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"Have Bolt or die" is a reasonable question to be asking, though. Sylvan Safekeeper is always going to be in the same deck as Titania, too. IMO she's good enough to be worth testing more, maybe in a Renegade Rallier shell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Actually, it's "Have Bolt/Daze/FoW or die". Since casting a 5 (or 6 if you GSZ) mana spell is begging for a counter. Daze can be blanked if you hit 6 or 7 mana, sure, but at that point we're starting to stretch things a bit. My point is that Bolt isn't the only card that can piss on your parade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
And Renegade Rallier still doesn't quite do what we want it to.
True, but counterspells are an answer to pretty much every spell in our deck so I don't think Titania is any worse off than the other options in that situation, and she dies to Bolt but in exchange applies a much faster clock than our other options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
What do you think we want Rallier to do?
I'd want Rallier to either return (or rather re-cast) spells w/ CMC <= 2 or to return permanents w/ CMC <= 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
What it does now is just too cute, even when paired w/ Titania (seeing as it'd usually hit the field before Titania does). For 3 mana I'd much rather cast a Tireless Tracker and threaten to take over the game ("Have Bolt or die").
Interesting. It also gives another landdrop, which potentially adds a counter to TT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
True, can't deny this, but even if you could manage to trigger her ability once or twice can be potentially backbreaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I think the bigger issue with Titania right now is the prevalence of BUG decks and thus the higher-than-normal amount of Deathrites. Titania becomes at best a one-trick pony if you are in fact able to keep fetches and/or a Wasteland in the grave. I think she is pretty lackluster if you can't make a token the turn she comes in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Maybe there's not actually much more Deathrites than normal, but to me it feels that way right now.
At some point before GP Vegas, I'll probably give in and buy the rest of the cards required for Dragon Fit online. I'd like to be able to get more reps in with the deck and drum up a bit more interest.
A counter and a clue, which we have the mana to easily turn into cards. Crop Rotation for a fetch is actually a line I take from time to time with Tracker. It's actually one of the lines that I think makes the card so powerful in our deck. Like GSZ it's early game acceleration, getting Tower. Midgame it's recursion with Phyrexian Tower. But if you're digging for something specific Tireless Tracker turns it into a draw 2, or even a draw 3 if you get some Courser of Kruphix action in there too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
I actually won a game the other day because I had 2 Trackers down and went Crop Rotation for Volrath's Stronghold, put Eternal Witness on top, next turn draw Witness, play it, get back Crop Rotation, rotation for a fetchland, fetch. That sequence was worth a 2/1, 6 cards, and +6/+6 on each tracker. My opponent just couldn't keep up, which was nice since they were ahead prior to that.
Yup, she'll turn the tide of unanswered. I was playing Lands, vs SnS. My opponent dropped Blood Moon which actually helped me: I was able to Crop Rotate for my lone Forest, took the turn, cast TT, with Exploration out made two landsrops a turn. Thanks to Clues i drew K-Grip, opted not to cast it, because in three turns TT was 11/10!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I would like to pull this of with straight BG Nic Fit, but also play big bombs.
The problem is that BG doesn't have a good selection of bombs, that you can GSZ atleast. There's Gitrog Monster but I don't think that's very good. There's Primeval Titan but paying 7 to GSZ is asking a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
What pushed me to straight BG was Nissa VF. She's better than Sigarda in my opinion, and doesn't require white. But then you get into the issue of not being able to GSZ. I'm currently using Chameleon Colossus as my biggest bomb. It has protection which is sometimes evasion, and hits really, really hard. I find that if you have the mana to tutor it, you can probably have the mana to pump twice on the following turn which makes it a 16/16. The only thing that can kill it is Swords/Path/Terminate basically. It survives Bolt, dodges Angler, dodges Strix, dodges Terminate, dodges Push, it even dodges germ tokens. That's not to say it's the best card ever, but I'm finding it to be an effective bomb.
