[Deck] Pox

Okay, it's time to unveil the first incarnation of my Pox 2.0 deck. But first, I want to cover what prompted me to begin messing with the deck and why the list is going to raise some objections.

What is Pox?

Pox is a black disruption deck similar to, but not exactly, a control deck. Unlike a true control deck, Pox is not capable of controlling the board or shaping and maintaining a favorable board position for long periods of time. Instead, the deck attempts to throw so much disruption at its opponent that that player is kept off balance while the Pox player wins. Pox therefore seeks to be a highly proactive deck, attacking its opponent's hand, lands, and creatures in order to thwart their eventual victory.

What are the benefits of Pox?

Like its cousin Pikula Homebrew, Pox is a very versatile deck that isn't strategy-specific. In other words, unlike a control deck like, say, Psychatog, Pox doesn't stop your opponent's game plan, but rather prevents them from carrying it out in the first place by denying your opponent the basic resources he or she needs to win. However, unlike other resource-denial or prison decks, Pox is built to benefit from symmetrical resource destruction by running cards that are immune to it (Phyrexian Totem) or can be recurred (Nether Spirit). Furthermore, it has a major leg up on Homebrew by being monocolored and therefore less prone to an opponent's mana disruption.

One other thing that bears mentioning is that Pox is a very versatile deck in terms of design. Outside of a few key components (see below), the deck can be tailor-made to wreck a given meta or broadened enough to take into an open field.

What are the problems with Pox?

There are a few big problems with Pox, some of which pertain to the namesake card and some of which are endemic to this type of deck. I'll go over them one by one, backing them up with my observations from playing and testing the deck quite a bit.

1) No card draw or manipulation. The deck is a fearsome beast if it hits all the right draws, but it tends to run out of steam in the mid-to-late game and thereby loses its ability to apply pressure to your opponent. If your opponent can recover, you will lose. Unfortunately, as the deck is monoblack, there are very few options for card drawing that play well with the rest of the deck.

2) Russian Roulette is a dangerous sport. When you play Pox, you're gambling on a few things - one, that you've done a thorough enough job supressing your opponent that he or she can't come back before you kill him or her, and two, that he or she won't draw into some miracle card in the next few turns and either remove your threats or otherwise stop your attack. If that happens, you've made it that much easier for your opponent to win. Casting a Pox is almost always suicidal against Goblins unless you are holding multiple Infests or have several Engineered Plagues in play.

3) The "Three Mana Rule." Every card in the deck costs three mana or less to play, for a number of reasons. First, it allows you to absolutely abuse Dark Ritual. Second, you will also be forced to sacrifice lands to a Pox. Having a low curve allows you to keep going after a Pox without having to wait for additional lands. However, it does limit your options in terms of what cards can be added - remember the old saying: CMC's over three, stay away from me!

Black's Anatomy, or what the insides of a Pox deck look like.

Pox can largely be broken down into a few main chunks: your core disruption suite, your win condition, and metagame tuning.

Core Disruption Suite:
-Sinkhole: kills lands dead, costs two mana, next.
-Hymn to Tourach: no one likes to be on the receiving end of random discard. Hand suppression works wonders, and this card lets you 2-for-1.
-Smallpox: a new addition, but a good one. Good either early game to slow an opponent down, or after a Pox, to get rid of whatever was left standing on the other side of the table.
-Pox: duh. The deck is kinda, you know, named after this card. It would kinda be, you know, important.
-Wasteland: Nonbasics are rampant in this format. This is a fun and exciting way to deal with them.
-Duress: Useful against every deck in the format but Goblins and a handful of others. If you have a lot of Goblins in your meta, this should probably go in the SB, but you MUST run it somewhere.

Win Conditions: (NOTE: this can differ by build and builder preference. I'll list the most common ones here)
Nether Spirit: discard itself to Pox, then comes back for more. Also an infinite chump blocker. If the board is clear, he can go on the offensive for 2 damage a turn.
-Mishra's Factory: it's a land, so you could lose it to Pox, but you should be sacrificing tapped Swamps to Pox, not manlands. It's also difficult for an opponent without Wasteland to get rid of as it is not always a creature and can recur itself via Crucible of Worlds.
-Chimeric Idol: have nothing to do with your mana? Why not just activate this and swing for three? Or use it as a "surprise" blocker when you're tapped out. The 3/3 body makes it fairly durable.
-Phyrexian Totem: it's like Negator, except it doesn't automatically die to your symmetrical removal. It's also a mana source, which can help if you're land-light.
-The Rack: some Pox builds focusing on discard strategies run this. Personally, I think it's too slow and conditional, but that's just me.

