-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Small event with a similar list as previous
Inspired by Gavin Enderlin (Basic_Swamp on MTGO) I cut 1 Dismember for 1 Snuff Out but that was the only change from the previous version
2-0 UBRG Control
1-2 Chalice Post
2-1 UG Eldrazi Stompy (No chalice but with Stirrings, Hierarch, Stub)
I think Snuff Out has a lot of upsides for 0 mana but idk if I would want to play 2 because being able to overpay mana for dismember can be good and 2x copies of an uncontrollable -4 life could be a bit risky
To compensate for Gargoyle being relatively weak defensively I could see it being correct to cut the preordain and/or 1 stub for a 2nd push or a Drown in the Loch
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Ark4n has been doing well with UB Shadow in the last few days.
He got another 5-0 yesterday (or at least one, while I was tuned in).
I think Gurmag is likely the tertiary threat you generally want, unless there is some really compelling metagame factor to mitigate.
Snuff Out has been pretty good for him too.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
I think Gurmag is likely the tertiary threat you generally want, unless there is some really compelling metagame factor to mitigate.
Borrower is really popular now which is something to consider
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kombatkiwi
Borrower is really popular now which is something to consider
Ah, yeah, I think I'd be more likely to consider that a sideboard card, but I could see it being maindeck material in certain metas. Like, if you are apt to see lots of Chalice, or Depth, for example. Even so, I still think you'd want at least one Angler though.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
The slot my main deck Borrower takes is the 2nd Reanimate, still 2 anglers. Borrower is generally better in my metagame atm than reanimate.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Ah, yeah, I think I'd be more likely to consider that a sideboard card, but I could see it being maindeck material in certain metas. Like, if you are apt to see lots of Chalice, or Depth, for example. Even so, I still think you'd want at least one Angler though.
Well that's 1 way to interpret it (you can play your own Borrower competing for slots with your Angler) but what I meant was if Borrower is popular for your opponent then it makes Angler a lot worse (when your delve creature gets bounced it can be hard to replay it again)
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Another good UB Shadow showing at the Showcase challenge online, 4th place:
https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=33638&iddeck=299069
Ark4n placed well again at 17th place:
https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=33638&iddeck=299082
And finally TrueHero at 26th in the same challenge:
https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=33638&iddeck=299091
This makes me think that UB Shadow seems like a decent deck against the Breach upsurge. Breach was everywhere in this challenge.
EDIT: All of those lists are similar, maybe even to a card (I didn't get that detailed with my observations.)
1) Reanimate has been taken out for Brazen Borrower
2) Snuff Out has replaced Dismember completely
3) Drown in the Loch showed up in every list x1
4) Hymn to Tourach x4 in the sideboard was consistent across all 3 of those lists.
5) This setup can be attributed, at least in part, to the slightly different online metagame
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
I'll be headed to a weekly tonight, taking the above well-performing lists but with a few minor changes.( -2 Snuff Out/+1 Fatal Push/+1 Dismember), budget manabase, and I am going to try Umezawa's Jitte in the board. Hopefully I can pull off a win or two this week!
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
I played this list a few times for fun:
Companion
Obosh, the Preypiercer
Main
4 Brainstorm
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Death's Shadow
2 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
2 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
2 Brazen Borrower
2 Force of Negation
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Street Wraith
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Wasteland
4 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flassts
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Mystical Dispute
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Dread of Night
1 Plague Engineer
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Karakas
1 Nihil Spellbomb
I wanted to see how valuable it would be to just always have a 5-mana 6/5 as a hedge against flooding out, especially in matchups where Wasteland isn't good. Effectively doubling all your creatures' powers is an added bonus. In testing, as expected, I hardly every cast Obosh and it was pretty low-impact. It would either be a win-more or not enough. However, I was surprised how little I missed Daze and now wonder if Daze should be cut or shaved for more impactful cards.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Make 2 SB cuts, add 2x Steady Progress, you need outs to Chalice.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
I like it. And no more feel-bads when you shut off your own Dazes with proliferate. May be hard to get to 3 mana in time for this when you can't cantrip though.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
aedrew
I like it. And no more feel-bads when you shut off your own Dazes with proliferate. May be hard to get to 3 mana in time for this when you can't cantrip though.
