up. I would like to say that I actually went 3-0 but first time playing made some mistakes. This was so simple that I feel I could 10-0 against it.
Next I played against my buddies extremely strong Sharkstill deck that has been giving me fits in our last several sessions. First of all, there are a ton of dead cards in his deck being that mine is creatureless. I literally whooped him 4-0. Then I allowed him to sideboard even though I couldn't because I didn't have one. That game he did beat me but I think if I had a sideboard it wouldn't have been too hard.
One of the 4 games I won I did lock him out with Scroll Rack + Counterbalance. This worked amazingly well. Land Tax + Scroll Rack was actually nice in one game too. Energy Field + Rest in Peace was my most common lock and he'd just about scooped every time that happened. His Replenishes were dead with Rest in Peace in play.
LOVE this deck. Going to get the sideboard together for the next session. Not only was it blast to play, I feel like it has major potential. We're gonna test it more in the future. BTW, I feel like I my flex slot / slots are land. Cutting a land or two for more control wouldn't suck do to Land Tax, FYI.
I'm thinking cutting a land or two for Daze. Daze seems like it would interact fairly well with Land Tax being that it returns a land.
Great results! Glad you had fun playing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laser Brains
Yeah, I think this strategy has real legs. The threat of the various locks and combos sort of forces the opponent to deviate from their plan A and play into a different game of fighting over enchantments. Most 75s are designed to answer creatures much better than enchantments, so they're fighting with a handicap where you have more haymakers than they have answers. In the Oko-Uro meta it dodged everything those decks were trying to do (the 1 nonland permanent type Oko can't wreck + shutting off the GY value train). Playing 0 creatures and MD 4x gravehate also punishes a lot of decks in game 1, before they can board into a better configuration.
I haven't looked into playing more Land Taxes and fewer land but that seems strong. I haven't explored Daze either because I wasn't building as much around Land Tax.
Your manabase is smoother without red, but postboard I think red helps the blue matchups. How did Sharkstill beat you postboard? REBs might be enough to win those counter wars protecting your engines.
List looks fun; intrigued to try it out in the current meta.
Is there a discord for this deck that you folks know about?
I think the Sharkstill matches pre-sideboard were in my favor because my opponent had so many dead creature removal cards. Once he sided out 8-10 removal cards and replaced them with counters and artifact/enchantment removal is were he got me. Although, had I been able to side against him it would have been better. And yes, I believe REBs would have been really nice here.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I was recently on vacation so I haven't had a chance to get back to this thread. I did however get to play this same list just before I left and I tested it against a larger pool of decks. Again no sideboards. I wish I had, but I didn't record my stats. My brother was visiting from Idaho (he's an insanely good player btw) so we were testing it against decks I already had together.
I will say that this deck seemingly stomps Vial decks. If I remember correctly I went something like 4-1 against Death & Taxes. The previous week I was beating up on Goblins. So Vial decks imho are just easy.
Next I played against Eldrazi and those match ups were about 50/50. We played this a lot. I can't remember exactly but I think we either went 5-4 or 4-5 here. So that is still pretty good. Chalice hurts a bit but it isn't game ending.
Next we played Elves. Can't remember the stats but this match up was in my favor. We have too much removal and the combos come together quickly.
Next we played BUG Threshold (with Goyfs, Delvers, Hexdrinkers, Stifle etc..) and I honestly can't remember the exact stats but this match up seemed to go 50/50 as well.
Then we played Enchantress and to my surprise this was a bad match up. Again, can't remember the stats but once an Enchantress hit the table it was all over within the next couple of turn. I did however win a few here.
I'm going to get the sb together and maybe splash red for my next session which is in about a week.
Conclusion: There is no doubt in my mind. This deck is really really good. While not unbeatable, it seems to stomp some top tier decks and at the very least hold it's weight even against it's 50/50 match ups. I only had one really poor showing and that was against Enchantress. However, in theory we should be beating that deck every time. I just wasn't drawing any counter magic. My one recommendation is to include more. A sb would be really helpful in determining how good this deck really is. One thing I do know is that it is a blast to play!