Other things / Meta things:
These are cards common to most Pox decks, but they aren't absolutely essential like the previous two categories. Still, they are very important to your strategy and are highly recommended.
-Crucible of Worlds: you'll be sending a lot of your own lands to the graveyard, and this helps to ease the pain. It also allows you to pull of neat tricks like Wastelock (tm) and Nether Factory (tm).
-Dark Ritual: the bread-and-butter of mana accelerants. Run it, and run four of it.
-Innocent Blood: Thresh is a major force in the format and this card is essentially a one-mana Cruel Edict against that deck. Also deals with a first-turn Lackey.
-Infest: useful for Goblins and weenie decks. Partners well with Engineered Plague.
-Funeral Charm: also useful against Goblins. It's very versatile, but rarely impressive.
-Midnight Charm: from the new PC set, this is basically a Funeral Charm that is better against an aggro meta than Funeral Charm is. Midnight Charm can nuke turn one Lackeys or save you from a SoFI-wielding Sea Drake with equal ease. Funeral Charm is probably better in a combo and Goblins meta because it'll never be dead.
-Tomb of Yawgmoth: Also a new addition from the PC set, this card makes all your colorless lands not so colorless anymore. Useful for smoothing out mana issues and it's (almost) better than a basic Swamp.
-Shrouded Lore: timeshifted Forgotten Lore from PC. It can get mana-intensive, but being able to "flash back" Hymn or Pox can be good. Crucible will allow you to get lands out of your graveyard so your opponent's choices are limited to things you actually want to recur. This warrants testing.

There are more cards, but I won't go into them. Suffice it to say, any card that's either black or an artifact, costs three mana or less, and is a legitimate answer to a problem in your meta can be included in the deck.

A Few Notes on the Deck
1) Pox is mono-black for a reason. Yes, it could splash for green for Deed and a LftL card advantage engine. Yes, it could splash for white for Vindicate and Swords, and better win conditions. BUT doing so makes your mana base weaker, as it opens you up to Wasteland disruption on your secondary color. It's bad enough fighting through Wastelands on your Factories, but being kept off a key color is bad, bad news. Also, there are very few things that black cannot do with sufficient cajoling that would require a splash.

2) The worst card in Pox is Pox, and the best card in Pox is Pox. In the right matchups, Pox is a bomb that can cripple your opponent beyond means of recovery. In the wrong matchups (Goblins), Pox speeds your opponent's clock up and costs you the game. The card may be the namesake card of the deck, but sometimes the correct decision is to side out your Poxes for games two and three. This is especially true against Goblins. If you run Engineered Plague and Powder Keg in your maindeck or sideboard, these are much better cards to play than Pox because you should never cast Pox against a Goblins player unless you are already ahead and are reasonably certain that they don't have any savage topdecks waiting for you. That's a lot of qualifiers for one card. In short, maximizing maindeck Poxes is not the best decision, but between the maindeck and the 'board it helps to run three or four.

3) On a slightly less primer-ish note, I need help testing both my build and new PC cards that could be helpful: Midnight Charm, Shrouded Lore, Tomb of Yawgmoth, maybe Extirpate. There aren't many Legacy tournaments around here this time of year, so if we want matchup data and a final, optimized decklist, I'll need help. Feel free to post your matchup data in this thread and I'll compile it in this post.

Now it's time for the moment you've all been waiting (or scrolling down) for: my latest take on the deck.

Sample Build, by me
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
11 Swamp

3 Nether Spirit

4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Infest
3 Phyrexian Totem
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pox

SB:
2 Pox
4 Duress
3 Powder Keg
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Oppression

Sensei's Divining Top acts as card selection and, combined with fetches, it actually does well as a way to keep yourself from running out of steam in the late game. One thing that seems contentious is the inclusion of said fetchlands. They provide a few important functions in this deck: 1) they thin your library out, which is good...you don't want to start topdecking lands in the late game, 2) they make SDT a good card, and finally 3) they bring fresh cards to the top when you aren't impressed with your draws. With a lower Pox count in this deck, the life loss is not so much of an issue.

The addition of Shrouded Lore to the maindeck would enable the deck to continue to apply pressure in the late game even after playing a lot of key spells...think of it as a "mid-air refueling." Who wants to start testing it?

Matchup Analyses and Sideboarding Strategies
~under construction~

EDIT: expanded my post (primer much?) and updated it with my latest random thoughts. Keep the discussion going.

I realize it's all the rage for its massive power, and it's new and awesome, but Extirpate would not be my first choice of Graveyard haters in Pox. Pox already waxes ecstatic against combo and control, Extirpate's strong suits.

Ebony Charm seems much better suited to this task, especially in your build with Phyrexian Arenas, as not only can it empty graveyards, it can also create a two-point life swing with its drain effect, which is crucial when both players life totals are frequently below 10. It can even let a Nether Spirit or Factory swing through for an unblockable 2-3.

Aggro Zombie, I don't want to be harsh but I don't see the point of your post.
Your list is not very different from the others, and you didn't even tested it! Plus I don't learn anything here that I didn't already know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sea R Hill

Aggro Zombie, I don't want to be harsh but I don't see the point of your post.
Your list is not very different from the others, and you didn't even tested it! Plus I don't learn anything here that I didn't already know.

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I know that. However, I felt I needed to cover my bases because I was introducing two potentially contentious changes to the deck - a decrease in the number of maindecked Poxes and Phyrexian Arenas as card draw. And I haven't tested the list yet due to a lack of tournaments and a lack of time, which is why I was asking for help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

I know that. However, I felt I needed to cover my bases because I was introducing two potentially contentious changes to the deck - a decrease in the number of maindecked Poxes and Phyrexian Arenas as card draw. And I haven't tested the list yet due to a lack of tournaments and a lack of time, which is why I was asking for help.