Trying to draw mana is a better place to be than having no answer. Also can't Daze with oddball companion declared.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
UB Shadow came up in the Obosh thread under N&D
We had Dark Ritual. It does a couple things:
- accelerates out Obosh
- accelerates Angler so you can go up to 3 copies (which gives you more threats and helps turn on Stubborn Denial, compensating for lack of Daze)
- makes Street Wraith hardcastable
- helps play Dismember without paying life, if you're under the gun
- enables multi-card plays (e.g Thoughtseize x 2, Shadow)
- accelerates out 3s (SB or main) like Ashiok, Plague Engineer and Liliana
The usual drawback of Dark Ritual is it's card disadvantage and a terrible topdeck. But with Companion you always have a threat to accelerate out, and that free card makes up the card disadvantage.
A midgame Dark Ritual basically turns into Berserk on your attacking Shadow/Angler/Delver, only they don't die. If you untap and still have Obosh, that's even better.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
I can definitely see the potential of Obosh, with the obvious hesitancy being the loss of Daze. I think that is solved easily by 2x Stubborn Denial/2x Force of Negation in the maindeck.
How was Dark Ritual getting added in? I can see -2 Reanimate, but how do the other 2 copies get crammed in?
EDIT: I found the post, here is the list. Pretty cool, actually. I would never have applied Dark Ritual to Shadow, it just wasn't on my radar screen. Now it's basically enabling a better Temur Battle Rage with Obosh, allows for more copies of Gurmag, which makes Stubborn Denial better, which makes up for the lack of Daze...pretty damn cool. With no outlets for legacy currently this seems like a pipe-dream, but I'll be damned if it doesn't look spicy (and fun) as hell. I think I would probably still stick to 18 lands and just cut a Wasteland. That allows for a 2nd Force of Negation, a 4th Street Wraith, 1x Preordain, or even a 3rd Stubborn Denial.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
Bolt and Pyroblast seem great, but I don't know if they are necessary. Chalice is a bigger problem with this list, but Force of Negation helps a little with that. I'm not sure what the best Chalice answer is in odd casting costs. I suppose g2 we could sideboard in Abrade/Ratchet Bomb/Steady Progress, but I'm not sure how that works with the Companion rules.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
I can definitely see the potential of Obosh, with the obvious hesitancy being the loss of Daze. I think that is solved easily by 2x Stubborn Denial/2x Force of Negation in the maindeck.
How was Dark Ritual getting added in? I can see -2 Reanimate, but how do the other 2 copies get crammed in?
EDIT: I found the post, here is the list. Pretty cool, actually. I would never have applied Dark Ritual to Shadow, it just wasn't on my radar screen. Now it's basically enabling a better Temur Battle Rage with Obosh, allows for more copies of Gurmag, which makes Stubborn Denial better, which makes up for the lack of Daze...pretty damn cool. With no outlets for legacy currently this seems like a pipe-dream, but I'll be damned if it doesn't look spicy (and fun) as hell. I think I would probably still stick to 18 lands and just cut a Wasteland. That allows for a 2nd Force of Negation, a 4th Street Wraith, 1x Preordain, or even a 3rd Stubborn Denial.
Bolt and Pyroblast seem great, but I don't know if they are necessary. Chalice is a bigger problem with this list, but Force of Negation helps a little with that. I'm not sure what the best Chalice answer is in odd casting costs. I suppose g2 we could sideboard in Abrade/Ratchet Bomb/Steady Progress, but I'm not sure how that works with the Companion rules.
That won't work with Companion. Try Ingot Chewer vs. Chalice, perhaps?
There is also Bedevil, but that costs bunches...
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
That won't work with Companion. Try Ingot Chewer vs. Chalice, perhaps?
There is also Bedevil, but that costs bunches...
Answer all 4 Chalice in their deck (regardless of how many are in play for x=1) with an instant that draws a card: Steady Progress. Don’t splash colors that add nothing, don’t merely 1 for 1, take out all 4 copies of Chalice.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Well, took my list above to a 3-2 finish in a league. Never put Obosh on the stack. Didn't really miss Daze except for in the Sneak and Show matchup (which I sadly lost).
I might try a version with a configuration that uses Obosh for matches where Wastelands are bad but uses 2 cmc cards for other match ups.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
That won't work with Companion. Try Ingot Chewer vs. Chalice, perhaps?