What is stopping you from just playing goyfs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Goyfs has become a good target for Fatal Push and Gofy is only big dumb creture. Nic-fit want vaule and utilty creture in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Isn't that exactly what he wanted though? A big dumb creature that he could reasonably cast if he didn't get explorer online that was also fetchable with GSZ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
If you keep going down that route you may as well just play Rock though. At what point is VE/CT still worth it if all your creatures are low cost?Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
I considered it. I'm just looking for one slot. If you go back a few pages you'll find the discussion on it. Strangleroot Geist was suggested as an alternative though, and I gave it a shot. So far I'm liking it since being able to tutor up a hasted threat is pretty valuable in the face of things like Jace or even just as surprise combat damage. Goyf isn't out of consideration yet, but for now I've been liking Geist, especially with a setup that gets Tower more often. It rounds things out nicely.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
It's all about having mana sinks. High cost creatures are one form of a mana sink, but they only work when you have large amounts of mana. Instead I have lots of incremental mana sinks. SDT, Bob, DRS, Crop Rotation, Maze of Ith, Tireless Tracker, Stronghold, etc... these all add up as ways to use mana. I have no problems using my mana effectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Blood
Is anyone still running Dragonlord Dromoka in their lists? I like him in theory, but I've yet to find him in game, so it's hard to tell.
Right now i'm on a 4 planeswalker WBG list with 6Sorin, Nisssa VF x2, & Kaya.
Haven't run Dromoka in a long time. Yes, it's stronger than, say, Sigarda, but Sigarda usually still is enough to close out the game so why bother with something even bigger?Quote:
Originally Posted by amppyou
I think that Titania falls in the same category. It takes roughly the same kind of build as Tireless Tracker to be able to take over a game, but Tireless Tracker does it for 2 mana less. And again, Titania's effect is obviously more powerful than Trackers', but Tracker usually still is enough to close out the game if unanswered, so why bother?
If BUG is popular in a metagame I can see more argument for Titania. Tracker dies to Push and Decay and Titania doesn't care about either of them. Titania is also a 1-2 turn clock where Tracker usually takes 3-5 turns to actually reach lethal, which is a nonzero difference. Titania just needs to be in a build which can reliably expect to be able to keep the enemy board clear of Deathrite Shamans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Or, you know, ignore DRS and deploy more threats than they can answer. There's more than one road you can take.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
BUG isn't something you particularly need to build for.
This weekend I'm traveling a few hours to play in a win-a-Mox tournament in Missouri. I've never been to the shop that's hosting, so I'm unsure what sort of meta to expect. On the one hand, with a Mox Pearl on the line, I can expect every devoted Legacy player to sleeve up his or her best deck (except perhaps for me; I'll be leaving Elves and D&T at home, along with my better judgment). On the other hand, with a Mox Pearl on the line, casual and non-Legacy players may be tempted to enter their jankiest brew just to have a shot.
My Nyx Fit list is based heavily on the one Navsi provided for the revamped primer:
Lands: 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Scrublands
1 Savannah
Creatures: 13
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Non-creatures: 26 (main deck is 61 cards)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sterling Grove
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Living Plane
1 Nether Void
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Parallax Wave
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Aid from the Cowl
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 City of Solitude
1 Humility
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Lost Legacy
Considerations:
- I've found it helpful to have three basic Forests. Occasionally when running only two, I've sacrificed an Explorer and wished I could find two green sources in order to cast some of the GGX cards in the list (Eidolon, Witness, Courser, Aid from the Cowl). I'm a lot more likely to find them with the extra Forest available.
- In recent testing, I've gone down to just two Pernicious Deed in order to make room for a Toxic Deluge. While Deluge has no synergy with Starfield or Aid from the Cowl, it can affect the board much earlier than Deed, is more useful under mana constraint, isn't vulnerable to Stifle, and is a better answer to high-CMC threats like Gurmag Angler and Reality Smasher. It also doesn't threaten to destroy our own enchantments as Deed sometimes can. We still have plentiful tutor effects to find a Deed when the situation calls for it. So far the Deluge has tested well.