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Eh, I don't really like Arena In Pox. With it, Fetches, Pox, and small pox, You just seem to lose just a bit too much life to my likings. I've been running Top in my build of Pox, and find it much preferable, as I think Card manipulation is much more useful to the deck than outright card draw. Also, your decklist, as far as I can see, does nothing to shore up Pox's weakness to Goblins, which, in my opinion, is the biggest thing keeping Pox from being Tier.

I actually think Aggro Zombies build looks solid.

Yes Pox is a powerhouse but it really isn't that good against this decks weakness, so cutting it might not be a bad call.

I do however think Expirate is unneeded, this deck does fine against control and combo. I love that Arena keeps you packed with disruption, hate the lifeloss though. If only Bottled Clostier costed 3 mana.

If you're running Totem, I actually like Midnight Charm B (possibly even as much as Funeral Charm)
Instant
Choose one - Midnight Charm deals 1 damage to target creature and you gain 1 life; or target creature gains first strike until end of turn; or tap target creature.

Both First Strike and tapping are great with Negator on a stick. And it can kill lackeys like Funeral Charm did. If only it could compete with instant speed discard.

I didn't test the arena, but i am already short in life points without it, so I will probably not test it. I am also pretty comfortable with the top.

Aggro zombie, I posted a list that use the top and don't use 4 Pox but 3. It must be from page 10 to 12.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sea R Hill

I didn't test the arena, but i am already short in life points without it, so I will probably not test it. I am also pretty comfortable with the top.

Aggro zombie, I posted a list that use the top and don't use 4 Pox but 3. It must be from page 10 to 12.

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I agree. I am always so low at life that I run 1 or 2 Zuran Orb in the sideboard sometimes.

Zuran Orb + Crucible also adds a mana to your pool if you have no lands in the graveyard and haven't played one that turn.

Anyway the point of this post is not to suggest Zuran Orb, but I think Arena is too painful for us.

I've seen a couple of cards in the upcoming Planar Chaos set that would reall fit nice into Pox decks:

Tomb of Yawgmoth
Legendary Land
All lands count as swamps

This is great to turn mishras and wastelands into swamps (and even fetchlands if you don't want to break them taking one damage), and also lets you tap cabal pit without taking damage. There is also a minor advantage, but that sometimes could be handy: since your opponent's lands are swamps too, you can use the swamwalk ability of funeral charm to make Phyrexian Totem or other creatures unblockable. I would run a couple.


Eradicate/Root of Evil (name is still unclear)
Instant - B
Split Second
Remove target card in an opponent's graveyard from the game. Search that opponent's graveyard, hand and library for all copies of that card and remove them from the game.

I wouldn't run this maindeck, but it can be SAVAGE as a sideboard cards against many decks that rely on single, specific, cards, like Iggy Pop or solidarity. Since the deck easily discards/destroy many cards, you can have a lot of interesting targets for this cards. Even just removing nonbasic lands could be nice, and if used in such a way could even be considered maindeck (but I think sideboard is the best choice).



There is also an old card I'm thinking of, which has never been taken in consideration:

Peat Bog
Land
Peat Bog comes into play tapped with two depletion counters on it.
Tap, remove a depletion counter from Peat Bog: add BB to your mana pool. If there are not depletion counters on Peat Bog, sacrifice it.

This land can be dropped on turn one and let you easily have 3 mana turn two. In a build not running rituals, and so with less turn one plays, the comes-into-play-tapped problem is lessen. But the good side of it is that it's the land you always want to sac to pox or smallpox: this way it's just a land which taps for BB with almost no drawback. If you also run crucible, it seems even more interesting. However, its high unreliability makes it very questionable; I would probably try it only in a list which decided not to play dark ritual.



As far as my build goes, I've tried to splash it for white. Yeah, I know that makes the mana base more vulnerable, but vindicate is just too hot: it acts as sinkhole, or can destroy a nasty creature, or even those damn artifacts, first of all artifact mana and the hatred VIAL. Sure, you can run sinkhole, which is better at removing lands, or play innocent blood which is cheaper at removing creatures, or powder keg which is slow but can take out artifact, and other things. But vindicate can do ALL of them.

So, if we run vindicate, we need some white mana source: mox diamond is an excellent mana source, can't be stripped by a wasteland, and speeds up mana development. A couple of scrublands plus some fetchlands are also needed.

Fetches, Mox diamond and a less stable manabase all call crucible (which is, anyway, a very good card in pox, making us recover easier and letting us discarding lands to pox without really losing them).

Crucible calls for Mishra Factory.

Mishra calls for Phyrexian Totem instead of the antisynergic Idol.