EDIT: I did feel that I could cut a land, maybe two. Especially since we have Land Tax. If I do, I'm thinking 1-2 more counter magic spells would fit well. Probably either Daze or Spell Pierce. Even though we're not a tempo deck I like the way Daze interacts with Land Tax.
Great results again! Glad to see you doing well with this and enjoying it!
I would be trying it out in paper tournaments already if they were still a thing. Maybe I'll suck it up and buy the cards online to play this on MTGO.
The way I set up my build, the mainboard is a bit light on countermagic but the SB has a lot to board in. That configuration does make us weaker preboard vs creature-light control decks, but then the main does well against other decks. In testing I liked that MB/SB split. However just playing just that main without any SB is going to leave you short on answers for some matchups like Enchantress and postboard Sharkstill. I think you'll notice a difference once you start playing with a SB. You might still decide on a different MB/SB split with more counters main, but having the SB really helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laser Brains
All these cards in my SB are good vs Enchantress:
Dovin's Veto (extra counter)
Wear // Tear (enchantment kill)
Engineered Explosives (kills Enchantresses)
Detention Sphere#2 (more enchantment kill)
Narset, Parter of Veils (shut down their draw engine!)
Ethersworn Canonist/Deafening Silence (stop them from chaining multiple spells per turn)
Back to Basics (lock down Serra's Sanctum)
You might decide on some different SB card choices. The general idea was to have multiple counters, multiple enchantment/artifact kill, and then a few silver bullets. I tried for diverse answers that can be used against multiple things.
Vs decks like Enchantress and Sharkstill I would bring in counters and enchantment kill and board out StPs, 1 Energy Field, and some other slots depending on their deck build.
If you're thinking about cutting a land for a counter, first I'd try playing with a SB. If the SB means a 3-color manabase, you may decide you don't want to cut a land anymore (risks losses to tempo). If you can find a good SB in just 2 colors then you might be OK cutting land. REBs seem strong though. Wear//Tear helps to get around Chalice @ 1 or Chalice @ 2 (which could be a common choice vs this deck).
Yeah, Energy Field beats up on creature decks. They might have a few answers in the 75 but we can just save counters for those or have redundant copies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laser Brains
Important ruling: If you have RiP/Field and they kill RiP, it exiles itself so Energy Field lives. If they kill Energy Field, RiP exiles it so a 2nd copy of Energy Field doesn't get killed. The combo insulates itself against getting 2-for-1d.
That means if you're in a board stall vs a creature deck and they're trying to a set up a game state where they can sneak through one Disenchant and alpha strike, you can play around that by playing out a 2nd Energy Field (2nd RiP helps too). Now they have to resolve at least 2 Disenchants vs your control deck. Pretty much unwinnable for them.
Postboard the Wear//Tears and EE help to beat Chalice decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laser Brains
Chalice isn't game ending but still hurts so we're better off answering it (Chalice @ 1 shuts down card selection, Chalice @ 2 shuts down engines). If the play Chalice @ 2 in G1, you can ETutor into Detention Sphere.
Karn into Lattice is game ending. Must-counter.
Thank you for the sb advice! I really do want REBs and Wear // Tear, but I think (at least with my build) I'm gonna first start with a Blue White sb to see if it's possible. At least for now there are no Okos to worry about. I could essentially keep your original sideboard (below) but cut 2x Wear//Tear for 2x Detention Sphere or even Seal of Cleansing. And then maybe cut both Pyro and REB for Spell Pierce.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
//Sideboard: 15
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Dovin's Veto
2 Wear // Tear
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Deafening Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Back to Basics
1 Detention Sphere
1 Web of Inertia
1 Helm of Obedience
Good call on the RIP/Energy Field ruling. I hadn't noticed that yet. Good to know! Also, all of the other advice you posted. Good stuff! Now I have some more cards to order.
Okay, so I had a casual deck built when I first started playing mtg around this combo and loved it. Can you elaborate more on the plan with this list in discussion? I haven’t played with land tax or scroll rack before.
