Oops... yeah you're right there. Sorry my bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkJester
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Oops... yeah you're right there. Sorry my bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkJester
I think Lands is particularly easy as well. The cards we care about are Life from the Loam, Crop Rotation and Gamble as those accelerate their access Bojuka Bog. It's not going to be game over if you get hit by one either, but obviously if they can recur it, you're donezo.
To combat that one scenario they are wrecking us, I'm bringing in a total of 11 cards - 4 Force, 4 Shoal, 3 Surgical. To make space for all this, I take out combo pieces and Therapy. By doing this, you also blank their Trinispheres that they probably brought in since you will already have played your Probes. Then you get to play a little random numbers sub-game with your deck hopefully delivering early Ichorids as those are your MVP.
I suppose if they are truly adept with their deck, they could wait to expose Loam until they are behind a Trinisphere (Macabre still doesn't care though), but that also leaves them vulnerable to our explosiveness. It just feels like they are always getting squeezed from different angles by our deck and that gives us the upper hand most of the time.
Interesting idea.. though what usually happens with me is this: Trinisphere (neutralizing counters), and then everything else. Faerie Macabre really shines here though.
Greetings again!
I have changed to fearless build, for I play tested the blue package with mediocre results. I feel that the addition of counters makes the deck too inefficient in what it's supposed to do: dredge. We know this, but to go along the lines of combo, we need to be fast. Inefficient dredges defeats the concept of speed. I have also changed to a combo build in the sense that I increased Dread Returns and Griselbrands. I now consistently drop Grisel on turn two much more than I did before. Thanks for the ease in dealing with my tenacious aggro pitch; still aggro, but combo to seal wins faster.
Vengeful Pharaoh is amazing in my sideboard; I run 4 with great results. He does very well against Show and Tell matchups. Don't forget that you can drop him with their Show and Tell. If they drop Omni then Emrakul, you should be fine. Annihilator will hit Pharaoh and send him to the grave. Emrakul hits, not for lethal, then Pharaoh kills Emrakul. Either they have to chain Emrakuls, which reduces their combo effectiveness, or move to their Ant clash combo. I have chewed up a bunch of Edrazi in this fashion. I even killed an Iona while playing against Reanimator. I don't normally bring him in other aggro matchups, as I feel that the deck is speedy enough to deal with them. He is also anti Bridges, which makes for only sb material. Wondering if anyone else has tested this fella...
Happy Magicing!
Read the thread and you'll find answers.
RE: Vengeful Pharoah, yeah he can be pretty good on occasion. I've tested him a fair bit, read though the last 4 or 5 pages or so to see some thoughts from a few of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by zzap
RE: Blue VS Fearless.
Blue still has the same number of dredgers, Dread Returns and acceleration in Wraith/Probe from the lists I've seen.
Where blue misses out is the last few slots for Chancellor and Baubles.
Thing is, Manaless is dead to any fast deck that can win on T1 or T2, unless you have active counter.
You're consistently dropping G-man on turn2? I know it's all possible, but *consistently* is a big claim.
Could you post a list?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
Are you guys talking about RUG or RG-Lands?Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
You probably have way more experience with Manaless than me, but I've been playing RG-Lands quite intensively for over a year now, and I have never lost the matchup versus dredge. That's just personal experience, but I'm pretty sure the Lands-matchup is unfavorable for Dredge. It is not just Bojuka Bog, that's just a setback. It's Glacial Chasm that's the problem, since dredge cannot beat a preboard Chasm + loam. And there's 8 1manatutors in Crop Rotation and Gamble to find them in time. There aren't many decks (perhaps none) with so many preboard solutions to Dredge as Lands. Besides that, Lands has a fast clock of its own.
Ofcourse there are postboard options, but since there's no mulliganing, you do need a fair share of luck to have them in the opening hand. Lands on the other hand will sideboard as well, up to 6 (trini)spheres, and can mulligan for these or the tutors / silverbullets.
I can't speak for the other boys, but I'm talking about that Lands deck with the Loam-engine, Bojuka Bog, Chasm, Dark Depths etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivfader
I've not had a large amount of time playing against this deck, but I've not done well against it at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivfader
Glad to see shoals out from sides! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by scottpou
I say this because in playtesting using this side:
4 FoW
4 Shoal
4 M. trap
i found shoal, even fow, very conditional cards. With fow, you need a blue card which become 16 if you side in 4 fow and 4 shoal with 4 probes and 4 moebas but with shoal you precisely need moeba to deal with rip and probe to deal with cage. This bothered me.
I'd prefer a side more like:
4 Trap
4 FoW
4 Unmask (you have extra black cards all time)
3 Macabre.
what's your guys maindeck lists look like nowadays? i've been using the same one on modo for a while, but have only had time to play in casual 1v1's. current list is still using 4 md FoW, 3 whirlpool rider and the rest of the usual suspects
That's why when you go with blue, you change the reanimation target to whirlpool riderQuote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
4 BloodghastQuote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Griselbrand
4 Ichorid
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dakmor Depths
4 Wasteland
I am very happy with my list; the only weak spot in the deck are the probes, so I am waiting for a replacement to be printed.
some questions about your brew:
do you not miss nether shadow? doesn't griselbrand seem kind of bad? you can't win without attacking and he's greatly affected by karakas. i don't quite understand the 4 wasteland, it seems like it's taking up a lot of slots. and playing this many lands, and still not having any way to deal with the hate cards seems a bit strange.
i'm not saying your decisions are bad, but i think they warrant some kind of explanation.