There is also Bedevil, but that costs bunches...
I would probably use By Force, it's more flexible. If Reanimate was still tech in the deck, maybe Ingot Chewer would be an option. I've mostly dropped Reanimate in favor of maindeck Brazen Borrower. I also don't think something like Manic Vandal would be bad. Being a body that can chump a Rabblemaster seems like it wouldn't be irrelevant.
EDIT: Obosh doesn't cut off Borrower does it? The converted cost is in the upper right, so I think its ok, but not totally sure.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
I would probably use
By Force, it's more flexible. If Reanimate was still tech in the deck, maybe Ingot Chewer would be an option. I've mostly dropped Reanimate in favor of maindeck Brazen Borrower. I also don't think something like
Manic Vandal would be bad. Being a body that can chump a Rabblemaster seems like it wouldn't be irrelevant.
EDIT: Obosh doesn't cut off Borrower does it? The converted cost is in the upper right, so I think its ok, but not totally sure.
I am pretty sure that you can't play Borrower as Petty Theft also has a casting cost, and it is even. Split cards' mana costs are located somewhere other than the upper right-hand corner of the card, and either side of Fire//Ice can be Spell Snare'd. Not a judge, though.
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
It sounds like Obosh is much worse without Dark Ritual. UB Shadow doesn't hit 5 mana easily... which probably came up when you never put Obosh on the stack. If you didn't miss Daze though then the opportunity cost is low.
Yeah my cuts were basically 2 Reanimate, 2 Borrower. The slots could be tweaked. 4th Street Wraith is probably worth it, maybe over a land. If a non-Wasteland land can afford to go, that seems best. Wasteland seems very strong in this Lurrus/Karakas meta with greedy manabases.
The red splash is probably win-more with Bolt. Ingot Chewer seems weak. By Force and Shattering Spree answer Chalice, but Steady Progress could too and also has synergy with SB walkers. Brazen Borrower is a temporary fix but they will just recast it.
You should be able to play Borrower and use Petty Theft. The companion restriction is about the CMC of the card in your library (3), not the CMC of the spell on the stack (3 or 2). Keruga decks (cmc 3 or more) can use Borrower and cast Petty Theft.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
I am pretty sure that you can't play Borrower as Petty Theft also has a casting cost, and it is even. Split cards' mana costs are located somewhere other than the upper right-hand corner of the card, and either side of Fire//Ice can be Spell Snare'd. Not a judge, though.
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
You can play Brazen Borrower. "An adventurer card is a creature card in every zone except the stack, as well as while on the stack if not cast as an Adventure. Ignore its alternative characteristics in those cases."
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
@FTW 100% agree that Dark Ritual is non-negotiable with Obosh. Not buying the argument for the 3rd Angler, though. You don't need extra Ritual payoffs, because the 5-drop is guaranteed and because hardcasting Wraith and the 2 Gurmags already adds 6 high-cost options within the structure of the deck as is.
Re: outs for Chalice: Brazen Borrowers are fine, but I really like Rushing River here. Since we have to wait an extra turn to remove a Chalice, the chance to bounce a second hate piece is pretty useful. Red splash definitely not needed.
With easier access to BB / BBB via Ritual while dropping Daze, we're also incentivized to run the safer mana base of Island, Swamp, USea (along 3 Watery Graves).
Last point: Without Daze, I think we could shave a Wasteland and find space for 1-2 Spell Snares as additional hard counters. Otherwise, I personally still like Pierce over Stubby D.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
aedrew
Thanks. I had looked but couldn't find an answer.
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tobitzki
Not buying the argument for the 3rd Angler, though. You don't need extra Ritual payoffs, because the 5-drop is guaranteed and because hardcasting Wraith and the 2 Gurmags already adds 6 high-cost options within the structure of the deck as is.
Good point. The 3rd Angler is probably unnecessary. Its main value would be turning on Stubborn Denial (which Obosh and Wraith can't), but if you run Snare or Pierce instead then there really is no justification.
Re Chalice: Is bounce good enough? It works for combo because they plan to go off all in one turn. A deck like this will EOT bounce Chalice, untap and cast some stuff, then they play Chalice again. Is a temporary answer good enough?
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
Is a temporary answer good enough?
