[Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

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Originally Posted by Fox

Surgery = Invasive Surgery. Not Surgical.

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Yes, Invasive Surgery does not work in a deck that cannibalizes its own graveyard (2 Murktide + 2 Kroxa) and lacks DRC self-mill (0 DRC). The Dressnought player wouldn't have Delirium.

With Sailors' Bane instead, the deck would have an easier time supporting Delirium for Invasive Surgery. Sailor's Bane would make the Plow/Ending matchup much better. Instead of trying to strip their removal (via Surgery or exile-mill), play a threat they can't remove. TNN works too, but Bane counts to 20 much faster. That build would need 4 DRC to fuel Sailor's Bane, and then has an added benefit of supporting some SB Surgery if you want it. It could also cut Kroxa and black for cleaner mana. But it would lose harder to Chalice @ 1.

ThrabenU has been playing around with Dreadnought in other colors.

VakaNought in BW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TapEmR5vQcA

//Lands: 20
4 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Silent Clearing

//Creatures: 24
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hunted Horror
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hushbringer
4 Strict Proctor
4 Eater of Days

//Spells: 12
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

//Artifacts: 4
4 Torpor Orb

//Sideboard: 15
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
3 Deafening Silence
2 Plague Engineer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Opposition Agent


This was predictably bad and too 1-dimensional.

Eater of Days is not even worth cheating out: 4-mana 9/8 vs Murktide Regent and Marit Lage at less mana. The deck has other glaring problems like overloading on redundant Torpor Orbs, no maindeck removal, limited interaction with opponent's strategy, no protection from topdeck removal, and no way to reduce draw variance. The video has a lot of 12/12s dying and then nothing.

After watching that, I thought the meme could be preserved but improved with:
-4 Eater
-4 Proctor
-3 Torpor
-2 Silent Clearing
+4 Mother of Runes (protect Dreadnought and Bob)
+4 Swords to Plowshares (maindeck removal)
+2 Scroll of Fate (better enabler)
+2 Urza's Saga (threat & tutor Dreadnought)
+1 Currency Converter / Relic of Progenitus (other Saga target)


Coincidentally, Phil recently moved in that direction with this mono W build from the 5-0 dump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPAeCR5LGfI
Mono W Nought (only made 2-3 in the video)

//Lands: 23
4 Urza's Saga
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Plains
2 Karakas
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ancient Den

//Creatures: 23
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hushbringer
4 Tocatli Honor Guard
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Ethersworn Canonist

//Artifacts: 10
4 Aether Vial
1 Pithing Needle
1 Shadowspear
1 Torpor Orb
3 Scroll of Fate

//Spells: 4
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Torpor Orb
1 Scroll of Fate
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Deafening Silence
2 Cataclysm


Compared to the BW version this upgrades to Scroll of Fates, Mom protection, maindeck StP, Sagas to find Dreadnought, no multiple Torpors, and no Eater. It also goes heavy on mana denial (Waste + Port + Thalia + Vial) to try to out-tempo with Dreadnought. It has the Aether Vial trick with 2 Dreadnoughts, although a 3-for-1 12/12 probably isn't worth it. Vial seems unnecessary card disadvantage if the manabase is cleaned up to have more reliable white.

I'm surprised by all the 1-of enchant/artifacts but no Enlightened Tutor in the 75 to help find them. Without some extra tutor or card draw, the deck lacks threat density. There are a number of situations where Wasteland turns off Saga tutor, then the deck can't do anything unless it topdecks Dreadnought, flooded with 1/x dorks. More threat density and card draw seem good. It's awkward that Recruiter of the Guard/Ranger-Captain of Eos don't work. Karn, the Great Creator is possible with Tomb mana.


Maybe a hybrid of the 2 could work. It won't be as competitive as other Dreadnought decks, but it could have meme value.


//Creatures: 20
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hunted Horror
4 Hushbringer
4 Dark Confidant

//Spells: 14
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
3 Hymn to Tourach

//Artifacts: 5
1 Currency Converter
1 Torpor Orb
3 Scroll of Fate

//Lands: 21
3 Urza's Saga
4 Marsh Flats
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Scrubland
4 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Castle Locthwain
1 Karakas


This way you shave a lot of the redundancy and dead draws. More room for disruption/protection, more threat density, card draw, and ways to convert redundant cards into value.

When you're down on 2c, it's best to play March over Ending (even if you run Currency Converter). The issues that list will have with Ensnaring Bridge are pretty concerning. Still have a lot of redundant Torpor Orb effects, and not playing blue has a significant cost. It's fine to meme, but you should really be getting off the Dreadnought-combat train; something else needs to be happening. You also need to pick a more frequent matchup to win than Thassa...so like let's try and focus on helpless decks like Tomb/Chalice, Loam/Mox, and Delver. It's not that difficult to carry over reasonable and maybe-reasonable matchups vs Cavern/Vial and Elves. There's still massive problems vs tier 1 (Uro, MindTwister) and spell-based combo, but if you want to meme do something like this:

4x Vista
4x Marsh Flats
3x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Scrubland
2x Saga
1x Wasteland
1x Volrath's (or Field, splitting basics on snow)
1x Karakas

4x Nought
4x Qarsi High Priest
4x Sultai Emissary
2x Nalia De'Arnise
2x Timeless Dragon (note how we met x+2 rule)
1x Grief
1x Solitude
1x Bloodghast

2x Kaya 3cmc

2x Plow
2x Bloodchief's Thist
2x Damn
2x Cling
2x Entomb
1x Sevinne's
1x E Tutor
1x Darkblast

2x Currency Converter
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Expedition Map
1x Scroll of Fate
1x Bridge from Below

SB:
2x Voidwalker
2x Oppo Agent
2x Ashiok, Dream Render
1x Stony Silence
1x Torpor Orb
1x Silent Gravestone
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Cursed Scroll
1x Ethersworn
1x Powder Keg
1x Mastery of the Unseen
1x Humility

It would be pretty easy to run a single Cavern of Souls or even a Castle Ardenvale if needed. Just note the difference between Qarsi and Mother of Runes: this deck doesn't actually care about removal and unlike Mother, Qarsi makes Noughts rather than flooding you away from making Noughts...and the whole time, it's not like this deck has to actually make a 12/12 to win. The deck has plenty to do on 1 and 2 mana, as a good number of cmc1 plays can utilize the 2nd mana. If needed Dauthi can be moved around to increase 2cmc plays, and ofc it works with Nalia. If you wanted more of the tribal stuff, flip-Lilly, Nullpriest of Oblivion, and Ayli all work, but this seems regressive.