Nether Shadow: I've posted before writing that, in my opinion, Bloodghast is better. BG can hit the board on T2 without help from Phant or Wraith unlike Nether. Nether has the same hiccup as Ichorid in that they can't activate the turn they are dredged. Also, 2/1 is much bigger than a 1/1 where a grindy match needs to be played.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Griselbrand: He is soft wincon by himself. Then he dredges my deck. He plays very well against Show and Tell, where Spy can't be dropped because you lose the game on your turn. Karakas hardly hurts; I respond with dredging and/or Wasteland.
Wasteland: This is my personal choice; usually lists with BG run Arbors, so I replaced them with WL. I believe the choice is sound. WL can win games by themselves, as I have had the chance in opening a hand with double WL which is absolutely brutal for greedy decks. The land helps me fight DRS at times by hitting their critical colors. So far so good, for I have been blessed with solid results and compliments from opponents many times on CT for their inclusions.
Fearless: My deck is Fearless, so hate will be hate. I have run FOWs packages before, and I haven't seen much improvement. I have countered hate before, but I have also had delinquent dredges because of FOWs and Shoals where I would have won if I hit another Narc instead.
Probes and WL dredged into the yard are making the deck less efficient; this is true. That's 8 cards that don't dredge well, but I believe that number is fine so long as it stays under 10. In my opinion, Probes are weaker than WL. I am considering replacing them with a playset of Pharaohs, but testing will prevail.
Keep Dredging!^^
Yes, but i still think that it is very specific.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitalca
You have to go shoal + Whirlpool to deal just with RIP. I feel it weak but that is how it works.
Or Shoal + Shoal, or Shoal + Narco. It happens ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Griselbrand is a fine DR target as long as you have 8+ life (or 11+ when facing anyRed.dec). Who cares about Karakas? You just activate his ability, dredge your deck and combo out that same turn. Heck, if necessary you just DR a 2nd one for that turn (as long as your life total is high enough).Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Nowadays I run a hybrid build with Nether Shadow, Ichorid AND Bloodghast as recurring critters and Whirlpool Drake as DR target. I run Drake over Rider b/c I don't use the counter package, so Drake lets me ignore a Stifle/lets me do my trick twice. I've been able to combo out with only 2 cards in hand, Drake is nuts (and it's easier to keep track of all that's going on then it is with River Kelpie). The only thing I'm having trouble with is finding enough creatures to feed to Ichorid(s). But that's mainly b/c I don't like to feed Ichorid Nether Shadows or Bloodghasts.
hi guys, my friend decide to play legacy (budget for now) and manaless it's sound a good idea ( he has already burn)
i don't know nothing about manaless. i found this list. it's old or it's ok?
4 Balustrade Spy
3 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
Spells [16]
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
Force of Will are necessary? some idea for side?
thanks.
List looks good. This is my preferred version of manaless with spy, dread returning a spy is usually good game. I personally would add a chancellor and subtract a shambling shell if drs is something you think you'll see regularly. A single serra avatar in your deck allows you to show and tell spy and win on your next turn, you could side one of these. Also, chancellor can be a great dread return target against certain decks. Force of will is definetly not necessary. Sometimes the card will save your ass, other times its just another dead card in your graveyard and any other card would have been better. Best bet ive found is learn the format and use cabal therapy to its full potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroko16
As Jimmy said:Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroko16
-1 Balustrade Spy
-1 Shambling Shell
+1 Chancellor of the Annex
+1 Progenitus/Serra Avatar/Darksteel Colossus/Worldspine Wurm
But that's it.
Progenitus or colossus. Way better since they have a replacement effect and not a trigger that can be answered
Prog is most likely the best choice out of all; it can be pitched for Force of Will. Also, in the acute case that Prog is in play, it cannot be stped or wipe awayed.
I went with Progenitus as well. Mostly b/c I happened to have one. But yeah, it can also be pitched to FoW/Unmask/Contagion/whatever.
I agree with this ^^^^, however I usually went with Worldspine Wurm cos my Progs disappeared a while back, and cos it's cheaper.Quote:
Originally Posted by zzap
Show and Tell would be the only way I would land it, and since Emrakul would make us sac our reanimated beat-stick more often than not, I like the idea that Wurm turns on Dread Return the next time we get to play sorcery-speed stuff.
That said, this line of play has never once actually happened for me yet (that I can remember anyway), but then I don't play Spy all that much unless I'm playing that silly Storm deck featuring Spy.
Besides, dropping Spy vs. Show & Tell is living the real dream, right :wink:.
"Oh no, my poor library". Next turn, combo out. "Nice Emrakul you got there".
opinion on this list?