- I'm considering adding more graveyard hate to the board, both to account for the prevalence of BR Reanimator and to diversify the kinds of hate I can bring to bear. Lots of Reanimator players are running Reverent Silence, which is just about the last card any Nyx Fit player wants to see. I wonder whether it's worth adding Faerie Macabre, perhaps in place of the City of Solitude. Or should I simply resign myself to losing if they find their Reverent Silence, and devote my sideboard to other match-ups?
- I'm intrigued by the siren song of a sideboard Chromanticore. It shrugs off Abrupt Decay and Fatal Push, flies over and outraces True-Name Nemesis, and can be recurred through Starfield. Sigarda's hexproof is worth more than all of Chromanticore's keyword soup combined, but she isn't an enchantment, and in many match-ups a second tutorable threat has strong appeal.
- Nether Void is the newest addition to my list, so I don't have much experience with it. It's obviously great against Storm, Elves, Burn, and so on, but I'd be tempted to leave it in against Miracles and Delver, too. If anyone has any thoughts about how to make the most of Nether Void, I'm all ears.
Is there a reason that Painful Truths isn't super popular in many builds? It seems like it is perfect for this deck. Card advantage, plus this deck can overcome a 3 mana sorcery because it can sometimes still cast things afterwards. Life loss offset by multiple dudes that gain life. Why is this not a more popular card?
I've always thought it should be more popular in the Rhino Junk builds than it currently is. That version has no problem losing 3 life. 3 Tops goes a long way to helping card quality/filtering, but often the boost in raw cards can be game-deciding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Other builds of nic fit that rely solely on Thragtusk for life, it can be a tad hazy. Most other nic fit lists will usually tend to sacrifice life in order to prolong the game or setup a powerful Deed wipe. Especially so against Delver decks. That's probably the reason for more hesitation to running Truths.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobo
- I like 2/2/2 basics, personally, but either is fine. I can see the merits, but at the same time I don't like the inconsistency the 7th basic brings. Personally I'd drop the second Swamp and try to stay away from double-black cards if I was going for it.
- I'm not fond of Deluge, mainly because it's a card we would usually need early-game and we can't tutor for it, so it's unlikely to really be useful when we want it. We already have Parallax Wave for a 'sweeper' effect which doesn't cost extra mana after a Rector trigger.
- Reverent Silence is pretty awful for us, yes. I'd say if you expect a reasonable amount of enchantment hate, you want the second Starfield more than Aid from the Cowl. As far as not losing to wishboard Silence, I don't think it's something we can really plan to play around. Just eat it, recur your stuff and try not to die. More Nissas might help.
- Chromanticore is sweet. I'm trying to fit him into the Sigarda slot myself, with Collective Brutality for utility and as a discard outlet if he gets stuck in our hand. Having played with Atraxa recently, a 4/4 with Vigilance, Flying and Lifelink is disgustingly unbeatable for basically anyone being aggressive. The deck doesn't really need Sigarda specifically (remember Chromanticore has shroud with Sterling Grove), it just needs a fat monster it can Zenith for when we want to apply pressure.
- Nether Void is primarily good against people who cast lots of spells, or against people we can get ahead of on board. I can see it being good against Miracles, just because slamming Void when we have a creature and they don't probably makes them very unhappy, especially if they don't have a Top.
Congrats [emoji4]Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
What decks did you play against in that league?
I love every gb list, yours included, but I have a sincere question: isn't the deck lacking some beef? To me the deck seems to be lacking very powerful finishers/tools to stabilise the board immediately, have you not noticed anything like it while playing the deck?
It also seems CA light, but I might be wrong.
Good job with the league!
Excellent thoughts—thank you for sharing them. I may run a Cavern of Souls in place of that third Forest, as you suggested in the primer. I just realized how it breaks the symmetry of Nether Void (my newest card, recall) and lets us cast Rector. Then when Starfield hits, we can deliberately cast any enchantments we draw into Nether Void, let them get countered, and proceed to do broken things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I really like the thought of Collective Brutality in this deck, because with an active Starfield, the escalation cost can really work to our advantage. If things are going our way, we'd rather have enchantments in the yard than in hand anyway. It's tough to say how we could make room for it, though. Of all Nic Fit shells, I swear Nyx has the least wiggle room.
