So SDT has been banned... maybe won't need those mentors after all. What do people think it'll mean for us? As a 28 1-drop deck I feel it's great but I guess will depend if other decks now become viable in the meta that are stronger.
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So SDT has been banned... maybe won't need those mentors after all. What do people think it'll mean for us? As a 28 1-drop deck I feel it's great but I guess will depend if other decks now become viable in the meta that are stronger.
I think you hit the nail on the head exactly - most of the impact will come from the other ways the meta changes, and not so much from Miracles itself. To me the immediate question is whether we can deal adjust to deal with the rise of combo decks like Storm and UB Reanimator that were partly held in check by Miracles. Generally I think we are ok against their current iterations, but they might be able to streamline their lists now and get ahead of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smuggo
Yes we'll have to see how thing goes, but probably gonna be making some significant sideboard changes in response and possibly even need to slow down by mainboarding more countermagic if combo stuff comes out strongly off the back of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm72
Exquisite Firecraft is definitely leaving my sideboard now, Sulfuric Vortex might follow. :)
Exquisite yeah, but Vortex is good in a lot of matchups, like almost any deck slower than us on the play, any control decks really or anything with some lifegain potential that can put them out of range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowwarrior346
Can't believe i will never have to play against that shitty SDT again... Yeah!
Guess decks like Storm and Elves will be on the rise so back to 4x Force of Will main?
So with Miracles basically "gone" how would you describe the impact Mentor had on your games?Quote:
Originally Posted by Smuggo
I can see him beeing good against D&T, Loam and those Grixis/BUG/4c Stuff where he shus down DRS.
I agree 4 force in main might be back on the menu now just not sure what to cut for it from my list might swap it with my third Pop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny Tempel
The top ban might make harsh mentor worse, though miracles could usually easily remove it so hard to say if it impacts the card's usefulness. I'll keep trying it for a bit but might go back to running a couple of goblin guides instead. Will have to see how the meta develops now the most oppressive deck has gone.
Still I think the top ban bodes fairly well for a fast aggressive deck like this. I've found I generally fare well vs the BUG decks people seem to think will come to the fore in the post miracles world.
With SDT banned, we are free of that silly CBTop lock which made this MU particularly miserable for us.
Therefore, UR Delver is probably in line to get back to its DtB position: we have a strong mana base and can hit opponents pretty bad with PoP, we can have a strong denial plan (with both soft and hard counters + a possible way playing Stifle-Wasteland as well) and we can hit fast (with blasts and cheap hitters).
I do not think that Storm nor Elfball nor SnT decks are particularly going to be bad MUs.
I'd be more "worried" about the return of Maverick eventually or the increasing copies of Chalices here n there.
So, is anyone changing the deck much in light of no more Miracles? I am new to the deck and am personally thrilled about the Top ban as I was having troubles with the Miracles deck.
Is Pyroblast still a 2-of in the board? Still plenty of targets but less of an urgency to have multiple answers to Counterbalance?
Is Sufuric Vortex still great as a 2-of?
Do we want to up the number of counterspells in the SB or is 2 Flusterstorm + 2 Pyroblasts about right?
What about Vendilion Clique? It seems real bad against other fair decks but probably pretty damn good against the combo decks, Elves, and even D & T.
I am currently running 1 pyroblast, 1 fluster, will prob go to 2 fluster now though and keep 1 pyro.
I think pyrokinesis is worth having if elves does become a big thing, and rough//tumble is also good for that.
I'm keeping 2 sulfuric for now, I think the life-gain prevention is also really crucial for many common matchups using jitte, DRS and batterskull. And it's just good for any other durdly control decks to put a clock on them and even other delver decks if you're on the play due to our speed and damage.
I've dropped winter orb though. While still good against some other decks it's just probably not good enough without miracles around.
It's really gonna depend on the meta though and will probably be quite a while before it becomes clear what the new DTBs are.
I had yet another good run with UR Guide yesterday.