Is the general plan to play out your pieces and just survive until you can helm?
What about T3feri to help protect interaction or Karn to get helm if you need another one?
I’m going to try your list and I’ll give some feedback.
The OP lists in this thread are more focused on accelerating out the RiP+Helm combo in a semi-casual way. What Laser and I have built here is a bit different from that. It's more UW control with a combo finish (control-combo). Helm is just a compact noncreature "I Win" button taking up little deck space, that you can tutor or dig for when you're ready to finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by FistaCuffSmith
This is my take on the deck and my motivations behind building it, but Laser may have other opinions as a player with more Parfait background.
Fundamentally this is a tap-out UW control based on proactive permanents instead of a reactive spells. UW control has been a dominant force in Magic for a long time, combining blue to control the stack and white to control the board. UW control can be either reactive (draw-go, holding up instant-speed answers) or proactive (tapping out to play permanents that establish control). This is a proactive version. The permanents assemble to form some useful combos that threaten to provide massive virtual card advantage if they stick. This forces the opponent to fight over your enchantments under the threat that you'll just take over the game otherwise. Because the permanents are artifacts and enchantments, you're exploiting the fact that most Legacy decks run very few answers to resolved enchantments. We proactively spam out more things than they can answer, protect them with counters, then use those engines to run away with the game. Once you've got the game locked up, Helm is an elegant 1-card "I win" button.
Reeplcheep's Curse Stompy decks fights the current meta along a similar angle: maindeck gravehate, proactive permanent-based prison, then playing a 1-card "I win" like Curse or Helm.
2-card Combos
Rest in Peace + Energy Field: You can't take damage (although you can take life loss). RiP exiling cards turns off Energy Field's usual self-destruct. This combo makes most board states and win conditions completely irrelevant, forcing the opponent to divert from their game plan to answering this so they can actually do things. RiP also hates out a lot of GY-based value engines that are common right now.
Rest in Peace + Web of Inertia: A slight variation on RiP+Field, this one means your opponent can't turn creatures sideways (but does let you take other sources of damage, e.g. Lightning Bolt). Web is useful to stop "attacks" triggers on creatures like Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Because this is more of a corner case, we only run 1 Web and in the SB. Most of the time Energy Field is better.
Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience: With RiP out, Helm basically reads "5: Win the game". You want to get RiP out early for the other combos and for general grave hate. Then, when you're ready, you can go "5: Win the game". Ideally you want to get control first and have counters in hand to protect the combo, but you can goldfish out the combo if they're Hellbent. ETutor finds this at EOT or Upkeep for 1 mana so you can pull this out of nowhere pretty quickly.
Land Tax + Scroll Rack: If you have fewer lands in play than the opponent, Land Tax has "0: Put 3 lands in your hand. Shuffle". 1 mana to draw 3 cards is good, even better if it's repeatable. The drawback is that these cards are lands. Extra lands are usually redundant, and then you run out of lands in the deck and can't keep repeating. But Scroll Rack lets you put those 3 lands (and any other unwanted cards) back to draw fresh cards. Combined you're paying 1 mana to just draw 3 free random cards each turn. The lands go back to your library so Land Tax can find the same 3 lands again next turn, and Scroll Rack can convert them into 3 new cards again. Unchallenged this threatens to give you overwhelming card advantage in the late game and just bury the opponent. UW control drawing this many free cards is too much for most decks to handle.
Counterbalance + Scroll Rack: Similar to Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top, being able to pay 1 colorless mana to change the top card of your library at instant speed allows you to essentially have a repeatable "1, T: counter target spell". Counterbalance is a dumb card that completely dominates the stack. Unchallenged, this is insane virtual card advantage by nullifying (or threatening to nullify) most cards in the opponent's hand because they will just get countered over and over again without you expending any cards yourself.
Why are we playing these separate combos together?