In terms of the matchups you have: the ability to develop mana with basics vs Wasteland, the ability to beat Blood Moon (note how little reliance there is on Saga, and how without Saga the targets aren't garbage like Shadowspear), enough anti-Chalice (Kaya, >1 cmc removals, Saga find Currency to flush 1-drops, Scroll, option for Cavern, and the SB stuff), enough anti-Delver with kill spells and Timeless, and enough kill spells to troll creature-feature decks like Vial and Elves. Kaldra might be a little annoying, but Qarsi does fine vs the exile after trample damage is denied trigger. You get an achievement badge for obliterating all Kaldra's damage -> sacrifice blocking Nought to Qarsi before exile -> put Nought on top with Volrath's -> manifest same Nought.

The biggest problem in BW is that you know Arguel's Bloodfast is CA + life-loss for Shadow + Diamond Valley later, Nought and Shadow are cmc 1, and Orzhov Charm sees cmc1. We're mostly just waiting for playable "life gained = life drained" effect (preferably on a land).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

When you're down on 2c, it's best to play March over Ending (even if you run Currency Converter). The issues that list will have with Ensnaring Bridge are pretty concerning. Still have a lot of redundant Torpor Orb effects, and not playing blue has a significant cost. It's fine to meme, but you should really be getting off the Dreadnought-combat train; something else needs to be happening. You also need to pick a more frequent matchup to win than Thassa...so like let's try and focus on helpless decks like Tomb/Chalice, Loam/Mox, and Delver.

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Who is playing ensaring bridge right now? Red prison has dropped it. Killing a 1 drop on t1 is way more important.

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

Who is playing ensaring bridge right now? Red prison has dropped it. Killing a 1 drop on t1 is way more important.

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Legacy is and will always be a format about completing the checklist. Now this non-blue stuff will always fail the most important part of the checklist b/c they can't target all tier 1-1.5 decks, which is what makes it a meme deck. The second part of the checklist is essential effects like not dying to Goyf (aka MurkGoyf, and this includes a plan vs Daze), yard combo, spell-based combo, SnT, Thassa, Marit Lage, untargetables, go-wide, simple lock pieces (Chalice, E-Bridge), and so on.

You can get away with a lot in legacy leagues b/c it's fake magic (boosted yolo-combo numbers), but you're turbodead if you ever invest in "I get completely dumpstered" by something simple on the checklist like E-Bridge. You don't want to play that anywhere near a local paper meta, which means you've just sinkholed yourself to the tune of $350 per Scrubland away from a competitive outlet.

Let's recall how paper legacy works:
-Burn is cheap, they can't beat SnT, they play 2x Bridge
-Red Tomb/Chalice is fairly affordable, they will Bridge you to farm easy win %.
-it costs $20 for anyone else to target you.

If you were playing online, you can't help but point out how pathetic that league went against UR Delver...a massively overplayed deck, and easily one of Stiflenought and Dreadstill's easiest matchups.

When you aren’t playing the xerox suite or a toolbox deck, you have already given up the ability to answer everything. Presumably for efficiency. Thus he should play the more efficient card. The decklist with ending and 1 plateau will be miles better.

A budget conscious red prison player is going to play the better more aggressive versions, rather than quad karn quad Chandra. You don’t have to return every serve to win a game of tennis, just more than your opponents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

Who is playing ensaring bridge right now? Red prison has dropped it. Killing a 1 drop on t1 is way more important.

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Karn, the Great Creator decks. Karn Forge. Blue artifacts. Curses.

That said, my plan was to board in an Underground Sea or a triland to get the 3rd color for Ending. Forgot to post a SB. Or you could even run 1 main.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

The second part of the checklist is essential effects like not dying to Goyf (aka MurkGoyf, and this includes a plan vs Daze), yard combo, spell-based combo, SnT, Thassa, Marit Lage, untargetables, go-wide, simple lock pieces (Chalice, E-Bridge), and so on.

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It's not hard to address those with the other 15 cards (SB).

Example:
2 Plague Engineer
2 Sudden Edict
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Underground Sea


Thassa -> maindeck engine already hates it out
value creatures -> maindeck engine already hates it out
Goyf/Murktide -> 4x StP + 2 Edict + Relic (1 cmc or Split Second get around Daze)
Marit Lage -> 4x StP + 2 Edict + Karakas
untargetables -> 2 Edict or make bigger threat
GY combo -> 2 Surgical + Ashiok + Kaya + Relic
spell-based combo -> 8 Discard + 2 Canonist
go wide -> 2 Plague Engineer + EE + Liliana
Chalice -> maindeck Ending
Bridge -> Ending with 3rd color + EE with 3rd color + Kaya reach

That leaves a big weakness to OmniTell, but it's only 1 deck that sees less play than other combos, and there's still discard to fight it.

The deck will still struggle to be good, but it should at least have the tools to function and do the meme. The problem with the other builds was they were getting blown out before they could even do the thing.

Like Reeplcheep said, a BW version needs to be aggressive and proactive. It doesn't have blue so long-term card quality and card advantage is inferior for a control game. The manifest strategy seems more versatile but also slower and less reliable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

ThrabenU has been playing around with Dreadnought in other colors.