2-0 DnT
2-1 BR Reanimator
2-1 Shardless
ID with Esper Control (didn't want to play that MU to be honest)
My current list looks like this:
4 Guide/ Delver/ Swiftspear
2 Stormchaser
4 FoW/ Daze/ BS/ Ponder/ Bolt
3 Chain Lightning/ GP
2 PoP/ Forked Bolt
16 lands (3 Volc/ 9 Fetch)
SB for my local meta:
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical
1 Lavamancer
2 Fluster
2 Pierce
2 Electrickery (last minute change, had to leave the house, should be something else)
2 Vapor Snag
Is Vapor Snag because you have a lot of Turbo Depth players in your meta? I've always thought it was a weak card but it's a matchup we literally cannot win otherwise I guess.
Goblin Guide could be interesting. If decks are trying to just load up on spot removal running a million hasty low CMC creatures could be powerful. I'm not sure how well that matches up against Elves though, which seems to be poised for a comeback.
I suppose you could just kill all the elves before attacking though. Forked Bolt seems like it'll be great in the upcoming meta.
If elves really do come back, I would much prefer having Rough//Tumble + Swiftspear than guide (I always prefered Swiftspear anyway).Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMonday
Yeah, that's definitely where I'm leaning. I like Stormchaser Mage and Swiftspear too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
We have one Depths player but I use it against all the BUG decks to timewalk their Goyf or Angler. Managed to snag a Griselbrand yesterday; was quite neat. I am definitely not entirely sold on this card though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
You simply play both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
Speaking of BUG, I'm thinking of sticking Blood Moon back in my sideboard if they end up being the top deck. I've always had so-so results with it though and I'm wondering if there's anything that might be better.
More PoP/Burn. I don't think we want to go the control route, especially with a 3 cmc spell since there are good chances they will already have established a board presence already.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMonday
I like the sound of this, but I'm not sure how much more burn I can run. I've already got playsets of Bolt/Chain and the 3-1 Price/Fireblast split. I could slot one more PoP into my board but that seems a little anemic to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
I don't think more than 3 pop in the 75 is wise. There's still going to be decks that can play around it with basics and it doesn't become really good until turn 3.
3 PoP is enough indeed. I know some people have been running Blood Moon but It doesn't play with the deck's strategy at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMonday
In 2 days you'll be able to add Harsh Mentor and that might help as well since BUG decks often rely on drs/scooze/jitte to survive. Or you can go the Thunderous Wrath route since it's 25% of their life with a one mana spell.
Those kind of decks are usually very favorable matchups since they A) Have greedy manabase and B) are more geared towards the midrange/control game. Maybe you are not sending enough burn upstairs? They can rarely establish a board presence before turn 4, by which you should have already lowered their life to the 5-10 range. Using PoP early for 4 dmg is already plenty. You don't have to hold on to it for a 10 dmg blowout.
I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding, sorry. I don't usually have problems with BUG decks. I have a winning record overall against Shardless, BUG Delver and the new Leovold deck. However, if they're the biggest percentage of the field I'd prefer to have a couple sideboard cards against them even if the matchup is overall favorable.
Reading skills, I don't have them sorry! I misinterpreted what you said. But yeah, I wouldn't worry about a favorable matchup.
I'm also wondering if Bedlam is worth running without miracles. It's ok, but gets stuck in hand and often gets countered anyway, and without countertop we no longer seem to need a card with a skewed CMC.
Bedlam Reveler has sometimes been awkward in my testing but as a 1-of I find him really useful as the game drags on. Once he hits he has a huge impact. I think its still very useful as there are a lot of grindy type matchups what with all the other Delver, midrange, Stoneblade, etc. type decks.
For people having Pyrokinesis in the sb I am confused as to when that would be better than Rough/Tumble? It doesn't seem like a great idea to pitch another burn spell or creature to Pyro when you are in a grindy creature fest where Pyro would shine. Any ilumination on this?
I have been testing against quite a few random Blade decks online and that matchup seems favorable with PoP, quick pressure, removal, and cheap counters.
I don't run any Revelers in the mainboard, however I don't mind one in the sideboard. I believe it is really only worth it in grindy matchups, where you have the time to play it and sometimes need the extra push to get over the finish line.Quote:
Originally Posted by kamikaze360
As for Pyrokinesis, it is usually pretty unexpected. It being at instant speed is also a huge boon to the card. Not to mention it is free. Now with Miracles gone (I am still crying and haven't slept (exaggerating)) Elves is a pretty hot contender for a top tier deck. Pyrokinesis is really good there and against many other creature decks like Death&Taxes, Infect etc.