I mean, of all Delver decks, DS at least has the most formidable threats, so hopefully you can drop something big enough to win, or (cantrip into) Force or Thoughtseize. You wouldn't wanna bounce without a decent follow-up play in the first place.
This is obviously meta dependent, but a 3cmc proliferate spell just strikes me as super narrow as long as Bridge, Trinisphere, Blood Moon, Painter stuff, PWs, etc. are all out there too. (Didn't Shadow already go through this debate when Throne of Geth saw some play for a hot minute back in 2018?)
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tobitzki
@FTW 100% agree that Dark Ritual is non-negotiable with Obosh. Not buying the argument for the 3rd Angler, though. You don't need extra Ritual payoffs, because the 5-drop is guaranteed and because hardcasting Wraith and the 2 Gurmags already adds 6 high-cost options
within the structure of the deck as is.
Re: outs for Chalice: Brazen Borrowers are fine, but I really like
Rushing River here. Since we have to wait an extra turn to remove a Chalice, the chance to bounce a second hate piece is pretty useful. Red splash definitely not needed.
With easier access to BB / BBB via Ritual while dropping Daze, we're also incentivized to run the safer mana base of Island, Swamp, USea (along 3 Watery Graves).
Last point: Without Daze, I think we could shave a Wasteland and find space for 1-2 Spell Snares as additional hard counters. Otherwise, I personally still like Pierce over Stubby D.
Rushing River is a cool idea, especially by utilizing Wasteland as your land sacrifice where it would be otherwise dead (Snow decks, etc.) I don't think its nearly as good as Borrower though. If companions have taught us anything its that having an extra creature available outside the game, whenever you have the convenience of playing it, is very good.
@FTW: I think bounce is good enough in the Moon Stompy matchup. Bouncing Chalice for a turn puts it back into their hand where this deck can deal with it the easiest, either with Thoughtseize or a counterspell. Opening up a couple cantrips to shape the game after a bounce gives really good odds of stabilizing as well. I've been of the mindset that I am always playing a basic Island and Swamp in Shadow to help offset imbalanced Chalice matchups. Add to that additional free counters (Force of Negation) and Borrower (bounce it, then discard/counter it) and you're getting closer to an even matchup. It isn't ideal, but that matchup won't ever be ideal.
@Tobitzki: I tend to agree on Steady Progress. If this deck had a stronger emphasis on PW's then it would be synergy and card advantage alongside hosing. Without that it's just super narrow. I'd rather just play more powerful, broadly applicable sideboard cards. The Throne of Geth tech happened at the pro-Tour as well, which means they weren't going into a blind metagame. They were focused on a narrower range of decks, so that was really a metagame call.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Rushing River is a cool idea, especially by utilizing Wasteland as your land sacrifice where it would be otherwise dead (Snow decks, etc.) I don't think its nearly as good as Borrower though. If companions have taught us anything its that having an extra creature available outside the game, whenever you have the convenience of playing it, is very good.
You're totally right about Brazen Bouncer > Rushing River. I like RR also as a double tempo play in a racing situation, but ultimately it might be nice as a spicy one-of only if we want more than 2 bounce effects. It's probably correct to run 2 BBs first.
And so for me it was the other way around: As soon as I saw Lurrus I thought of Brazen Boi, thinking how insanely busted a guaranteed, pre-Adventured 3-drop with repeat super-Unearth would be.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Well, now we all know this was secretly the reason why Borrower was playable in the first place. Both halves of the card are Pauper material at best, but getting a free card is just that powerful in Magic. I wish WotC had known that before Ikoria...
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
So Lurrus and Zirda are out...does this mean Obosh is more playable now?
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Well, I'm still not sure about a 5 drop creature in a deck that otherwise tries everything it can to never have 5 lands in play. We have the lowest mana curve in Legacy with every standard maindeck card costing either zero or 1 total mana to cast...
Given how unlikeiy it is for us to cast it I don't think it's quite worth losing Daze and all of the somewhat efficient answers to Chalice of the Void in the sideboard. Everything else I think is easily replaceable and wouldn't be worth more than having a guaranteed 5-drop to cast every now and then. What do people play over Daze in Obosh builds? Pierce/Snare/Stubborn?