VakaNought in BW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TapEmR5vQcA

//Lands: 20
4 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Silent Clearing

//Creatures: 24
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hunted Horror
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hushbringer
4 Strict Proctor
4 Eater of Days

//Spells: 12
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

//Artifacts: 4
4 Torpor Orb

//Sideboard: 15
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
3 Deafening Silence
2 Plague Engineer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Opposition Agent


This was predictably bad and too 1-dimensional.

Eater of Days is not even worth cheating out: 4-mana 9/8 vs Murktide Regent and Marit Lage at less mana. The deck has other glaring problems like overloading on redundant Torpor Orbs, no maindeck removal, limited interaction with opponent's strategy, no protection from topdeck removal, and no way to reduce draw variance. The video has a lot of 12/12s dying and then nothing.

After watching that, I thought the meme could be preserved but improved with:
-4 Eater
-4 Proctor
-3 Torpor
-2 Silent Clearing
+4 Mother of Runes (protect Dreadnought and Bob)
+4 Swords to Plowshares (maindeck removal)
+2 Scroll of Fate (better enabler)
+2 Urza's Saga (threat & tutor Dreadnought)
+1 Currency Converter / Relic of Progenitus (other Saga target)


Coincidentally, Phil recently moved in that direction with this mono W build from the 5-0 dump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPAeCR5LGfI
Mono W Nought (only made 2-3 in the video)

//Lands: 23
4 Urza's Saga
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Plains
2 Karakas
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ancient Den

//Creatures: 23
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hushbringer
4 Tocatli Honor Guard
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Ethersworn Canonist

//Artifacts: 10
4 Aether Vial
1 Pithing Needle
1 Shadowspear
1 Torpor Orb
3 Scroll of Fate

//Spells: 4
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Torpor Orb
1 Scroll of Fate
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Deafening Silence
2 Cataclysm


Compared to the BW version this upgrades to Scroll of Fates, Mom protection, maindeck StP, Sagas to find Dreadnought, no multiple Torpors, and no Eater. It also goes heavy on mana denial (Waste + Port + Thalia + Vial) to try to out-tempo with Dreadnought. It has the Aether Vial trick with 2 Dreadnoughts, although a 3-for-1 12/12 probably isn't worth it. Vial seems unnecessary card disadvantage if the manabase is cleaned up to have more reliable white.

I'm surprised by all the 1-of enchant/artifacts but no Enlightened Tutor in the 75 to help find them. Without some extra tutor or card draw, the deck lacks threat density. There are a number of situations where Wasteland turns off Saga tutor, then the deck can't do anything unless it topdecks Dreadnought, flooded with 1/x dorks. More threat density and card draw seem good. It's awkward that Recruiter of the Guard/Ranger-Captain of Eos don't work. Karn, the Great Creator is possible with Tomb mana.


Maybe a hybrid of the 2 could work. It won't be as competitive as other Dreadnought decks, but it could have meme value.


//Creatures: 20
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hunted Horror
4 Hushbringer
4 Dark Confidant

//Spells: 14
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
3 Hymn to Tourach

//Artifacts: 5
1 Currency Converter
1 Torpor Orb
3 Scroll of Fate

//Lands: 21
3 Urza's Saga
4 Marsh Flats
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Scrubland
4 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Castle Locthwain
1 Karakas


This way you shave a lot of the redundancy and dead draws. More room for disruption/protection, more threat density, card draw, and ways to convert redundant cards into value.

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I love Thraben U's videos.

And I absolutely love your BW Vaka Nought list.

I am wondering if it would be improved by a light blue splash, replacing some of the StPs and Endings with Brainstorm and having the StPs in the board



Alternatively perhaps by leaning heavier on Dark Ritual and blacks disruptive elements.

I was inspired by Phil's awesome Red Death list which demonstrates just how strong Opposition Agent can be... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5HyjBPZ_JU

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Opposition Agent
4 Hushbringer
4 Dreadnought

2 Sudden Edict
2 StP
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Tocatl Honor Guard
1 Shadowspear
1 Pithing Needle

4 Urza's Saga
17 BWr Lands

SB:
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Plague Engineer
2 Torpor Orb
2 Tocatl Honor Guard
1 Scroll of Fate
1 Liliana the Last Hope
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus

If you're going to meme out play Coco and live the Honorguard+Dreadnought instant speed dream.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

I love Thraben U's videos.

And I absolutely love your BW Vaka Nought list.

I am wondering if it would be improved by a light blue splash, replacing some of the StPs and Endings with Brainstorm and having the StPs in the board

Alternatively perhaps by leaning heavier on Dark Ritual and blacks disruptive elements.

I was inspired by Phil's awesome Red Death list which demonstrates just how strong Opposition Agent can be...

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So I noticed a few things from Phil's games where Dreadnought kept losing

1) He made the 12/12, but it died a lot (or Hushbringer dies and opponent gets 2-for-1)
He could only make sorcery-speed Dreadnoughts and could not protect them. Black discard wasn't enough protection.
-> Mother of Runes adds protection for Dreadnought/Hushbringer or forces out removal
-> Scroll of Fate allows End Step instant Dreadnought to play around 2-for-1s or sorcery removal

2) He flooded on Hushbringer effects without enough threats to make them good
The 1/x bodies are very bad on their own. Slow clock. Do not trade with much. It was too easy for opponent to hate out Saga, then the deck falls short on threats.
-> Hunted Horror probably needed to have high enough threat density to justify Hushbringers
-> Scroll converts redundant Hushbringer effects into threats
-> Currency Converter converts redundant Hushbringer effects into cards & threats

3) Ran out of relevant cards.
Dark Ritual is fast but card disadvantage. Unless you have the perfect opening 7, it increases risk of blowout by opponent's disruption.
-> Dark Confidant and Castle Locthwain draw cards
-> Scroll of Fate converts bad draws into threats
-> Currency Converter converts bad draws into cards and threats

4) Unstable mana got punished.
Wasteland, Blood Moon, Back to Basics hurt even his mono W deck due to few basics and limited access to white mana.
-> Play stable mana with many basics. The lands matter.