Just to mention probably going to update the Primer again after the new meta is solidified. Elves is definitely going to be added. Another thing to mention, Elves and Infect are pretty good matchups for UR Delver.
P.S. I want Miracles to stay on the Primer just to make a statement.
Yeah i might side bedlam reveler for those grindy games.
As for pyrokinesis it can often take out 3 or even 4 creatures vs the decks where its relevant so a decent trade for 2 cards IMO. Also rough can be a problem where you have some goblin guides or a harsh mentor on the board as it's not going to be so asymmetric in your favour.
Also instant speed of pyro means you can just use it in response to gsz or natural order being cast for example for max surprise factor.
RE: Pyrokinesis, for me the main reason I love the card is its mana cost - 0 is light-years better than 2 against things like Thalia, Port, Daze, and Spell Pierce. That combined with the asymmetry (I like to run Lavamancer and TNN) make it significantly better than Rough // Tumble to me. If I'm going up to 2 sweepers in an Elves-heavy meta, I might run one copy of each, though.
Thanks for the feedback on Pyrokinesis, that helps a lot! I may try and fit in both in the sb.
I have another noob question for you veterans of the deck. When you are playing against combo what do you usually side out for extra counterspells/interaction? The other day against Sneak and Show, for example, I realized that I think I need to leave some Chain Lightnings in the deck so as to race?
I am thinking of this kind of generic sideboard plan vs. combo decks:
- 1 Bedlam Reveler
- 2 Price of Progress
- 2 Chain Lightning
- 2 Gitaxian Probe
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 1 Spell Pierce
+ 1 Pyroblast
+ 1 Misdirection
+ 1 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Surgical Extraction
Is that over sideboarding? Should I also be bringing in Sulfuric Vortex against Griselbrand decks? Thanks for the help!
As a veteran ANT player and part time UR pilot I usually don't leave home without at least 8 cards to bring in vs. different kinds of combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by kamikaze360
That said I would never cut Probes vs. SneakShow or ANT (and don't board Needle vs. ANT) but trim down on the red spells; leaving maybe 2-3 Lightning
Bolts in the deck. I know how easy it is to beat UR with ANT especially post board where Decays and other removal spells are timewalks.
I agree, don't drop your probes. Cutting burn is fine in those matchups, between your creatures and all the other burn you are running you should be fine to take them down, if they whiff on the combo then you're pretty clear to just beat them down while they try and reassemble a hand.
Vortex is kinda slow to use in these matches, maybe on the play it could work. Vs BR reanimator you can run vapor snag.
Delverers,
I played in an 80-person Win-a-Lotus event outside of St. Louis this weekend, and I brought along UR Delver. I have some comments and questions for those of you who are more experienced with the deck than I was. So, I usually play Grixis Delver, but with no Miracles around I felt like UR Delver seemed great. Not just great. F*cking great. Here's the list I went with:
4 Delver
4 Swiftspear
4 Stormchaser
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Probe
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Tarn
2 Delta
2 Strand
2 Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
SB:
3 Pyroblast
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Surgical
2 Flusterstorm
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Submerge
1 Price of Progress
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Grafdigger's Cage
The quick summary: I annihilated Aggro Loam in round one and Jund in round two. The deck was pumping on all cylinders, and sweet sassy molassy, when this deck is good, it's good. I felt unbeatable going into round three. My next two rounds were against Shardless BUG and BUG Delver. I was mentally prepared going into this thing to feel dominant versus BUG decks, but I'm combining my comments about these decks because they had some things in common. It turns out that Fatal Push and Hymn to Tourach are really, really bad. Here's when I realized just how combo-y UR Delver plays, and a resolved Hymn was especially backbreaking. I will say my eventual loss to Shardless was honestly just a case of the bad beats and bad draws; I had this dude dead to rights on multiple occasions, with almost any burn spell being lethal enough, but my deck was showing me lands and counter magic I didn't need. Against BUG Delver, the opponent and I had pretty interactive games, and it was the most fun of the day—but sadly ended in my loss. We both kept land-light hands on the deciding game three, but my fetch mana was just awkward enough that I just couldn't do enough of what I needed while not playing around Wasteland. So I had to grab a Volc at one point early, and that hurt. At 2-2 I was just playing for fun, and I lost against a Blue Eldrazi Homebrew (think Aggro-Eldrazi splash blue for FoW and Daze) and then won against Bant Deathblade easily before dropping to make dinner with friends.