So, more or less, the build I'm thinking about (including the above Planar Chaos cards) is:

MANA:
3 Swamp
4 Fetch
2 Scrubland
2 Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cabal Pit
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra
4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual (I see some prefer to take them out, but they seem too useful for casting quick disruption or crucible/totem. Taking them out however would let us improve the threat density)

POX: 8
4 Pox
4 Smallpox

REMOVALS:
4 Vindicate
(I feel like running also Sinkhole is overkill)

DISCARDS:
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Funeral Charm / Duress

I generally prefer Charm, since it can remove creatures too and also makes an instant discards, thus preventing the opponent from using LftL for a turn. It has also some synergy with Tomb of Yawgmot. It is, however, one of the cards you most likely side out for better cards: it is very versatile for the first game, but you can usually put in better ones for the post side games.

OTHERS:
4 Phyrexian Totem
2 Nether Spirit
2 Powder Keg
4 Crucible of Worlds
Yes, four is a lot, but both the mana base and the utility lands benefit from it, and after all you can discard any unused one to (small)pox.

SB (just and idea thrown there):
2 Powder Keg
4 Root of Evil/Estirpate
4 Innocent Blood or Infest
3 Engineered Plague
2 Spinning Darkness
Cabal therapy and oppression both could be good. Cabal Therapy in particular is good with Spirit or Mishra+Crucible, and it's terribly good together with Estirpate because both make you see opponent's hand and call good cards with both of them.

Malhavoc, your list is decent, though I'd probably drop a Phyrexian Totem for another Nether Spirit. 4 Totem is just plain overkill in my opinion, and I've had little to no problem with the third Nether spirit usually.

The problem with Peat Bog is that when you tap it for BB the second time, you have to sac it. So [I think] if you used it to cast (Small)Pox you would have to sac another land as well, which sucks. Plus it comes into play tapped. The deck's repertoire of spells are 3cc or lower anyway, so the boost is negligible, and if you really wanted accel [a point I'll get to later] you can run Ritual anyway.

Anyway, I've also been trying out Tomb of Yawgmoth, and I'm not quite sure what to make of it yet. Here's what I've proxied up, which is more conventional, for lack of a better term, than the previous lists:

15 Swamp [I wouldn't go below 17 total B-producing lands with Pox costing BBB]
2 Tomb of Yawgmoth [the other 2 B-producers]
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

3 Nether Spirit
3 Crucible of Worlds

4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

Well, those are the first 53 cards. I'm still undecided on what to put in the final 7 slots, and the problem mainly lies in the question: Ritual or No? With Ritual, the last 7 cards would probably be:
4 Dark Ritual
3 Phyrexian Totem [better with Factories than Chimeric Idol, and the deck needs the extra offense]

But without Ritual, the deck just opens up to lots of other possibilities. Adding 1-2 more land [probably 1 Tomb and 1 Factory], then there are still 5 slots to screw around with. Powder Keg, Infest, Phyrexian Totem, Cursed Scroll, Phyrexian Arena, Sensei's Divining Top, Funeral Charm, etc have all been mentioned before and could all be fit into the remaining slots. What I've tested the most has been:
+1 Tomb of Yawgmoth
+1 Mishra's Factory
2 Phyrexian Totem
3 Powder Keg

As expected, it's a lot more stable with 25 lands and board control [Keg, but I could easily run Infest in its place], but Ritual is just... Ritual. It can be crazy good or just be dead in your hand. Plus Tomb is much more juicy as a 3-of with 7 non-Swamps to Swampify. Any input? Should I go with explosiveness [Ritual] or stability [more land + board control]? Maybe even go for stability in the main deck and adding Rituals in the sideboard [or vice versa, Rituals main and extra land and board control in the sideboard]?

I think Tomb of Yawgmoth (as a 2x or 3x) let us run a complete set of wastelands and mishra, which is simply wonderful. What is more debatable is the acceleration: mox diamond/ritual/both/nothing. Using diamond would make me run for some vindicates as well. Particularly if we don't have vindicate, powder keg seems really necessary to take down opponent's mox, vial, and a bunch of artifacts/creatures.

Personally, I wouldn't cut ritual: it's just too good to have a starting boost, which I like to use to cast some disruption or a crucible, which otherwise it's not easy to cast after poxing.

I've tested phyrexian arena already, but it's usually just too painful: if cast at the beginning of the game, we usually don't survive long enough to it. And even cast later, it's very risky. Maybe skeletal scrying, which is more easy to "control" and can also remove multiple spirits in the yard.

Im wondering if Nights Whisper would be worth the cards. I did fall in love with Confidant in the deck but hes very vulnerable as a draw engine and negates the spirit plan. Try that if your meta is very control heavy. My list is somewhere in the thread.

Powderkeg is the better I think. The most important things to kill are usually @ 1 mana anyways. It kills Mongoose which is nice, altho we have many ways to do so already.

Aggro zombies, if you had problems with your life total, I'd rather cut the fetchlands [which do nothing, really] rather than go down to 2 Pox - you should have at least 3. And 4 Pox is, of course, the best. Maybe 0 fetchlands, 4 Pox, 2 Arena? Or 3 Pox, 3 Arena if you really like it in the deck.

I tested Skeletal Scrying a few weeks ago and it worked fine, but often did so in situations where I was already in a superior position. If you have the mana to cast a significant Scrying [x>2], means that you already have lots of gas to play whatever you topdeck anyway, and having extra Spirits in the graveyard often means that you misplayed them in the first place.

