I'm guessing it's full of Griseltards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
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I'm guessing it's full of Griseltards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
All while people call for a ban of Deathrite? Interesting. People rather play vs. T1 Petal, Tomb, S&T -> Emrakul than vs. T1 Land, DRS, go..? And somehow T1 Land, Delver, go is fine..?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
I'd rather see T1 Land, anyCreature, go than T1 S&T, but that might just be me.
Thank you for describing a large part of humanity so eloquently. I suppose this statement has nothing to do with the fact that your one (paper?) deck got severely nerfed? You must be really short-sighted or extremely upset to make this statement. I cannot possibly imagine any sort of meta that would be so different online from paper that nobody would enjoy, be it SnT, other combo and/or Eldrazi infested as it may be. So please, enlighten us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
*Most playedQuote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
No, miracles was way too good. It is pretty clear, from looking at how the metagame turned out online, that miracles was, on some capacity, needed, as the legacy metagame online is basically modern with an larger card pool.Quote:
Originally Posted by UseLess
The most played decks are Show and Tell, ANT, BR Reanimator and various chalice stompy decks.
You want to do your busted thing ASAP, and make the game about as little interaction as possible.
*Also, I sold miracles in paper last november.
can i have ur cardboard and pixels plsQuote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Think I found your problem...Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
You realise Countertop was an equally busted ASAP thing? Miracles was hardly a hedge against these decks, but rather part of the same non-interactive problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
It really depends on the matchup, but there's also been a noticeable increase in kill spells among fair decks and those cards often have no text against a combo deck. It went from DRS/Decay/Discard to a mixture of DRS+SCM/Push/Bolt/K-Com/Decay (much fewer of these now). If your deck is going around with that much removal, you're going to have suspect ability to interact with combo [less discard, fewer FoW pitch cards, generally more questionable mana vs turbo Moon decks].Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
Miracles had two unhealthy effects: it made all Standstill and Blade variants unplayable (in the sense that miracles has more free wins and higher win %age), but most importantly basically everyone had to play Decay (or an uninteractive like CB, Vial, Cavern, Boseju, Chalice) - and this is no longer the case. Even if fair decks want to run all this removal, there's actually way more cards out there which can also have text vs combo, and honestly all that turbo Moon/Chalice stuff might eventually deter them from a hyper-efficient removal color and into using different cards that also have text vs the unfair.
We're kind of in a silly period where fair decks are going nuts with Terror-esque spam instead of asking themselves "what is the meta, and how should I build my deck." I think people will eventually start asking the right questions like: how's my Git. Probe matchup (SnT, Storm, Grixis Pyro), can I beat Elves, what am I doing vs Chalice/Stompy, and does everything done up to this point still have a reasonable Blade control matchup.
If only instead of sdt we banned another card... One that pushed all T1 decks equally instead of just killing the top control deck of the format...
Of course this is probably a temporary meta but damn id this SnT shitshow persist...
Isn't this just the Legacy version of aggro winning week one? Also, Goldfish has Grixis Delver as the #1 deck and BUG Delver at #4, and combined they're a larger share of the meta than ANT+Sneak (#2 and #3). I realize that their data isn't exclusively drawn from online events (and that we could be seeing a 5-0 vs. 'the field' effect), but online has a big effect on their numbers. I don't think it's time to panic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Except that aggro can be grind out, which is not the case of those decks. And yeah, pretty cool that the only other options seems to be.. Delver deck. Yeah.
All those Miracles players had to go somewhere. I saw the ones in my shop go to Show and Tell and Grixis Delver. They're the two clear 'next-up' best decks, and that's what the Standard format pros play when forced into Legacy anyway.
Are you saying that ANT & Skill and Show can't be hated out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestalim
How long have you actually been playing this format?
I will say this for SnT right now, playing Omni means it has a better chance against DnT than it use to. Still, I would want to be on the DnT side of that match most of the time.
BUG Delver still wrecks both decks if its set up properly, and while I don't have as much experience with Grixis, it seems pretty similar. Looking at 5-0 lists there seems to be a bit of a lag in the Delver players adopting the sort of aggressively anti-combo MD configurations we typically saw pre-Miracles (when things like 4 Hymn, 2 Pierce BUG Delver maindecks were common). We're still getting a lot of 5-6 spot removal spells rather than 12+ discard+counters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
What you are saying doesn't follow what I had said. Please read correctly next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
No it doesn't. Bug Delver will fall a lot against S&T or Storm. Grixis has better hate against combo and reach.Quote:
BUG Delver still wrecks both decks if its set up properly, and while I don't have as much experience with Grixis, it seems pretty similar.