- Things I Loved: Price of Progress, and it's obviously why we play this deck. Stormchaser Mage was surprisingly great, and that evasion is so helpful. Nevertheless, I didn't see many Strixes, so I bet my tune would change otherwise. The fast starts this deck has are simply intoxicating, and when they were fast enough to force people into not playing around Daze, then I was a happy dude. Submerge out of the sideboard is fantastic. Removing a blocker and Timewalking your opponent for free is good.
- Things I Hated: If only two playsets of Scalding Tarn were legal. I hate the mana in this deck, and when the fetches don't quite line up, it's like trying to drive a Ferrari with a broken clutch. Granted, the worst-case scenario is just "Well, I guess I'll fetch Volc," but just dammit, man. I also hated every card that cost more than two mana. Granted, that's literally only TNN and Vortex in my list up there, but TNN would basically just sit there in my hand.
- Cards That Felt Unbeatable: I was so cocksure that I'd destroy BUG decks, and that damn Hymn to Tourach on turn 2 or 3 with daze protection (thanks, DRS) was just horrid. And when you don't see PoP in those games, it's a slog. Fatal Push was also an annoying and efficient answer to all our annoying and efficient threats. Jitte sucks. Chalice sucks. But I do think Smash to Smithereens is great, so I'm not overly worried. But those black cards that will start seeing more play, well, that's a reason for me to be less bullish on UR Delver.
Anyway, my main question is to ask about some SB stuff. I found this deck a bit weird when it came to sideboarding. Against the midrange BUG decks, I just did sort of the usual---take out FoW for whatever's relevant. I used to be in the habit of taking out Daze on the draw, but I'm kinda coming around to just enjoying Daze more no matter what, with FoWs being the casualty these days. FoW just seems awful for us, especially, since we need our cards so bad in general. But we're so low to the ground that I'm not sure if we just need our counter magic to protect or fend off certain cards. Do you think that compared to other Delver decks, this Delver, given it's really a counter-burn deck, needs to not board out its counter magic as nonchalantly as, say, Grixis or BUG in mirrors or attrition, midrange matchups? Fireblast and TNN were also cards that I always stared at if I was boarding in more than 4 or 5 cards. What do we like Fireblast for, and when is it a snap decision to relegate it to the board? Otherwise, against what do you most like to board out Probe?
Lastly, in terms of the build, if not TNN, then who or what? That Reveler seems just worse than TNN in terms of sitting there gathering dust, though I did notice all day that my graveyard was typically overflowing; we do cast a lot of spells, so maybe. I feel like Thunderous Wrath might do it, but it's pretty contingent even with all our cantripping.
Random question, but can I play this with only 2 volcs? I'm a miracles refugee who owns everything but the 3-4th volc.
@ IslandDelverGo: thanks for the report. Yes, FoW is a bitch, but we need the protection. Our creatures are small, and don't trade as well conpared with other Delver decks. Taking them out really depends on so much factors. Regarding Fireblast: I use it to clear the way, but mostly as a 'suprise, suprise!'-finisher. I rarely take it out. Probe on the other hand will be axed when I need more business. Same goes for PoP, when facing a deck packed with Basics. TNN is one card I haven't got the oppirtunity to play yet, but looks like a solid finisher. I will probably swap Reveler out for TNN, because I like to go for a fast kill. Reveler sometimes make you do awkward things.
All are welcome :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
Yes, you can play with only two Volcs, but it's suboptimal. Better to save up/ trade for a third Volc, that's the minimum.