UW Counterbalance Miracles was Tier 1 in Legacy for a long time. Counterbalance is such a busted card. The Sensei's Divining Top ban put a stop to that. Since Top's banning, UW Miracles was still strong but the Counterbalance lock wasn't nearly as busted because it was harder to sustain and easier to get through, and Counterbalance was what really pushed that deck over the top. Scroll Rack isn't as good as Top but can still set up many of the same shenanigans by manipulating Counterbalance, putting Miracles on top of your library, as well as drawing free cards with Land Tax.
Note that you can activate Scroll Rack in response to an enemy spell and put back 4 cards (3 lands + 1 other card on top), both setting up Counterbalance and drawing free cards from Land Tax. It doesn't have to be either-or. You can do both at once. With proper stack control and sequencing these two combos fit together well, enabling stack control and card advantage. Both can be good in winning the late game.
So why hasn't CounterRack Miracles taken off in Legacy? Scroll Rack is slower, more vulnerable, and more durdly than Top. Legacy is a tempo format, so it risks losses to fast decks. That's where I think the Energy Field + Rest in Peace combo complements it well. RiP/Field gives us tools to stop pressure from fast decks, while Counter/Rack and Tax/Rack give us tools to fight spell-based strategies, protect Rip/Field prison, and establish late game dominance. They fit together well. Rip/Field protects us while we set up other durdlier things, and the durdlier things protect Rip/Field as the game stalls out. We don't need to CB everything, as long as we can protect our prison and their Decays are torn between answering RiP/Field and answering CB. Sometimes the potential threat of each combo is enough.
All of this is tied together by extremely powerful and efficient card selection (4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 3 ETutor, Scroll Rack) to let you assemble the pieces you need when you need them. Because you are tapping out to play permanents, free counters (6xForce) play a big role in both protecting your pieces and stopping opponent's early noncreature plays, especially vs combo and prison decks.
Playing the deck
Like any control deck, the play pattern will come down to guessing what your opponent is on and then choosing the lane to stop their plan, using card selection tools to sculpt your hand in that direction.
Against an aggro player you want to jam Rip+Field as fast as possible and then protect it with counters. That will prevent them from winning, and then eventually you can pull ahead in cards and set up a win condition.
Against a control player, you want to jam Counterbalance or Tax-Rack, establish hand dominance, and then you'll be able to stick Helm having more protection than they have answers.
Against a combo player you use control pieces to fight their combo and Counterbalance should eventually win the stack if they try for a second wind.
This deck gets free edges against graveyard combos and graveyard engines by having maindeck graveyard hate. Lately the format has been full of control decks using graveyard value engines (Uro, Loam, Snapcaster, DHA before it was banned) so playing control on a different axis (enchantments instead of GY) both dodges the hate for those decks and hates out their engines.
Why this over traditional UW control
Reactive 1-for-1 control loses to 2-for-1 control. Lately UGx and UBx control have been full of proactive 2-for-1 tools (Uro, Ice-Fang, Field of the Dead, Oko, Dreadhorde, Baleful Strix, Snapcaster-Hymn, Liliana). A reactive strategy (removal + counters) is going to run out of answers against strategies like that. Even when you answer it, they're ahead in cards, so eventually you run out of answers and they win. Instead of fighting the uphill battle of trying to answer each threat in a game where creatures are increasingly harder to answer, we set up our own proactive prison. Our prisons can represent 6-for-1s or better if they stick. Maindeck graveyard hate also weakens popular engines like Uro.
I originally brewed this when Oko/Uro was the dominant control deck. Enchantment-based proactive control with maindeck GY hate punked everything those decks were trying to do, which seemed like a more winning strategy than trying to react to a resolved Oko. But since Oko's ban we get back the power of Scroll Rack (with both CB and Land Tax), which open up other ways to establish degenerate lategame dominance. And we still hate out Uro.
I'm not claiming this is better than Miracles, but I think it's a fun deck that can attack the meta along different angles and pull out a lot of wins from the sheer power of these combos.
My current list looks like this. I think Laser Brains is right that stable mana is more important in this meta than the red splash for minor SB value (REB).