Night's Whisper was in my pre-Time Spiral [thus Smallpox-less] Pox deck, and it worked fine. The lifeloss sometimes became an issue, but you have to expect that. Personally, though, I think card quality is almost strictly better than draw in this deck, so if I had to put in such cards I'd rather go with Top or Lose Hope than Scrying or Whisper. There's no life loss, and post-Pox you only have resources for one spell a turn anyway, so making sure it's a good one is a nice plan to have.

By the way, why is this deck still in New and Developmental? 13 pages into the discussion, and with general consensus on what the deck wants to do and what the core set of cards are, it's hardly new or any more developmental than some decks in the Open forum, which are of similar or even less stature than Pox. Aggro zombies' post at the top of this page is a good starting point [although I have some reservations about his list], and we just need some solid matchup information [not just "smashes control/combo, does okay but may have problems vs aggro, dies to gobs"] and we're [hopefully] good to go.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jebus

By the way, why is this deck still in New and Developmental? 13 pages into the discussion, and with general consensus on what the deck wants to do and what the core set of cards are, it's hardly new or any more developmental than some decks in the Open forum, which are of similar or even less stature than Pox. Aggro zombies' post at the top of this page is a good starting point [although I have some reservations about his list], and we just need some solid matchup information [not just "smashes control/combo, does okay but may have problems vs aggro, dies to gobs"] and we're [hopefully] good to go.

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The deck has been sitting in New and Developmental since Small Pox was released to us. Before that there was an existing pox thread in the Open Forum. Dont ask me where it went or why it was demoted. We in the thread all know the deck needs to be moved but unfortunatly no one has the power to do so aside from the people leaving it here in the N&D. PM someone, lets get our deck rolling. I mean it is shaping into tier one isnt it?

Here is my recent list.

Land 23

4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
10 Swamp
1 Tomb of Yawgmoth

Creatures 3

3 Nether Spirit

Utility 9

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Phyrexian Totem
3 Crucible of Worlds

Pox Stuff 25

4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Smallpox
3 Powder Keg
3 Pox

SB: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Oppression

Im going 3 and 3 with the poxes. Smallpox is better against aggro whereas Pox sucks, since aggro is the weaker matchup we need to accomidate. I didnt like the feel of only 2 Pox because I never drew it. Powder Keg is an absolute must have against Aether Vial and Needle. It also does a great job of clearing moxen as well. It gets the edge in over Infest which is too dead against alot of decks. It does nothing agaisnt Stompy decks, Thresh, or any type of combo. Im going with Top as my 'draw'. Fetchlands go with Crucible to help the deck shuffle. The deck couldnt handle the life loss of arena and Im not sure Im ready to lose Nether Spirit to play Confidant. I wish I could fit the Duress in the maindeck but I cant find room and as mentioned the aggro match is bad enough.

Bane, how has the goblin match been going without infest or e.plague?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jebus

Aggro zombies, if you had problems with your life total, I'd rather cut the fetchlands [which do nothing, really] rather than go down to 2 Pox - you should have at least 3. And 4 Pox is, of course, the best. Maybe 0 fetchlands, 4 Pox, 2 Arena? Or 3 Pox, 3 Arena if you really like it in the deck.

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I'd have to disagree with you a bit here. 4 Pox is not the best...in fact, I would go so far as to say that the worst card in Pox is Pox. The card has a tendancy to backfire on you and playing it against Goblins is downright suicidal. Pox is bad in general against decks able to quickly recover their board positions - namely, Goblins (one Ringleader post-Pox and you're screwed), Thresh (Chain-o-Cantrips will make up for any card disadvantage they incur unless you completely destroy their manabase), and some combo decks (Iggy is notoriously resilient to Pox...in fact, they welcome the opportunity to dump things in the yard). Playing Pox against these decks is just asking to lose, as it will often do more harm to you in the long run than it will do to them. That's why I've cut the number of maindeck Pox down so much - the deck can be sufficiently disruptive without playing its namesake card, although Pox is so good in some matchups that I'm reluctant to cut it entirely.

Also, after testing with some friends, I've determined that Phyrexian Arena is a bit of a liability, Pox or no. It has the unfortunate tendancy to backfire against Goblins and is too slow against combo decks like Solidarity. For the time being I'll be going back to using SDTs until I can come up with something better.

Also, I have the feeling this is still here because it dies horribly to Goblins. Consistently losing to the most prevalent deck in the format isn't really a good thing. If we can fix the Goblins matchup, a strong case to move it to Open can probably be made.

Aggo Zombies - For a card engine, I ended up splashing Green for Sylven Library, and 2 Copies of LftL with 3 Cyclers. It could have been because I really wanted to abuse Uba Mask in the board, but it's worked out fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Also, I have the feeling this is still here because it dies horribly to Goblins. Consistently losing to the most prevalent deck in the format isn't really a good thing. If we can fix the Goblins matchup, a strong case to move it to Open can probably be made.

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This is indeed the main problem with Pox and why it's still here. The other problem is the majority of the people posting a lot of random decklists showing off their new tech card they're using and explaining why it makes Pox so much better while said "tech" doesn't really actually help against this deck's maind problem, Goblins.