Hi guys, I decided to try out UR Delver last night and ended up going 5-0 in a league. This was my list:
http://i.imgur.com/QLLdtIl.jpg
Overall the deck felt pretty sweet, it was cool to be able to throw burn at the face while also interacting on the stack. I think I'm going to try to refine this further, but honestly I don't think I'm going to change much about the main deck 60. I might swap the TNN for a 4th Stormchaser Mage, but I think TNN does warrant further testing. But overall it just felt really efficient and smooth.
Well done on your finish FZA!Quote:
Originally Posted by FZA
Just putting it out there, True-Name Nemesis has been in my list for a while. When I added Fireblast a couple months ago I took out the 4th Stormchaser and was pretty happy with how it turned out.
Honestly, the reason I feel that True-Name is good in this deck is because it is a very difficult threat to beat, let alone answer, and ends games in quick fashion if you got a decent start, all while being very castable.
With Abrupt Decay in decline, and aside from the fact that it doesn't pitch to Force of Will, I'm curious how Sulfuric Vortex would compare, for those considering a 3cc creature. Although, I think I'd rather play Grim Lavamancer over both of them, tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan
Has anyone tried making a sideboard map for this deck, in the style of the Brainstorm Show #030? The idea is that you map out a rating for every possible card in the deck in each matchup, and use that to determine how to build your sideboard (and/or tweak your maindeck numbers). Here's my attempt at doing so:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
Anyone should be able to make their own copy of this to work from. I'm sure we'll have many disagreements about my ratings, and a lot of them were just off the cuff :). In theory, each of us rating cards in matchups differently would be one root cause of variation in our lists; local metagames is the other cause.
In as far as the numbers can be trusted at all, this has led me to ponder a few ideas:
- Goblin Guide seems almost good enough to make the deck in the combo-heavy meta
- Might be worth considering running a second Fireblast, given how high it's coming up here
- None of the sideboard cards are worth maindecking, including Harsh Mentor (but Harsh Mentor does look pretty appealing in the board)
- Pithing Needle looks pretty solid in the board actually
Yeah I made sideboard map on paper that I've been meaning to type up which I can share, though it needs some revising anyway as I've changed my SB up a bit since the Top ban. I am now running 3 goblin guides in mainboard, it's just a strong early threat and if it eats a swords or bolt early on then it's IMO very valuable as you can then drop better threats with less chance of removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm72
To the guy asking about FoW and Daze above, I would say you almost always want to take out force where you don't absolutely need it. Daze is more situational but depending on how many relevant SB options you have in a matchup you probably want to keep some number of them. Since the deck can operate easily on 2 lands we can even use daze on the draw without being hurt too much by it, especially when the opponent has more expensive spells than you so you can disrupt their tempo without hurting your own. It can also be used to combo up our prowess triggers for free for very fast wins.
I appreciate the work you've put into this, a very interesting idea!Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigm72
Some quick questions:
What about Vendilion Clique? Not worth it in your opinion?
Goblin Guide + a second Fireblast seems indeed interesting. Would you suggest running the full playset of Guides or just a few copies?
What about Sudden Demise?
I will attend a smaller Tournament on saturday (MKM Series Trial i believe) with UR Delver.
My list however, is still quite a mess:
Creatures: 13
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
0-2 Goblin Guide
2-3 Stormchaser Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer
0-1 Vendilion Clique
Spells: 31
4 Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Gitaxian Probe
3-4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1-2 Fireblast
0-1 Forked Bolt
0-1 Thunderous Wrath
Lands: 16
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
Sideboard: 15
1 Divert
1 Flusterstorm
0-1 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sudden Demise/Rough Tumble
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Submerge
0-1 Pithing Needle
1 Price of Progress
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1-2 Pyroblast
0-1 Harsh Mentor
0-1 Vendilion Clique
I like all those 1-off sideboard cards alot as it gives you many powerful and cheap options.
Divert is actually great against Discard Effects (Storm, Hymn out of BUG decks etc) and opposing removal as most people won't see it coming.
The mainboard is pretty standard although i could try out 2 goblin guides by cutting 1 Stormchaser and 1 Clique and adding a second Fireblast over Thunderous Wrath.
I have no idea how the meta will look like so maybe i should cut the 4th chain lightning for a forked bolt to have better chances against Elves and D&T?
Anyone having some suggestions, especially on the creature base?