Do people really have such trouble with SnT decks? Like all combo decks it is fragile as hell. If the combo is disrupted it basically does nothing.
Of course it can get that crazy t1 combo off very occasionally, but most of the time they sit there getting whacked for a turn or two, their combo gets disrupted, they spend a couple of turns trying to rebuild and by then they're dead.
It is not about the speed of the deck, but rather how resilient it is. You can't mess with it such easily, the deck can pack a lot of counter and has diversity in its build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smuggo
Oh, you are one of those...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Yes, SnT rarely has protection for their combo. :]Quote:
Originally Posted by Smuggo
They have protection sure but your average delver deck runs 8 counters mainboard and probably 11+ post board. They need a lot of the right things in hand to go off.
True, but that's why Boseiju is still relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smuggo
The matchups aren't 80/20 if that's what you mean, but they're solidly in BUG's favor. And I definitely disagree that Grixis is significantly better against either deck. The only unique cards Grixis gets against either are Blasts, which are fine but mostly come in because they're better than maindeck cards like Gurmag Angler/TNN and Lightning Bolt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestalim
You're forgetting Probe+Therapy+Pyromancer, which is the main reason to play Grixis over BUG in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I totally get that - I've played Grixis. Pyromancer+Probe+Therapy is a very powerful interaction, but it's also contingent on having all 3 pieces. Combo decks are particularly difficult to blind Therapy effectively (since they tend to just be cantripping if they aren't trying to go off) which makes even Pyromancer + Therapy only marginally better than Thoughtseize. Let's not pretend that Hymn isn't extremely potent disruption, especially when paired with countermagic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
Against 8 counters mainboard and probably 10+ post board. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Smuggo
Second this.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Speaking as a Storm player (both ANT and TES), I fear Hymn to Tourach a _lot_ more than the Probe-Therapy-Pyromancer triumvirate.
Part of the reason for this (in my experience) is that barring a lucky hand from the Grixis player, they are unlikely to have all their parts together and castable before turn three (yes, they might have been able to probe-therapy before then, but this is essentially just a Thoughtseize in most cases). By then a storm player has either gone off, or has cantripped to the point where they are pretty resilient to discard (and may well have gotten off a few discard spells of their own on the Grixis player).
Hymn to Tourach, on the other hand, regularly hits on turn two (again in my experience), where it both _always_ gets two cards (very significant for a combo deck), and is usually early enough to prevent most hand sculpting with cantrips. This, combined with the Delver deck's typically quick clock, is often enough to win the game.
For primarily this reason I have found the Hymn BUG Delver matchup to be among the most difficult of the Delver decks (considerably more so than Grixis Delver).
So, one of the more interesting (for me) aspects of the 'New Meta' is that Control variants now have to actually try to win the f'ing game, instead of sitting back on piles and piles of filtering and CounterTop lock waiting for an Entreat or a Mentor to get around to checking the box.
I really feel like some of the people who are most ingrained in 'spin top, shuffle, spin top, brainstorm, spin top, whatever, MIRACLES, win game' are suffering because they have to get back to a reasonable clock. It's painful to watch someone play Grix Delver like a draw-go control deck, and it's downright laughable how much permission they are trying to shove back into Show variants. If you want to beat elves reliably, you can't waste time not going off for 3 or 4 turns...
It's nice to see my local meta playing around with Patriot/Esper control. Yeah, they look a lot like slow midrange decks; but they grind you out in the expected manner. I enjoy that, while I haven't brought any, grave-recurrent creatures matter again [especially with Push making Grixis/Bug more attractive.]
Sadly enough, the zombardment/4c-grave guy is no longer in my area, as he could probably make his way in this meta a lot better.
Really? Is there anything currently playing this with success?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Edit - genuine surprise and genuine question.