If you splash blue or go WBr, what are the lands? Lands shouldn't be an afterthought. The lands matter.

Maybe Swords in the SB could work. But Phil had many matches that needed removal.

Played UG dressnought tonight to 1-2.
Conclusions: The deck grinds hard and I won all 3 G1s. IMO when you're 3-0 in G1 and 1-4 otherwise you have something, you just need to refine the side. And my Side is quite a mess.
Like always I played what I owned, so no trops yet.

//Dressnought Package
4 phyrexian dreadnought
3 uro, titan of nature's wrath
4 dress down
4 stifle
//Xerox Support
4 ledger sgredder
4 force of will
2 force of negation
3 sailors' bane
2 brazen borrower
4 consider
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
//Land
4 misty rainforest
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
4 breeding pool
1 mysric sanctuary
3 island
2 wasteland
//Sideboard
4 leyline of the void
2 submerge
2 gilded drake
4 leyline of sanctity
1 Archmage Charm
1 Commandeer
1 Lazotep plating

r1 Storm:
g1 Early dreadnought into 3 forces. EZ G2/3 They cast veil and wheeled away my stifles into trash
r2 Esper Stoneblade:
g1 HAd the permission for the exile effects and just kept recasting uro. g2 had less permission and died. g3 bad keep didn't work out at all
r3 Grixis Control
G1/2 Shredder Fed Uro which Fed Bane and just overwhelmed their cards. Only a handful of cards can answer a bane and they had only Sudden Edict. They ran Hidestugu Consumes all, but while it was good at killing dreadnoughts it was bad at stopping banes.

Anyways:
I need 4 Veils in the SB, how did I overlook that? Dunno what else. I'm out of step with legacy and don't know what to tune for.

Interesting deck. I like how Ledger Shredder + 12 cantrips support both Uro and Sailor's Bane.

Unlike most Stiflenoughts you have higher threat density: 16 creatures
Dreadnought's the only 2-for-1
Sailors Bane is good against the spot removal that punishes Stiflenought
Uro's good against non-exiling removal, including stuff that hurts Sailors Bane
Threat variety should mean less weakness to removal decks.

I like the concept!

The manabase and SB are a mess though. Those should be the easiest places to gain win % without any changes to the core idea.

//Lands: 18
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Breeding Pool
4 Island
2 Forest
2 Wasteland

4 Breeding Pool is overkill unless you're on Death's Shadow. To get more access to green, use basics and Vista instead. Less suicidal to your life total. More stable against nonbasic hate.

Cut Mystic Sanctuary too. It's only good in some unique cases.
UR uses it with Expressive Iteration + Daze as a draw engine. You don't have those.
UWx can use it to put Terminus on top of library at instant speed, or get back copies of other good white removal. You don't have those.
Here it's just putting back Force or cantrip. You already have too many ETB tapped nonbasics, so it's even worse than usual.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

//Sideboard
4 leyline of the void
2 submerge
2 gilded drake
4 leyline of sanctity
1 Archmage Charm
1 Commandeer
1 Lazotep plating

r1 Storm:
g1 Early dreadnought into 3 forces. EZ G2/3 They cast veil and wheeled away my stifles into trash
r2 Esper Stoneblade:
g1 HAd the permission for the exile effects and just kept recasting uro. g2 had less permission and died. g3 bad keep didn't work out at all
r3 Grixis Control
G1/2 Shredder Fed Uro which Fed Bane and just overwhelmed their cards. Only a handful of cards can answer a bane and they had only Sudden Edict. They ran Hidestugu Consumes all, but while it was good at killing dreadnoughts it was bad at stopping banes.

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Don't expect to beat Storm with Forces postboard. They'll bring in a plan: Veil of Summer, discard, or Galvanic Relay. So you need a SB plan for that.
Flusterstorm is good against all three of those.
Spell Pierce too.
If they're on Echo of Eons, you should board in graveyard hate so they can't wheel your hand.
Is Leyline of Sanctity for Storm? Cut those from your SB.

Rounds 2 & 3 are both midrange removal decks. Both are tough matchups for Dreadnoughts. It may be correct to board out some Dreadnoughts and rely more on your other threats. Bane is much stronger in both matchups. But if you draw Dreadnoughts too, then you fall behind in cards. Especially if you try to defend Dreadnought. Spending 2 blue cards to answer their 1 mana spot removal is a losing battle. You'll keep falling behind in resources and they'll eventually have enough removal for Dreadnought. That's what happened in your Round 2. In Round 3 you won because you backed Bane instead of Dreadnought. Against these decks you could bring in another threat like True-Name Nemesis or Scroll of Fate. Both are good against enemy spot removal. You could also bring in answers like Veil of Summer/Flusterstorm to win counter wars.

What's Submerge for? Most Forest decks won't make bigger threats than you, so won't need spot removal against them. Consider 2-3 Run Afoul instead. It answers all the popular big creatures that could race you: Murktide Regent, Marit Lage, Griselbrand, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Yorion, Sky Nomad. It also deals with Baleful Strix-types that could block your creatures. It covers more ground that Submerge or Gilded Drake could in the current Legacy format. Top that off with Echoing Truth, which is also good against the cheaty fatties and good against token spam and Chalice too! Run Afoul+Echoing Truth covers more matchups than Submerge+Gilded Drake.

For graveyard hate, you may want something you can actually cast. Surgical Extraction, Soul-Guide Lantern, Phyrexian Furnace (good against UR Delver too), Grafdigger's Cage (good against Elves and Maverick too but bad with Uro). Those cards have more flexibility. Leyline of the Void is just good on turn 0 against all-in decks like AllSpells and Hogaak, but as soon as opponent draws Force of Vigor then you run out of grave hate. Cantrips won't help when you can't cast Leylines.

Sideboard should have some artifact hate too. Return to Nature? Collector Ouphe? Seeds of Innocence? Powder Keg (good against tokens and Elves too)? Normally UG would use Force of Vigor, but your green count is too low (Endurance has the same problem).