I've also seen/heard about Dark Ritual builds but I don't like that idea personally. Dark Ritual is practically a blank piece of cardboard outside of casting Obosh. And Obosh is just a bad card by itself, because it's only good when you already have big Shadows getting through anyway. It's not like a 6/5 for 5 is was any good in Legacy. It creates a deck with two different plans that don't really synergize with each other. Half a tempo deck with 4 dead cards, half a ramp into Obosh deck that's not even good without the first half, and most importantly Obosh doesn't solve any of the issues big Shadows usually have. They don't have issues with too low power... they have issues getting through Strix/Coatl/TNN/Pyromancer and Oko. Maybe builds with Berserk could make better use of Obosh, not sure.
No matter how you slice it, this deck loses to anything Snowko throws at it when it resolves, so I think the only niche it still has is being fast, tempo-based and super mana efficient to go under more powerful things. I've been playing a list which is more focused on leveraging Shadow as a card and being as streamlined and efficient as possible, with Thought Scours over Delvers (otherwise pretty standard). I think it's better than the standard Delver builds right now.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Izor
Well, I'm still not sure about a 5 drop creature in a deck that otherwise tries everything it can to never have 5 lands in play. We have the lowest mana curve in Legacy with every standard maindeck card costing either zero or 1 total mana to cast...
Given how unlikeiy it is for us to cast it I don't think it's quite worth losing Daze and all of the somewhat efficient answers to Chalice of the Void in the sideboard. Everything else I think is easily replaceable and wouldn't be worth more than having a guaranteed 5-drop to cast every now and then. What do people play over Daze in Obosh builds? Pierce/Snare/Stubborn?
I've also seen/heard about Dark Ritual builds but I don't like that idea personally. Dark Ritual is practically a blank piece of cardboard outside of casting Obosh. And Obosh is just a bad card by itself, because it's only good when you already have big Shadows getting through anyway. It's not like a 6/5 for 5 is was any good in Legacy. It creates a deck with two different plans that don't really synergize with each other. Half a tempo deck with 4 dead cards, half a ramp into Obosh deck that's not even good without the first half, and most importantly Obosh doesn't solve any of the issues big Shadows usually have. They don't have issues with too low power... they have issues getting through Strix/Coatl/TNN/Pyromancer and Oko. Maybe builds with Berserk could make better use of Obosh, not sure.
No matter how you slice it, this deck loses to anything Snowko throws at it when it resolves, so I think the only niche it still has is being fast, tempo-based and super mana efficient to go under more powerful things. I've been playing a list which is more focused on leveraging Shadow as a card and being as streamlined and efficient as possible, with Thought Scours over Delvers (otherwise pretty standard). I think it's better than the standard Delver builds right now.
Are you playing more Gurmags because of Scour? Maindeck Borrowers?
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Izor
Dark Ritual is practically a blank piece of cardboard outside of casting Obosh.
Not true. (see my above post): Fist of all, the statement doesn't make much sense, because Obosh is guaranteed, and second: we have Gurmags and Street Wraiths to cast within the established shell and can bring in 3cmc bombs like Lily, Plague Engineer, Ashiok and your choice of Phyrexian Arena or Infernal Contract postboard. As a matter of fact, Dark Ritual makes more reliable T2 Anglers than Thought Scour. A 6/5 that's Bolt-, Decay-, and Push-proof is nothing to sneeze at in Legacy.
The big loss here is really just Daze. And the nightmare MU remains Tundra/Swords, but I really don't see how going down threats and adding a bad cantrip helps there. As Dead of Winter currently sees more play than Terminus, I'd rather add big beaters hoping to overwhelm their 1-for-1 removal before they can turn DoW into a blowout.
To me the question is still: Without Daze do we move towards midrange (Oko) or aggro (more threats, e.g. Porcelain Legionnaire, Knight of Ebon Legion, etc.).
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
If you’re playing Dark Rit, the best cheese is turn 1 Last Hope and rush for ult.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tobitzki
Not true. (see my above post): Fist of all, the statement doesn't make much sense, because Obosh is guaranteed, and second: we have Gurmags and Street Wraiths to cast within the established shell and can bring in 3cmc bombs like Lily, Plague Engineer, Ashiok and your choice of Phyrexian Arena or Infernal Contract postboard. As a matter of fact, Dark Ritual makes more reliable T2 Anglers than Thought Scour. A 6/5 that's Bolt-, Decay-, and Push-proof is nothing to sneeze at in Legacy.