How often do you find you board in Humility+Curse? When I first picked up the deck, I just figured, "Oh, Humility is for Sneak and Show, 12-Post, Elves, Reanimator—the unfair creature decks." I've since found it performs well against any deck that wants to win through creature attacks. When it lands against Delver, Shardless, or Death and Taxes, it can often buy us the extra turns we need to assemble the Starfield/Deed engine or the Humility/Curse creature lock. It really hoses Miracles's end-game, too, barring a Jace ultimate. Granted, Parallax Wave is great against these fairer decks, too, but in games two and three, why not run both?
Oh, something I forgot to note in my last post: I really like City of Solitude in the board because, in addition to stopping counterspells, it also protects Academy Rector from being sniped by Deathrites when she goes to the graveyard. (So far in my experience, few legacy players are aware of this vulnerability of Rector, but it's nice to close that hole all the same.)
I beat:Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Elves (Julian Knab)
Grixis Delver x2 (LewisCBR, Bob Huang)
Burn
Enchantress with blue for Ponder, Energy Field (???)
So two of those decks/players were suspect.
Winning cards were typically Master of the Wild Hunt or Nissa. Master kills most things and blocks almost everything else. Nissa is the source of raw card advantage. What cards would you want me to run to stabilize the board that turn? Thragtusk? It's in my sideboard.
Crop Rotation gives you inevitability with your creatures by fetching Volrath's Stronghold.
Basically this. It is likely underplayed, but most nic fit versions use their life total for things other than drawing cards, and at the point at which you do use it to draw cards, you start to run into problems staying alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
The main problem w/ Painful Truths is that it's 3 mana. That puts it in the same territory as other, GSZ'able CA engines.
I've run 2 Painful Truths for quite some time and although they were never bad, they also never were great or very gamechanging.
Painful Truths should see an uptick in play with all the BUG fair decks running amok. Then again our engines can mostly outgrind their BUG CA. :wink:
However I still play 1 Painful Truths in the side to bring in vs Miracles and non delver BUG decks. Never too happy or too sad to see them just like what Echelon said. Just a okish CA card that needs stack interaction to interact instead of removal as compared to CA creatures we run. You know different angles of pressure on Miracles' answers = more % points in our favour. :cool:
My experience with Painful Truths was that paying 3 at sorcery speed to not effect the board state just wasn't good enough. Tireless Tracker basically replaced Truths. It hits the opponent, costs less life, and still draws cards. The ceiling on the card is just much higher, though it does require some setup.
I like you list. Decided to give it a try soon. Since I don't have those Sphere of Resistance lying around I will replace them with Thorn of Amethyst. I don't expect many elves, so I guess this is OK?Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
Maybe this deck would like to play Titania, Protector of Argoth as an additional win condition since it returns important lands, likes Karakas and has a quasi-synergy with Crop Rotation?
Arianrhod, this should probably go in the primer since it's coming up so frequently.Quote:
Originally Posted by emuhell
Titania is a fast threat but she gets answered by basically every removal spell in the format. If you are coming up against a ton of BUG decks and uninteractive combo, she's fine, but otherwise she is too vulnerable to be a reliable finisher. If you do want to play her, I'd recommend running a Sylvan Safekeeper, both to keep her alive and to give you the potential to one-round people.
You want Sphere so you can beat Aluren. Against Elves I don't think Sphere is worthwhile in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by emuhell
Titania sounds interesting.
Rather than Sphere, why not just use Lost Legacy? LL is good in a lot of matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
Abrupt Decay (44% of all decks) - noQuote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Swords to Plowshares (33%) - yes
Lightning Bolt (14%) - yes
Fatal Push (TBD) - no
(numbers due to mtggoldfish)
Although "dies to removal" is not the best argument, a 5cc Threat that dies to Bolt is annoying. My point is, that in this specific list - with the Crop Rotation toolbox - the card could be viable.