//Example sideboard: 15
3 Run Afoul
2 Flusterstorm
2 Veil of Summer
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Return to Nature
1 Seeds of Innocence
1 Powder Keg
1 Echoing Truth

Endurance was in the deck, relying on 12+ cantrips to cheat on green cards. Consider just seemed so much better than Abundant Harvest (putting two cards in the yard for Uro and Bane) that I Ended up cutting them and since like you said I'm already at 16 threats And the deck is crowded I cut out the Ice-Fang Coatls (which, themselves, replaced the Wavesifters in the Saga build I tried a while ago)

I actually liked the mystic sanctuary. The two times it came up it was great once (getting to put a stifle on top so that ledger shredder could conive it into my hand all in response to my own dreadnought) and bad once (one lnad hand where I only drew it as my next land.) Is it really on good with daze?
I understand with your proposed mana I'll have to cut it because I'm also cutting two islands.

For storm I expected to beat them with stifle and was caught by surprise with their new echo of the aeons plan. You can stifle through a Veil and I would have gotten away with it too!

I'll try something closer to your SB for the next iteration. Like I said mine was a mess mostly carried over from like a 5+ year old version of this deck that was on Ancient tomb and Torpor Orb
I'll take it back to the workbench and continue to curse Bane's absence from MTGO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

I actually liked the mystic sanctuary. The two times it came up it was great once (getting to put a stifle on top so that ledger shredder could conive it into my hand all in response to my own dreadnought) and bad once (one lnad hand where I only drew it as my next land.) Is it really on good with daze?

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It's just high variance. Sometimes it's great. Other times you get mana-screwed because your Island entered tapped or lost to nonbasic hate and you wish it was a basic Island. Because of that variance, you need a really good payoff to make it worth it.

UR's getting away with it because they operate on low mana (not hurt as much by tapped land) and they use it to get back card advantage (Iteration). The Daze+Mystic+Iteration loop also makes their topdeck Daze less bad. So it's working for them. Your deck doesn't have those synergies or card advantage to return. Plus you have big plays like Uro and Bane, so you can get punished by tapped nonbasic Islands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

For storm I expected to beat them with stifle and was caught by surprise with their new echo of the aeons plan. You can stifle through a Veil and I would have gotten away with it too!

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Yeah, Stifle is great vs Storm. A lot of storm decks now use the graveyard (Echo of Eons, Past in Flames, Cabal Ritual) so you may want to board in grave hate too.

But I would not bother with Leyline of Sanctity. Once they have Veil, they can freely set up a win that ignores Leyline. You shouldn't need the white Leyline against anything. Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce + Veil should be better overall against combo and discard, and you can use them against fair blue decks too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Like I said mine was a mess mostly carried over from like a 5+ year old version of this deck that was on Ancient tomb and Torpor Orb
I'll take it back to the workbench and continue to curse Bane's absence from MTGO.

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Oh Ancient Tomb + Torpor? That explains the 8 Leylines. They just don't make sense in a Xerox deck without Tomb.

This is the most fun DressNought deck I've seen in a while. Aeon Bridge updated with new tech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNM8_hyh6ZM


//Lands: 20
4 Mosswort Bridge
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth
1 Wasteland
3 Urza's Saga

//Creatures: 9
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Griselbrand

//Spells: 23
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Veil of Summer
3 Crop Rotation
4 Show and Tell

//Enchantments: 5
4 Dress Down
1 Omniscience

//Artifacts: 2
1 Lotus Petal
1 Pithing Needle

//Sideboard: 15
2 Stifle
2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Brazen Borrower
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Blast Zone
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Shadowspear


One of those Saga targets should be Expedition Map. Retrofitter should probably be Currency Converter, if not Map. Stifles could be Scroll of Fate or Flusterstorm.

The mana may need some tweaks. It's very low on blue to make room for cute tutor toolbox tech that isn't relevant often.

Aeon Flux looks rad as hell. I love that list FTW.

AJDAD came in 3rd place on Legacy challenge with this list. This is the third challenge top 8ed with grixis dressnought featuring slip out the back. That card is proving its worth…

Creature (9)
1 Brazen Borrower
2 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
2 Murktide Regent
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Sorcery (7)
3 Expressive Iteration
4 Ponder

Instant (21)
4 Brainstorm
1 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Slip Out the Back
1 Snuff Out
4 Stifle
1 Stubborn Denial

Enchantment (4)
4 Dress Down

Land (19)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1 Abrade
1 Hydroblast
1 Meltdown
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Plague Engineer
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Scroll of Fate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Torpor Orb

Moving to established decks, it appears that grixis is the most successful style. Standstill creates different play patterns, and Dress Down/Kroxa/new cards make this deck different enough from the old Dreadstill lists.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Moving to established decks, it appears that grixis is the most successful style. Standstill is pretty much unplayable, and Dress Down/Kroxa/new cards make this deck different enough from the old Dreadstill lists.

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The thread is still covering like 4 different variants, you might want a new thread for the Grixis dominance.

Or move this thread and move all the non-grixis decks to the "Dreadvelopment Zone"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Moving to established decks, it appears that grixis is the most successful style. Standstill is pretty much unplayable, and Dress Down/Kroxa/new cards make this deck different enough from the old Dreadstill lists.

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So the thing about throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if it sticks, is that it's a lot easier to "win" if you move the wall closer [smaller shorter events & boosted environments with too much combo in league and too much delver in inbred challenges], have more spaghetti [linear play resulting in shorter leagues], and more people throwing said spaghetti.

What you want to be paying attention to is the pairing luck, because StifleNought can't go positive vs fair decks....and if all it needs in a 6 round event to win 4 matches, it's not exactly challenging if you can randomly roll 3x auto-wins vs your only good matchups (Delver and combo)...but when you can't do that, there isn't a backup plan, b/c there is no source of internal relevance.