THICKWICK (3-0)
LEGACY PREMIER #8762323 ON 09/13/2015
4 Bloodghast
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
3 Whirlpool Rider
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Force of Will
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dakmor Salvage
Sideboard
1 Force of Will
1 Blazing Archon
2 Contagion
2 Darkblast
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria 1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
A little light on the dredgers/Salvages but apart from that, it's close to what I play (I skipped on the blue package).
I'd say that's about as tight a list as it gets. Though, as long as there are no Disrupting Shoals in the 75, one might just as well run Whirlpool Drake instead of Rider (since you don't need CMC 2 blue cards, all you care about is that they're blue). The extra trigger can matter greatly and makes comboing out a lot easier.
Ha ha, nice one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
So question. I took blue manaless to the local last night and ran into belcher round three. How would you sideboard against this deck with the list below? I really struggle with a sideboard plan before and after I got dump trucked.
List
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Dread Return
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Phantasmagorian
3x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Street Wraith
3x Balustrade Spy
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
1x Progentius
Sideboard
4x Force of Will
4x Disrupting Shoal
3x Faerie macabre
3x Whirlpool Rider
1x Ashen Rider
Out:
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Street Wraith
2 Phantasmagorian
1 Nether Shadow
1 Shambling Shell
In:
3 Whirlpool Rider
4 Force of Will
4 Disrupting Shoal
Gives you the highest number of disruption and blue cards to pitch to FoW. I'm not sure if you'll be able to Shoal anything, but at least you can pitch it to FoW.
Ok, that’s pretty close to what I did, I wasn’t sure if I should side out the B.Spy pacakage or not because it allows for such a quick win. I did keep the Street Wraith’s in though because it did give me a little ability to dig for a FoW or Shoal. I am pretty new to the deck; Tuesday was the first day I played it ever so I find the sideboarding to be a little challenging with the deck. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I sideboarded the following:
Out:
3 Balustrade Spy
1 Progentius
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Nether Shadow
1 Shambling Shell
1 Dread Return
IN:
4 FoW
4 Shoal
3 Whirlpool Rider.
Shoal gets the following cards:
Land Grant
Desperate Ritual/Pyritic Ritual
Burning Wish
Some sideboard cards
Oh man don't ever board out your Flayer (unless for some reason you also board out all Dread Returns).
That's the single card that lets you close the game quickly.
Also, boarding out all 4 of your Nether Shadow leaves you with so few creatures to feed to Cabal Therapy (important card vs. combo) and Dread Return. You need your creatures man, they're your "lands".
^^ Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Phants, Shell are usually the cards I trim numbers down first and foremost.
After that it depends on how many side cards I'm choosing to bring in and what opponent I'm facing.
When I play manaless blue (I admit I've been playing storm lately), I play 4 Rider, 4 Force in the main. My main blue count is 16.
I do this because whilst Spy is a better reanimation target, Rider and Force in the main gives us more room in the side.
Yeah I didn't realize that until last night when I was gold-fishing the deck. I felt like I needed to answer the board, but why bother when you can win game. The nether shadows make sense, and cutting Street Wraith why isn't ideal is probably the most easiest choice. I was thinking about cutting the Spy's and just run maindeck Whirlpool riders to open up some sideboard space
So... The DTT era was a nightmare for this deck. But with it gone, people'll have to go through a bit more trouble to find their Grafdigger's Cages/RiPs etc, comparable to the pre-Khans meta. Miracles is probably going to run rampant again, which is a pretty good MU for this deck. The uprising of Elves! might suck though.
Anyone planning to bring this badboy out again? I fear my own meta is too hostile to graveyard strategies for this to be a viable choice, but other metas might differ.
Yeah I stopped playing Grave-based decks for while, mainly trying to win a game to be honest!!! Given that DTT demanded everyone had hardcore graveyard answers, I'm glad it's gone. :laugh: That said, I didn't really notice Miracles NOT dominating. They were running DTT aswell round me, so they've been their normal winning-self regardless. I don't really expect that to change...Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I am looking forward to pulling out LED/Manaless dredge again. I might wait to see how the meta shapes up though, same reason as yourself.
RE: Elves, I like Firestorm in LED-dredge, but manaless doesn't really have anything that powerful. Contagion doesn't quite have the same balls, but for me it's an automatic sideboard inclusion to deal with DRS.
Just wish they'd print something new relevant to this deck...
I'd be curious to see how a Manaless variant does with Hangarback Walker, Endless One, Phyrexian Marauder and Shifting Wall.
(All in on Bridge, I know. But still that'd be kind of cool.)
Not well. They're only useful in your opening hand. And yes, they count for Nether Shadow, but that's pretty much all it does. It's not like if you need the numbers for Grave Troll.
How many can you realistically use beyond the original 8?Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Keller
If you cut all the fat (including FoW/Chancellor) you can get the number up to 12 or so. Which means 19% chance of not having any in your opener, 38% chance to have exactly 1, 29% at exactly 2, 11% at exactly 3 and roughly 2,5% at 4 or more.
So generally speaking, you'd have 1 or 2 in your opening 7 when running 12.