Very fast Titanias could easily happen with GSZ off a Towered Exporer to get back a Fetchland and produce a fast clock.
This means that your opening hand was land, land, Tower, Explorer, GSZ and you basically start playing Magic @turn 3 while assuming your opponent does not have a single card that can mess with your plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by emuhell
I understand what you're trying to say, but that's just wishful thinking. On turn 3 you're either dead or sure your opponent has some form of disruption.
I'm trying a bg hymn configuration based of dns' list and it feels very strong. It has a more controlling approach, but the problem is if we can reliably survive a fast delver hand. I have only played a couple games but I have to say that the crop rotation package is very underrated.
I always felt that the 2t were kinda awkward without a way to tutor them (prime time is a mediocre 6 drop against anything non miracles), but rotation changes that and offers a lot of possibilities and ways to play the game.
Nice job for having that idea, Brael.
In gb hymn is necessary I feel, it is such a strong card both against fair and unfair decks, we also have less creatures here so hymn strips away their stack/permanent interaction and opens the way for our (small number of) bombs.
What are all the viable options for the land package? I have found bog clunky in the main, I think I'm moving it in the side.
Treetop village is the only tap land in willing to play in the main; it has been so powerful (especially with rotation) in the few games I have played.
Yeah ;) thanks for pointing to reality. Of course this is just one thing that could happen - and with the addition of Crop Rotation, @DNSolver pointed out that getting to sac your Explorer to the Tower gets much more likely. Despite the nice toolbox it provides, I think this is the major upside of using Crop Rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Besides, this list does most of the things other Nic Fit lists do, which unfortunately reads sometimes like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
It's another card you need in your opener and another element your opponent can interact with to mess up your plan. Playing any card into a counter sucks, playing Crop Rotation into a counter is shooting yourself in the foot.Quote:
Originally Posted by emuhell
Crop Rotation is card disadvantage and opens you up to pretty big blowouts. Besides, when wanting to go for a lands package why not go for something that can downright beat your opponent in 1 big swing (i.e. DD combo) instead of dicking around w/ Rotation into Tower.
Maybe pulse of murasa could be a consideration for the gb list: gains a ton of life against the fastest decks (no rhino and no path can lead to tricky situations against fast delver hands) and can buy back a wastelanded maze/manland/random land.
Too cute? Probably, but Stryfo showed us that you can 5-0 a league with 3 pulses in the sideboard.
@Echelon: I was skeptic myself about rotation, but I think you should give it a try (only in GB of course). You have to cast it wisely against counters but it smooths the consistency of the deck a lot and makes possible very nice tricks such as pseudo haste dude vs walkers, ramps, finds 2t asap, is a recall in the late game with TT in play.
You were the one that liked intent a lot, and that card leads to more disastrous blowouts after all. Give it a try!
About the whole 'start playing turn 3' thing:
This is one of the problems with the Phyrexian Tower plan, IMO. If you're sacrificing Veteran to tower, you aren't pitching him to Cabal Therapy which IMO is preferable 90%+ of the time. Obviously sometimes we don't have Cabal Therapy, but planning primarily around Tower feels worse than planning primarily around Therapy, in any metagame which isn't hugely slow. The disruption from Therapy looks a lot more relevant than slamming a threat a turn earlier, especially considering that while we play high-mana game ending threats, the deck still is reasonably likely to be able to do something to affect the board state with the 2-3 mana left over after a Therapy flashback on turn two. At the end of the day, Crop Rotation is card disadvantage and you need to be getting some serious power out of it to be worth it. That means if you're Rotating for a Phyrexian Tower to sacrifice a Veteran, you need to be running a lot of powerful threats around the 4-5 mana mark which threaten to end the game in the near future, so you can actually leverage the mana advantage Tower gives you. You spent three cards (rotation, veteran, threat) on getting that threat into play a couple of turns earlier, so it needs to be good because if it gets removed you're in a pretty bad way.