On Standstill-based decks, Dreadstill has put up multiple 5-0s with exactly 1 person playing it online recently. It also went 58th in the 300-some player showcase, through a 2 loss tax to banned effects Mind Twist and Timetwister. Standstill and Landstill continue to make money when built correctly and played well.

I'd be very careful about calling something unplayable while simultaneously praising the viability of a strategy which combines a huge fail rate and thousands more dollars in manabase cost.

I agree with Fox about the spaghetti thing.

The Challenge was won by UB Shadow. Both days. That says a lot. That weekend was full of combo and Delver (good matchups for Stiflenought), lacking fair midrange and control (bad matchups). The online meta reacted to a strong combo showing the previous week. When Shadow dominates, Stiflenought can do well too. In another meta maybe not.

Is that enough to qualify for "Established" status? Sure. Established doesn't have to be Tier 1 or good against everything.

But is it enough to say that Grixis Slipnought is better than other version of Dressnought (UR, UG) or Dreadstill (UR, UW)? That's where the spaghetti argument comes in. Maybe UR Dressnought or UR Dreadstill would have done just as well in that Challenge, since they all beat up on combo and Delver. We can't know because no one played them. That's not evidence one is better than the others.

The online meta is small and inbred, affected by influencers and social media. Certain decks attract attention and then get played a lot. How can you compare when one has much more spaghetti thrown? There are many Grixis players playing often. Other variations see very little play. Piproberts and Rood are the only online Dreadstill players, they don't play often, and yet they still have some 5-0s and high win %s.

"Standstill is pretty much unplayable" is not valid when Landstill still makes paper top 8s & a top 16 at SCG Con: https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=34

I think the Grixis discussion should either move to the old Stiflenought thread or start a new thread. It's a distinct archetype from Dreadstill, closer to the old Stiflenought decks. But it's also far from the lists in this OP. This thread has been more about experimenting with a wide range of Dress Down + Dreadnought brews ("Six Shades"). Not focused discussion on the successful Grixis archetype. This is a good place to continue discussing new brews.

2 established threads entitled:
Dreadstill, Enter the Fist
Grixis Slipknot

1 new/development:
Dreadvelopement Zone: 1 mana 12 power ROI

Ok, I just want to call the slip out the back builds "Slipknot"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Ok, I just want to call the slip out the back builds "Slipknot"

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I second the separate "Slipknot" thread.

Brews For Crews for non-slip Dreadvelopement.
Sorry. But this is an opportunity

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

So the thing about throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if it sticks, is that it's a lot easier to "win" if you move the wall closer [smaller shorter events & boosted environments with too much combo in league and too much delver in inbred challenges], have more spaghetti [linear play resulting in shorter leagues], and more people throwing said spaghetti.

What you want to be paying attention to is the pairing luck, because StifleNought can't go positive vs fair decks....and if all it needs in a 6 round event to win 4 matches, it's not exactly challenging if you can randomly roll 3x auto-wins vs your only good matchups (Delver and combo)...but when you can't do that, there isn't a backup plan, b/c there is no source of internal relevance.

On Standstill-based decks, Dreadstill has put up multiple 5-0s with exactly 1 person playing it online recently. It also went 58th in the 300-some player showcase, through a 2 loss tax to banned effects Mind Twist and Timetwister. Standstill and Landstill continue to make money when built correctly and played well.

I'd be very careful about calling something unplayable while simultaneously praising the viability of a strategy which combines a huge fail rate and thousands more dollars in manabase cost.

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My bad, wasn't looking to make a commentary on Standstill, just making the case that this deck is different enough to be it's own thread. That's all, sorry for the bad comment. Editing post now.

I really like the Temur Dressnought list that jcknox just 5-0ed with.

Creature (9)
1 Brazen Borrower
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

Sorcery (7)
3 Expressive Iteration
4 Ponder

Instant (20)
4 Brainstorm
1 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Slip Out the Back
4 Stifle
1 Stubborn Denial

Enchantment (4)
4 Dress Down

Land (20)
3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1 Abrade
1 End the Festivities
1 Hydroblast
1 Meltdown
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Scroll of Fate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Torpor Orb

Really well built in my opinion. 4 Stifle, 4 Dress Down, 2 Slip Out the Back seems to be the optimal mix of enablers whether on the Kroxa plan or the Uro plan. The single Stubborn Denial is spicy.

The only surprise to me is the lack of even a single DRC given how well DRC enables Uro, but I guess this route makes all the win conditions immune to Bolt.

This is what I took to the NRG today:
Deck
4 Consider
3 Island
3 Sailors' Bane
2 Brazen Borrower
4 Breeding Pool
4 Brainstorm
2 Force of Negation
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Ledger Shredder
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Ponder
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dress Down
1 Otawara, Soaring City

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Veil of Summer
1 Flusterstorm
1 Scroll of Fate
1 Archmage's Charm
2 Hullbreacher

1-3
Went to time vs delver and never drew a single threat in the third game
Overwhelmed by goblins in two.
Managed to beat up on UW. G1 they relied on Jace and forgot ward, g2 a timely stifle to keep them from getting to 4 and wrathing my dreadnoughts.
Then lost to a host of discard against ant. I'm not good at telling the storm variants apart so I think I should have known it wasn't the galvanic relay version but I didn't and fired off a force too early. G2 they kept hitting me with discard spells and I couldn't keep hiding/setting up counters and they won.
Then the long ride home.

Looking at the list I think you've probably constructed yourself out of a favorable Delver matchup. You can't touch their threats (DRC goes completely unchecked), and Murktide goes unchecked in the air while also being able to check a 7/7 Bane in defensive combat. Right off the bat you've signed up for a race where you can't afford to ever slip up, again particularly vs nonstop DRC surveils into their answers.

Against Goblins, a Cavern -> Lackey is literally game over. Your deck construction never had a chance here. These problems very likely extend to your matchups against anything with Vial.