The big loss here is really just Daze. And the nightmare MU remains Tundra/Swords, but I really don't see how going down threats and adding a bad cantrip helps there. As Dead of Winter currently sees more play than Terminus, I'd rather add big beaters hoping to overwhelm their 1-for-1 removal before they can turn DoW into a blowout.
To me the question is still: Without Daze do we move towards midrange (Oko) or aggro (more threats, e.g. Porcelain Legionnaire, Knight of Ebon Legion, etc.).
Thought Scour is as fast as DRit at rushing Anglers. DRit is +2 mana, Scour is +2 cards in yard. Given that the card you draw off it could be the zero mana spell you needed in addition to cast Angler it is actually true to say that Scour is faster than DRit at that.
I'm also not running Scour because it's a great cantrip, it's mostly there to find Shadows faster, which is the only card in this deck that makes it Legacy playable. If you mill it you can Reanimate it. I cut the Delvers for them because of how bad Delver is in this deck. Scour has definitely been better than Delver. I think you need to play a turn 1 play in Delver's place once you cut it, because Daze gets too much worse when you don't have a turn 1 play.
I get that you can cast 3-drops on turn 1 with DRit. That's a fine play for Pox, which plays Hymns and several other ways to get card advantage after that turn 1 CA loss. In a tempo deck a one-time +2 mana isn't worth being a full card down, especially when you also play 5 Forces that 2-for-1 yourself. If that was even remotedly good you'd see people play Rite of Flames in UR Delver too, but you don't.
Don't get me wrong, cutting threats does indeed not help the Tundra matchup. In all honesty, and I've said that before, when you currently choose to register a Shadow deck in Legacy you're hoping to dodge Snowko or you lose. Shadow decks cannot beat it under normal circumstances and pretending to get enough percentage points with any alteration of the Shadow plan is wishful thinking. Their entire deck is super anti-Shadow (Coatl, Plow, Oko) and your deck is geared towards making Shadow good and mediocre at anything else. It just can't work.
Daze is hands down one of the best cards in UB Shadow. The more aggressive and low curve you are the better it gets of course, but in the shells that maximize it it's irreplaceable.
I think if you're trying to make DRit into Obosh work you should probably cut blue and play a Pox-style list with Shadows, Anglers and Obosh as its win conditions. I'm not expecting UB Obosh Shadow to get any noticeable results, and so far I think there have been none.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Izor
Thought Scour is as fast as DRit at rushing Anglers. DRit is +2 mana, Scour is +2 cards in yard. Given that the card you draw off it could be the zero mana spell you needed in addition to cast Angler it is actually true to say that Scour is faster than DRit at that.
I'm also not running Scour because it's a great cantrip, it's mostly there to find Shadows faster, which is the only card in this deck that makes it Legacy playable. If you mill it you can Reanimate it. I cut the Delvers for them because of how bad Delver is in this deck. Scour has definitely been better than Delver. I think you need to play a turn 1 play in Delver's place once you cut it, because Daze gets too much worse when you don't have a turn 1 play.
I get that you can cast 3-drops on turn 1 with DRit. That's a fine play for Pox, which plays Hymns and several other ways to get card advantage after that turn 1 CA loss. In a tempo deck a one-time +2 mana isn't worth being a full card down, especially when you also play 5 Forces that 2-for-1 yourself. If that was even remotedly good you'd see people play Rite of Flames in UR Delver too, but you don't.
Don't get me wrong, cutting threats does indeed not help the Tundra matchup. In all honesty, and I've said that before, when you currently choose to register a Shadow deck in Legacy you're hoping to dodge Snowko or you lose. Shadow decks cannot beat it under normal circumstances and pretending to get enough percentage points with any alteration of the Shadow plan is wishful thinking. Their entire deck is super anti-Shadow (Coatl, Plow, Oko) and your deck is geared towards making Shadow good and mediocre at anything else. It just can't work.
Daze is hands down one of the best cards in UB Shadow. The more aggressive and low curve you are the better it gets of course, but in the shells that maximize it it's irreplaceable.