I'll just let the 4 Pox thing go and stand corrected on the matter. I've actually gone down to 3 and found the deck less a tightrope walk, but I wouldn't go down to 2.

The thing with the deck is that it thrives on being able to just disrupt your opponent unrelentingly, and needs a critical mass of disruption to do so. Already we've seen problems finding slots for threats [6-7 being the absolute minimum, and already borderline untenable], card draw or deck manipulation [SDT + fetches being the current choice], and goblin hate, and the huge disruption suite is what's being cut down. I see going down to 3 Pox as an option... but what else? Cutting Duress?

Things to consider [lots of questions here]:
1. Threats
With Tomb of Yawgmoth, are we really compelled to run Mishra's Factory, or are Chimeric Idols just simply more solid [3/3 > 2/2, and artifact hate is still far less prevalent than nonbasic hate]? If Factory, then do we still run Totems?
2. Card draw / deck manipulation
Top + Fetches test well, but is the lifeloss going to be an issue, especially as there may be times where you are forced to crack a fetch just to get the mana you need? And if it is an issue, won't the more powerful immediate effect of Night's Whisper be a better choice?
3. Goblin / Aggro Hate
What to maindeck, and what to sideboard? Kegs seem to be the better maindeck choice because of their general usefulness, but Infest is better against Gobs, which is THE problem matchup. What else? Utility things like Lose Hope/Funeral Charm? Or do we go all out and maindeck Plagues [and maybe Kegs as well] and have additional Infests SB? And what do we cut for additional maindeck aggro hate?

Tons of questions there. And there's still my love/hate thing with Dark Ritual. I have them back in the deck, but I may take them out again before long.

EDIT: And once we've settled those above things, what do we prioritize? Do we accomodate all these options [as bane and Aggro zombies have], and cut down on the disruption? Is it worth watering down the deck's strength [albeit admittedly not by much]?

Just to throw this out there, I've tried 2x and even 3x Tomb of Yawgmoth and found even the 3x to be of little to no detriment.

You can sac or discard any extras to Smallpox or Pox. But the massive gain you get from being able to tap Wastelands for black mana just can't be beat. I am actually seriously considering testing 4 copies!

And also, for those builds that are cutting Pox running 3-4 in order to abuse Wasteland, Pox, Smallpox, Fetchlands, and Factories, I would almost certainly run 1-2 Cabal Pit. Pox is powerful, and it does cost you life. I can see why some people are cutting it. But if they are, you can afford to lose life to Cabal Pit.

jebus, yes I do think a case can be made Idols are better than Factories even with Crucible.

Anyways, having established that 3x Tomb of Yawgmoth works just fine, here's what I'm going to attempt to test now...

8 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cabal Pit

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Pox

4 Innocent Blood/Infest
3 Nether Spirit
3 Phyrexian Totem
3 Crucible of Worlds

Is there anything about this build that you would change?

Hi everyone,

First of all , this is my first post ever. I’ve been playing the pox deck for a few month and I was greatly inspired by this very productive thread (although it’s quite fuzzy sometime).

Here is the list I run

14 swamps
4 wasteland
3 cabal pit
4 mox diamond ----------- or dark ritual, I can’t really tell the difference

4 sinkhole
4 hymn to tourach
4 duress
4 smallpox
4 pox
3 innocent blood

2 nether spirit------------ 2 only but I hate drawing 2 of them and can be fetched with machination
2 crucible of world----same thing as nether
3 chimeric idol
3 the rack -------------- your best (only?) chance against aggro, why in hell would you take him out ?

2 dimir machination ----- probably the most controversial card but fetches everything (pox, nether, crucible, plague). Occasionally it can assure victory if you swept board and hand with a beater on your side, casting it to make sure the opponent doesn’t draw a solution.

SB:
4 leyline of the void
4 pithing needle
4 engineered plague
3 powder keg

Ok so I won’t pretend my built is the best, some would probably argue that I should play more of this or less of that (nether, crucible) but all the cards in here have already been discussed on this thread and everyone was able to make his own opinion depending on his meta, the cards he like or own etc.

However, I think it can be improved and the planar chaos release can be a good occasion for it. I’d like to have your opinion on these :

Yagmoth tomb : the first tests seem to be good. I’m also quite enthusiastic about this card. The reason why I haven’t played mishra’s factory so far is because I got too often color screwed because of colorless wasteland. I think it’s a real problem in this deck where there is very few colorless mana cost.

Sinkhole : Ok I can already hear the roar of the crowd but I’m actually seriously thinking about taking these out. “ Are you out of your mind man ! It’s the best landbreak ever!!!!” Sure it is, and I’m the first one to feel sorry to have spent 120€ for 4 beta ones that I’m now thinking about take out. I have a few arguments to make my point :

_First basically in terms of CA, sinkhole isn’t that good. One spell for one land. It usually make you lose one turn and makes your opponent lose one turn. You gain nothing from it while you’re are supposed to get advantage of spoiling the game.

_Second, a few cards make it really useless : fetchland, quirion/scryb ranger, (played in zoo), misdirection (sided by faerie stompy), daze (for thresh)…….