Against UW it sounds more like incompetence out of the opponent in your summary, rather than your deck winning. Hard to say what happened with the Stifle, but it's pretty unlikely they were sequencing correctly and couldn't have played around it.

ANT is a match the odds dictate you should have won. So how you got the 1-3 is definitely surprising, but by all rights a 1-3 performance is highly expected based on those pairings.

Always have to be careful about StifleNought and just how many bad matchups it carries around. Delver and combo are the only reliably good ones, but you constructed yourself out of a round 1 bye and lost any chance to stay on the farm the Delver train.

Never forget that StifleNought is not intrinsically competitive; rather it is completely reliant on randomly pairing into Delver and combo to generate competitive-looking results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

Against Goblins, a Cavern -> Lackey is literally game over. Your deck construction never had a chance here. These problems very likely extend to your matchups against anything with Vial.

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How do you figure? I've got the bigger creatures, 6 free counterspells to deny vial, And then a 1/3 to block their 1/1. On top of Stifle and Dress Down?

Quote:

---

Against UW it sounds more like incompetence out of the opponent in your summary, rather than your deck winning. Hard to say what happened with the Stifle, but it's pretty unlikely they were sequencing correctly and couldn't have played around it.

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The sequence was on their end step I cast dress down. I think I protected it with a force of will.
My turn I untapped I cast two Phyrexian Dreadnoughts. By the time my turn rolled around they had 3 or 4 lands in play and had (or were going to) swords one of the dreadnoughts. At my end step after taking 12 they fetches.
I, seeing them now with 3 lands, cast stifle on the fetch. They responded with some counter and I cast Veil of Summer. They proceeded to untap, look at their cards and concede.

Delver has 1 mana threats and Daze, so you aren't winning the race by the odds. Probably the closest deck, in terms of just racing Delver without the ability to interact, is Reanimator...and they're all-in on lifelink and pseudo-lifelink (Archon). Since you don't have lifegain near that level (Uro is slow), it becomes more important to have cards like Bolt to either take 2 blue cards or force them into the play pattern of cantripping aggressively to find a replacement dude.

^this kind of racing is high variance on its own, but when you're leaving them on a DRC without dictating how they need to use cantrips (again, to find the replacement dude)...it uh, isn't going to end well. There's already problems with trying to stop a flying Goyf with a 1/3, but you let the DRC go unchecked and you're you're going to be looking at MurkGoyf into MutkGoyf lines (at which point countering the second one doesn't stop them from making a 13/13 out of the first one)...so that stat line advantage has a timer on it. You have a very short window where perfect draws from your deck can steal a game before they start linearly digging for answers...which incidentally also linearly powers out their Goyf train at double speed (1x DRC), triple speed (2x DRC), etc.

Edit: you were talking about Goblins. If their turn 1 is Vial, that would be "lucky" for you. What I see however is a deck that goes Cavern -> Lackey vs a deck with zero answers -> dumps in Matron -> shoots your 1/3 blocker with an uncounterable Munitions Expert. This would be the good scenario where you didn't insta-rip to Show and Muxus in turn 2.

You can't give an opponent an unchecked & uncounterable SnT effect (even if you can buy a little time by discarding Stifle and Dress Down...which takes you off the ability to go bigger with 12/12 since you lost the enabler). In the background, your mana is pretty terrible with 4x duals, which gives them even more agency.
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On the UW pilot, it sounds like they probably had ample opportunities to deploy that Fetch and/or activate it around Stifle. Even if they had to crack a Fetch into Stifle, it still sounds like they had no shortage of spots to trade FoW on that Stifle without turning on Veil.

This really does sound like an incompetent pilot who did not realize that your main wincon vs them is generating trades with Stifle vs mana. It really does sound like they chose the spot to lose big time to Stifle all on their own...and that is consistent with a player who plays into an onboard "trick" like Ward 4.

They also opened up an event with 2 losses (?) despite playing cantrip cartel and Plow full of Ending +/- 2 banned effects if they had a single MindTwister in there. Short of getting legacy'd twice in a row, this really points to a pilot problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

How do you figure? I've got the bigger creatures, 6 free counterspells to deny vial, And then a 1/3 to block their 1/1. On top of Stifle and Dress Down?

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Agree with Fox.

Goblins -> T1 Caverns Lackey on the play
You can't Force, no 1-mana blocker, no 1-mana removal. All you can do is pray they don't have Muxus, Goblin Grandee = game over. Goblin Ringleader and Sling-Gang Lieutenant are bad for you too.
Your best tool against that line is to pass and hold up Stifle. You can Stifle the ETB trigger or the Lackey combat trigger. But that only saves you from 1 attack/threat, and they may have more gas. Depending on how long you have to hold up Stifle, or if they use mana denial on you, it may stop you from being able to tap out for your 2-3 mana creatures, giving them tempo to get more goblins and go wide.

With Goblins on the draw, you might think the turn 2 1/3 will hold off their 1/1, but they have Goblin-removal for blockers. Or they can go for Goblin Piledriver (protection from Blue), which gets around most of your creatures. They also have Goblin Cratermaker (1: destroy target 12/12 or 15/15).

UR Delver poses the same kind of problem.
UR -> T1 Volcanic DRC on the play
They can protect with Force and Daze and keep the pressure on you before you can land a threat.

Turn 1 Goblin Lackey and Dragon's Rage Channeler are why most fair decks in the format need 1-mana removal. Playing fair without removal leaves a weakness to these strategies, so you need some other plan to fight them. You can't rely on just going over them with big creatures because they have tools to out-tempo you (Wasteland, Port, Vial, Daze, removal).

UG's best plan against DRC + Murktide is Endurance. Maybe you need to up the green count to support Endurance? Otherwise 3x Run Afoul in the SB and/or 1-2 Blue Elemental Blast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

The sequence was on their end step I cast dress down. I think I protected it with a force of will.
My turn I untapped I cast two Phyrexian Dreadnoughts. By the time my turn rolled around they had 3 or 4 lands in play and had (or were going to) swords one of the dreadnoughts. At my end step after taking 12 they fetches.
I, seeing them now with 3 lands, cast stifle on the fetch. They responded with some counter and I cast Veil of Summer. They proceeded to untap, look at their cards and concede.