I think people still play it as maybe a 1 off in their skill and show deck but it seems kind of bad when people are killing you turn 2-3 or you are battling against the soft counter/discard deck that also plays wasteland and a flying 3/2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
During the Miracle Era, S&T used to pack one or two boseijtu in side, as it was totally destroying the match-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Yeah I've seen Boseiju's come out when playing S&T before but not very often.
Rest in Peace Zombardment guy :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Hareruya has had 6 Legacy tournaments of at least 6 rounds since the Top ban. Do you guys want me to add them to the data I've been compiling?
I rarely see Japanese tournaments in meta data. I see no reason not to (the decks aren't that wacky), and I assume it's just harder to find, but I figured I'd ask before I added it.
Fuck yes. More numbers are always good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
I dunno if this was the thread where everybody was worried about combo taking over, but here's the latest MTGO 5-0 league decks:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...gue-2017-05-11
BUG midrange city. Also keep in mind that these are "randomly" selected, for whatever that's worth.
Looks like more people need to be playing Llawan.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
Hypodermic injection into the paper meta data--
Big Magic Open Vol.9 - Sunday Legacy, 267 players, May 4
Death & Taxes, Burn, Eldrazi, U/R Delver, U/R Delver, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Control, Reanimator Depths, Team America, Grixis Tempo, Grixis Control, Imperial Painter, Grixis Tempo, OmniTell, Mono-Red Sneak Attack, ANT
Cardbox Open Vol. 1, 137 players,
May 7
Grixis Tempo, OmniTell, U/R Delver, ANT, Esperblade, Jund, Eldrazi, Infect
53 players, May 3
Esperblade, Grixis Control, U/R Delver, Grixis Tempo, Infect, BUG unclassified, Merfolk, U/R Delver
53 players, April 29
Sneak & Show, ANT, U/R Control, Eldrazi & Taxes, 12-Post, U/R Control, ANT, Elves
43 players, April 30
U/R Delver, B/R Reanimator, Elves, Grixis Control, BWG unclassified, Grixis Tempo, Eldrazi, OmniTell
33 players, May 5
Aggro Loam, Dredge, ANT, Merfolk, Grixis Tempo, Dragon Stompy, Doomsday, Merfolk
Win A Dual 22 Tübingen, 42 players, May 7
Grixis Tempo, Team America, Aggro Loam, Grixis Tempo, Esperblade, Grixis Tempo, Infect, Sneak & Show
48 players, May 7
U/R Delver, Tin Fins, Elves, Dragon Stompy, Elves, Infect, OmniTell, Oops, All Spells, Death & Taxes, Food Chain, Eldrazi, Belcher
Added to the previous numbers from MKM Frankfurt, Axion GPT, Arcanis, Valhalla's Gate, Spellhold GPT, Circuito, Olympus Roè Volciano, Duel for Duals, and Magic Master Series
1359 total points
50 different placing archetypes in 6+ round tournaments
DTB ≥ 62.514 points
DTBs: Grixis Tempo, Sneak & Show, Infect, ANT, OmniTell, U/R Delver, Death & Taxes, Elves
Grixis Tempo: 168
Infect: 84
Sneak & Show: 83
ANT: 73
OmniTell: 70
U/R Delver: 69
Elves: 63
Death & Taxes: 64
Eldrazi: 59
Team America: 49
Bant Deathblade: 45
B/R Reanimator: 44
Esperblade: 38
Czech Pile: 37
Grixis Control: 33
Burn: 27
Aggro Loam: 26
Food Chain: 25
Maverick: 19
Merfolk: 19
Aluren: 18
Jund: 18
Eldrazi & Taxes: 14
Dragon Stompy: 13
U/R Control: 13
4c Delver: 10
U/B Reanimator: 10
BUG Leovold: 9
Canadian Thresh: 9
Esper Delver: 9
Imperial Painter: 9
Mono-Red Sneak Attack: 9
Reanimator Depths: 9
UWR Control: 9
Dredge: 8
Junk: 8
Tin Fins: 8
UWr Stoneblade: 8
Dark Depths: 7
TES: 7
12-Post: 6
Belcher: 6
Big Eldrazi: 6
BUG unclassified: 6
BWG unclassified: 6
Doomsday: 6
Nic Fit: 6
Oops, All Spells: 6
Shardless BUG: 6
UWR Delver: 6
This meta looks fucking ripe for Deadguy with a good pilot. I think my old Revoker list probably can roll that top tier