_Third, it’s bad against most unfavorable MU : goblin, random aggro, burn, loam decks, superfast combo...

_Fouth : I think Pox lacks kill conditions so I think about cutting some disrupt.

That is why most of the time, I deside sinkhole on G2 to usually put some plague or powder keg in.

So I’m currently thinking the following changes :

-4 sinkhole
-2 chimeric idol
-4 swamps
-1 cabal pit
-1 wasteland

+ 3 phyrexian totem
+1 rack
+3 tomb of yagmoth
+3 mishra’s factory
+3 powder keg

I’m also thinking about including sensei divining top which seem quite good to increase mid-game card quality but that means to include fetchlands and I don’t know if it worth it.

I hope this post wasn’t too heretic nor erratic and I sure wait for your response.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Misobizo

2 dimir machination ----- probably the most controversial card but fetches everything (pox, nether, crucible, plague). Occasionally it can assure victory if you swept board and hand with a beater on your side, casting it to make sure the opponent doesn’t draw a solution.

---

Welcome to The Source, and our little thread. Its certainly the best discussion going on for the Pox archetype and we've made alot of progress coming to an optimal build. There are some general points I'd like to make about your deck regardless of your meta. The first is that Dimir Machination is crap. We've discussed it with high hopes (being a 3cc tutor and all) but discovered its short comings in testing. Each time you draw this you'll wish it was simply one of the cards it would fetch. Or even worse, something it cant. You never want to stare down a turn one lackey with this in hand when it couldve been your fourth Innocent Blood. Turn three is a terrible turn to do nothing. Thats really all there is to it, infact doing nothing any turn is hazardous to your gameplan. The deck needs to constantly apply pressure to one of 3 things at all times.

- The opponents mana sources.
- The opponents card advantage.
- The opponents creature base.

The only exception to this rule is when your applying pressure to the opponents life total. This is done by tapping out to cast Totem or Spirit.

The only exception to that rule is Crucible of the Worlds. Its the only non aggressive card played in the deck. Its the only card that earns a spot in the deck as a non-threat. The exception to this seems to be Top. Pox needs card draw or some way to filter through late game draws. This is the best way. You can cast top with totem on turn 3 or cast it with extra ritual mana.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Misobizo

SB:
4 leyline of the void
4 pithing needle
4 engineered plague
3 powder keg

---

Based off your maindeck your sb looks very strong. If your seeing a surge in Faerie Stompy in your meta consider swapping Pithing Needle or some copies of keg for Sudden Death. The same for thresh. I doubt your bringing in 4 needle, plague, and 3 kegs against goblins. If so one of those options belongs in the maindeck, and something like Duress in the board.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Misobizo

Yagmoth tomb : the first tests seem to be good. I’m also quite enthusiastic about this card. The reason why I haven’t played mishra’s factory so far is because I got too often color screwed because of colorless wasteland. I think it’s a real problem in this deck where there is very few colorless mana cost.

---

I havent personally tested tomb yet but it seems like it has no downfalls. Extras are simply discarded to pox effects. The question of course is how many to run? If your playing factory, and you should be, considering 3 may not be out of question. They make fetchlands better by letting you keep your life total unless you want a shuffle effect for top.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Misobizo

Sinkhole : Ok I can already hear the roar of the crowd but I’m actually seriously thinking about taking these out. “ Are you out of your mind man ! It’s the best landbreak ever!!!!” Sure it is, and I’m the first one to feel sorry to have spent 120€ for 4 beta ones that I’m now thinking about take out. I have a few arguments to make my point :

_First basically in terms of CA, sinkhole isn’t that good. One spell for one land. It usually make you lose one turn and makes your opponent lose one turn. You gain nothing from it while you’re are supposed to get advantage of spoiling the game.

_Second, a few cards make it really useless : fetchland, quirion/scryb ranger, (played in zoo), misdirection (sided by faerie stompy), daze (for thresh)…….

_Third, it’s bad against most unfavorable MU : goblin, random aggro, burn, loam decks, superfast combo...

_Fouth : I think Pox lacks kill conditions so I think about cutting some disrupt.

That is why most of the time, I deside sinkhole on G2 to usually put some plague or powder keg in.

---

I, as well as others have experimented with cutting Sinkhole. Until playing without it I didnt realize it was MVP. It rounds out the ld effects of Wasteland and Poxen perfectly. Without it you'll notice your opponent getting more little windows to cast a cheap threat.

- First, Pox is build for 1 for 1 trades off the opponent. I know you feel your doing 'nothing' for the turn, an amusing statement from someone playing Transmute cards, but what your really doing is stopping your opponent from doing anything for a turn. In that time walk you can often sneak in damage or simply mana screw the opponent. It also opens windows such as these..

Opponent- Mountain, Lackey
You (on draw)- Swamp, Ritual, Innocent Blood, Sinkhole.

You start your opponent back to nothing in such plays, and if luckey, your gob opponent kept a 2 land hand because he had lackey, ect.