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That's a good line! I think you also got a bit lucky that you drew 2 Dreadnoughts (4 copies) before they drew 2 StP/Ending (7-8 copies), so they had to rely on Jace to answer the 2nd one and lost to mana denial.

I'm surprised you didn't beat ANT. Sounds like bad luck. With 6x Force 4x Stifle 1x Fluster 3x Veil 3x Mindbreak, that seems like an easy matchup.
Edit: Actually I think your SB is overboarded for Storm. You could cut some of those slots to make room for bad matchups.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

Looking at the list I think you've probably constructed yourself out of a favorable Delver matchup. Against Goblins,

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Even worse: the mana. 4x Breeding Pool + 0 Prismatic Vista + 0 Forest. Delver and Goblins are both Wasteland decks. His deck runs Uro, which forces blue fetch to get UG dual. 2-4 mana creatures are not stopping 1-mana threats.

These matchups should get a bit better going to
4 Misty
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
3 Island
1 Otawara

Fetching basics against Delver/Goblins will prevent some losses to their mana denial

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

Against UW it sounds more like incompetence out of the opponent in your summary, rather than your deck winning.

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Give him credit, because he constructed to avoid losing to StP as badly as Stiflenought usually does (higher threat count, Sailors Bane). He should have a much better UW matchup than any other Stiflenought version.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Give him credit, because he constructed to avoid losing to StP as badly as Stiflenought usually does (higher threat count, Sailors Bane). He should have a much better UW matchup than any other Stiflenought version.

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The person I'm not giving credit to is the UW player who apparently had enough mana to pay for ward 4 and killed themselves by playing JTMS instead of removal spell paying for ward.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

The person I'm not giving credit to is the UW player who apparently had enough mana to pay for ward 4 and killed themselves by playing JTMS instead of removal spell paying for ward.

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Where did I say this? They had 4 mana, tapped out for Jace and downticked. There was no answer for the Bane that turn. Unless they had a wrath in hand (which they didn't because they didn't cast it on their next turn after I added an Uro to the board) they were not in a position to answer the Bane and scooped. Exactly why my deck is running Bane instead of Murktide.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Then lost to a host of discard against ant. I'm not good at telling the storm variants apart so I think I should have known it wasn't the galvanic relay version but I didn't and fired off a force too early. G2 they kept hitting me with discard spells and I couldn't keep hiding/setting up counters and they won.
Then the long ride home.

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How did you board against ANT? What went in and what went out? I wonder if that's the problem. Because even if you Force the wrong thing, this matchup seems 98%/2% in your favor.

7 pieces of hate to bring in, plus 2-6 potential more with marginal disruption.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

How did you board against ANT? What went in and what went out? I wonder if that's the problem. Because even if you Force the wrong thing, this matchup seems 98%/2% in your favor with your SB choices.

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This is based on memory after malding over it after the match.
So G1 I've lost at least a stifle and i assume something else to another duress and the board is we each have some number of lands, I have a dreadnought in play and a Force of Negation in hand. On his turn he looks like he's going for it. My thought process is that if it is galvanic relay he'll be able to go off again next turn and my force won't be enough so I cut him off here.
I untap, halve his life total, and he casts a few rituals into ad naus and storms off.
Out: 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, 4 Dress Down
In: 3 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Veil of Summer, 2 Hullbreacher
I keep a hand with at least; Brainstorm, Consider, Ponder and Stifle. T1 I get the stifle taken, and t2 I ponder and put force in position 3 (so that it will be the card under the car I'd draw for turn, but still accessable off the brainstorm and consider.), he again takes something on his turn.
My turn 3 I forget what I did, but I made sure to leave up 1 mana for the cantrip and to take the counterspell. He casts another discard spell, takes one cantrip, and the casts a ritual. His hand is pretty full so I felt i had no choice but to let it go off but then he casts another duress. So now my only interaction is Brazen Borrower, which only works if he doesn't kill me this turn. He kills me this turn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Out: 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, 4 Dress Down
In: 3 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Veil of Summer, 2 Hullbreacher

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I think this is a mistake.

Dreadnought is a very powerful tool against combo. Cheap efficient clock. They don't have removal or blockers. This is the 12/12's best match!

I would go
In: 3 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Veil of Summer, 2 Hullbreacher, 1 Flusterstorm
Out: 3 Sailors' Bane, 4 Ledger Shredder, 1 Uro, 1 Consider

Basically cut the slow midrangey stuff and rely on the fast Dreadnought kill. Otherwise they get too much time to sculpt and disrupt.

Oh yeah I brought in fluster too. I wanted threats I could cast on their own and I kept the cantrips so I could better sculpt my hand against theirs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Oh yeah I brought in fluster too. I wanted threats I could cast on their own and I kept the cantrips so I could better sculpt my hand against theirs.

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The standalone threats are slow clocks though (gives them time to get a 2nd wind) and you don't care about 2-for-1s vs combo. Sailors Bane can't kill until turn 7ish? Stiflenought kills turn 4. The bigger threats also mean tapping out on your main phase (harder to hold up mana for tricks). Dreadnought is mana-efficient. You can hold up Veil, Fluster, Stifle, Brainstorm... while -12ing them. You can't do that while tapping down to play the bigger threats. Ledger Shredder doesn't cost much mana but it's a very slow clock, so maybe that's the cut.

Combo is one of the best matchups for Dreadnought. If you don't keep in Dreadnought for combo, why even play Dreadnought instead of Bant Uro or RUG Ledger Shredder?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

I untap, halve his life total, and he casts a few rituals into ad naus and storms off.

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He went off with Ad Naus from 8 life? After you Forced an important spell last turn? He must have gotten lucky too.