I think if you're trying to make DRit into Obosh work you should probably cut blue and play a Pox-style list with Shadows, Anglers and Obosh as its win conditions. I'm not expecting UB Obosh Shadow to get any noticeable results, and so far I think there have been none.
I follow the logic of playing Scour, so does that mean you could support 4 Gurmag Anglers?
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
In slower games I do get to cast the second Angler pretty often, though it's still a very bad card to draw in multiples early. I haven't tried 4 yet, though 3 is perfectly doable, so 4 shouldn't be impossible either outside of the small percentage of cases where you draw the third and never get to brainstorm it away.
My current list is very good against anything that doesn't have Plows or Decays, you could say I'm trying to leverage the deck's strengths instead of trying to patch up weaknesses which I think can't really be fixed without an immense investment of main and side slots. I'm trying to play the TSeize/Hymn/Daze/FoW/Wasteland game to hopefully run the opp out of cards before I drop a Shadow and swing twice for the win while they topdeck more lands than me. That's not reliable, though neither is diluting your deck with more expensive midrange cards that end up losing to their midrange cards anyway.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Izor
Thought Scour is as fast as DRit at rushing Anglers. DRit is +2 mana, Scour is +2 cards in yard. Given that the card you draw off it could be the zero mana spell you needed in addition to cast Angler it is actually true to say that Scour is faster than DRit at that.
This whole argument might be obsolete after Monday's potential Companion-nerf, but just for the record: Your only line here is T1 Scour into T2 Angler with exactly 2 fetches (leaving out free spells for the sake of argument). Otherwise TS equals +3 delve cards but -1mana while DR is +1card +2mana. For Ritualing out a T2 Angler, we can T1 Thought Seize/Ponder +1 Fetch, or T1 Delver +2 Fetches (also not counting Forces or Wraiths). I'm no Frank Karsten, but it seems at the very least a wash, just that we're actually doing something useful T1.
Regarding lack of results: Well, no version of Shadow has been putting up results since Ikoria, as far as I know, but the way meta has evolved since Cat & Fox came and went, this is hardly proof that Obosh isn't worth dabbling around with. The fact is noone takes Shadow into an online meta full of Snow. My point about Dark Ritual stands: It's never dead because Companion, there are 6-9 additional Ritual payoffs in the shell as is, plus 3-4 sideboard bombs, and the inherent card disadvantage is offset by ... Companion.
Where I'm not arguing is Daze; perhaps it really is the indispensable MVP here.
-
Re: [Primer] UB Death's Shadow
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tobitzki
This whole argument might be obsolete after Monday's potential Companion-nerf, but just for the record: Your only line here is T1 Scour into T2 Angler with exactly 2 fetches (leaving out free spells for the sake of argument). Otherwise TS equals +3 delve cards but -1mana while DR is +1card +2mana. For Ritualing out a T2 Angler, we can T1 Thought Seize/Ponder +1 Fetch, or T1 Delver +2 Fetches (also not counting Forces or Wraiths). I'm no Frank Karsten, but it seems at the very least a wash, just that we're actually doing something useful T1.
Regarding lack of results: Well, no version of Shadow has been putting up results since Ikoria, as far as I know, but the way meta has evolved since Cat & Fox came and went, this is hardly proof that Obosh isn't worth dabbling around with. The fact is noone takes Shadow into an online meta full of Snow. My point about Dark Ritual stands: It's never dead because Companion, there are 6-9 additional Ritual payoffs in the shell as is, plus 3-4 sideboard bombs, and the inherent card disadvantage is offset by ... Companion.
Where I'm not arguing is Daze; perhaps it really is the indispensable MVP here.
I did the math wrong, it's true that DRit is essentially +1 on Thought Scour. However, you don't need to waste your turn 1 on Scour necessarily. You can turn 1 fetch into Ponder/TSeize (2 in yard), turn 2 fetch into Scour (6 in yard) to cast Angler anyway. It doesn't work with Delver, but I'm not playing that anyway. And it does require 2 fetches, but I play 9-10, so it's often doable. Especially when Force/Daze/Wraith/Snuff work their way into the equation.
Classic CFB UB Shadow has put up a few results on MTGO since Ikoria, though very few. As I said, the deck is terrible against the number 1 deck in the format and thus just not optimal to play at the moment. I play it mainly for fun, but wouldn't register it for any tournaments.