//Lands: 19
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
5 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Karakas
//Enchantments and Artifacts: 18
2 Land Tax
4 Rest in Peace
3 Energy Field
3 Counterbalance
3 Scroll Rack
1 Detention Sphere
1 Court of Cunning
1 Helm of Obedience
//Spells: 23
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Force of Negation
2 Terminus
//Sideboard: 15
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Web of Inertia
1 Back to Basics
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Deafening Silence
1 Pithing Needle
2 Detention Sphere
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Dovin's Veto
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
Using Enlightened Tutor effectively
I think ETutor is one of the most slept-on cards in Legacy and love playing with it. Vampiric Tutor and Mystical Tutor have been banned since the early days of the format for good reason. The ability to spend 1 mana at instant speed to access a wide range of powerful cards in your deck is very strong, even if it's card disadvantage. Most people who dismiss this card focus on the card disadvantage aspect. The key thing is that you don't spend ETutor to find a 1-for-1 answer or fair threat. ETutor for 1-for-1s will leave you with card disadvantage and losing at Magic. Even tutoring for a 2-for-1 is questionable play, because it will net out to card-neutral except you were committed to a specific sequence of cards just to get back to card parity.
The way to abuse ETutor is to look for combo wins and 6-for-1s. This deck is full of enchantment-artifact combos that threaten to provide insane virtual card advantage. Energy Field lock nullifies every creature on their board, in their hand, and in their deck. It's an even bigger card swing than a board wipe (which just answers the creatures on board). Counterbalance lock nullifies entire hands and draw steps. Land Tax + Scroll Rack draws 3 cards per turn. Helm reads "5: Win the game". These are things worth risking card disadvantage for, especially if you can assemble them and protect them with very little tempo cost (1 mana instant speed card selection + free counters).
The SB contains an ETutor package following that theme. Back to Basics can nullify whole manabases. Leyline of Sanctity proactively cancels discard, burn, and targeted combos. Deafening Silence hoses whole deck archetypes. Web of Inertia creates a lock similar to Energy Field. Engineered Explosives can be used to answer a single problem permanent if you really need it, but it can also wipe multiple things. We don't want cards like Seal of Cleansing because ETutoring for a 1-for-1 is a bad play. Detention Sphere is a better spot removal to lean on because at least it can potentially remove multiple things, it gets through both Chalice @ 1 and Chalice @ 2, it fills the 3 cmc gap on the CB curve.
2nd Helm is a backup win condition. In G2 they are more likely to play to fight over Helm, so it can help to have a 2nd in grindy matchups in case you miscalculated and lost the fight over the first one. Court of Cunning is a maindeck backup win condition that can be useful to win through hate like Pithing Needle, Karn, Teeg, Ouphe, etc. Court also draws you cards, pitches to Force, and fills the 3 spot on the CB curve.
Teferi, Time Raveler seems good in theory. I started with some in the deck. The problem is Energy Field doesn't protect him. So we either have to expend extra resources to protect him or he dies to creatures that are otherwise textless dead cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by FistaCuffSmith
Karn suffers from the same problem.
We're really trying to leave the opponent with a bunch of dead cards by ignoring creature removal and not giving their creatures anything to attack or block.
Edit: 3feri might be good out of the SB to win beat counter-heavy spell decks. It's just awkward that he turns on their otherwise dead cards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Wow, so much information to digest. Thanks for such a detailed response. I am fairly new to actually playing legacy, but this combo gives me fond memories. I played one match against maverick and got beat pretty handily. However, I did establish tax and scroll and it started to make sense. I plan on playing some more matches tonight. I will report back.
@FTW: New list looks tight! Sideboard looks really good too. I literally have the entire deck in paper and it is a beaut! I do need to pick up a few more of the sideboard cards like Hall of Heliod's Generosity, a 2nd Helm and Back to Basics. I'll be playing this, with sideboard, on Friday and give a report with stats.
Great deck break-down too. Could be the start of a primer.
If you decide to play this on MTGO I'd be really curious to see how it does. I'd like to take this to a paper event but because of Coronavirus Magic isn't quite the Gathering that it used to be. Once things hopefully get back to normal I will be taking it to an event.