- Second, no deck plays enough fetches to create no targets. Eventually your opponent will crack them and you can hit their land. If your opponent sits with 2-3 fetches on the table in fear of Sinkhole, your winning. You should welcome a Misdirected Sinkhole because Faerie Stompy will need to pitch an extremely good card against you, since they play little blue. That means you wont be mauled by a Sea Drake, or hit with Psi Blast. ect. Your taking 2 cards out of your opponent hand in exchange for 2 of your own cards. Although that seems like FS is pulling off something tricky, their really treading water over their head with plays like that.

If your opponent Dazes your Sinkhole guess what? You still reduced their manabase. This is another example of uphill battles for the blue mage, and is one occassion where I wouldnt play around the expected Daze.

If Zoo is enough of your meta to be a concern, dont play pox. You have a terrible matchup against blistering fast aggro, ones E plague dont help against in particular.

- Third, If you havent noticed those are the decks weakness's regardless of Sinkholes presence. Infact you'll find it more usefull against gobs to Sinkhole a Rishadin Port than to play Pox.

- Fourth, every bit of disruption you remove makes your win conditions weaker. Every Sinkhole you dont play gives your opponent more mana to comply with, lets face it, weak win conditions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Misobizo

So I’m currently thinking the following changes :

-4 sinkhole
-2 chimeric idol
-4 swamps
-1 cabal pit
-1 wasteland

+ 3 phyrexian totem
+1 rack
+3 tomb of yagmoth
+3 mishra’s factory
+3 powder keg

---

Your deck has the notable difference of The Rack. While I dont think this is the wrong choice just remember you need to play a larger combination of hand removal to make this suite work out. Even though Rack seems to be winning against goblins all they need to do is play Ringleader to fill the hand back up to 0 damage from rack. I took this card out for Powder Keg.

Aside from that your build looks good. Id go with this change instead tho..

-2 dimir machination
-2 chimeric idol
-7 swamps
-3 cabal pit
-3 the rack
-1 pox

+ 1 innocent blood
+ 3 bloodstained mire
+ 3 phyrexian totem
+3 tomb of yagmoth
+3 mishra’s factory
+2 powder keg
+2 top

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Misobizo

I’m also thinking about including sensei divining top which seem quite good to increase mid-game card quality but that means to include fetchlands and I don’t know if it worth it.

---

Top is probably worth inclusion and also fights for the rack's role. playing top requires a few fetchlands, playing some fetch lets you pull tons of swamps out of your deck with crucible. Also, when playing with Top, Totem, The Rack, and Crucible, means no Cabal Pit. You'll never hit thresh enough to make it worth it.

Hope this helps.

Yeah, Tomb of Yawgmoth is insane!! I still miss running Chimeric Idol over Mishra's Factory though.

Cabal Pit does have a lot of minuses. The lifeloss sucks, and the threshold requirement really sucks too, esp since being able to kill creatures early on is more important.

One card I'm actually looking at is Quicksand, possibly in place of Mishra's Factory, or possibly in addition to it. Yes it's colorless, but it's a great answer to turn one lackey, and a whole lot of other problem creatures early on, something that Cabal Pit wasn't able to do. Plus it recurs with Crucible.

Assuming you go up to as many as 4 Tomb of Yawgmoth, I've tried it briefly and I think we might be able to get away with it, I think we might be able to run 2-3 Quicksand, in place of Cabal Pit.

What do you guys think?

Clark Kant : With tomb of Yagmoth in, it is true that quicksand appears to be better that cabal pit. However, it doesn't deal with flying and the creature must be attacking. That's why cabal pit is better in my opinion if you can thresh quick enough (which is not the case). I would try 1 or 2.

Bane of the living : Thanks for your help. I found it very usefull. I think I'll try it that way.

The opening post has been completely overhauled. Check it out.

I'm wondering what you guys think of Expirate. As I mentioned. If Expirate is a good card, this is just about the best deck to abuse it.

It gets your opponent to sac away or discard most of their bombs by it's very nature. It's not a very fast deck by any means, which means that the benefits of Expirate are morely likely to come to fruition by the end of the game. And there are a couple of cards that Pox really fears from each deck if it can't get rid of them quickly, cards like Exalted Angel. Expirate sees that you never have to worry about that particular card again.

Expirate's inclusion might warrant Cabal Therapy as well. The trifecta of Duress, Cabal Therapy, and Expirate work incredibly well together ensuring that you always know what your opponent is up to, and how best to stop them.

The main problem I'm having with Expirate is that it's damn near impossible to test properly because you pretty much have to guess how good the card was, you never know it first hand, since the card many times doesn't have it's effect until several turns down the line.

I've played against extirpate....and i have to say im not really impressed with it.
Someone extirpated my sinkholes. That was like, ok woopdy fuckin do. I havent tested it out or anything, its has only been used against me. But based on the results that i have seen, it doesnt really do that much. It generates no card advantage, no virtual card advatage and really isnt a tempo loss for the other side. It really is like cabal therapy, name a card in the yard or guess what they have in their hand. Only extirpate has a slight advantage, you have to see what you are nameing. Again I'm not that impressed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BeeblesofLife

I've played against extirpate....and i have to say im not really impressed with it.
Someone extirpated my sinkholes. That was like, ok woopdy fuckin do. I havent tested it out or anything, its has only been used against me. But based on the results that i have seen, it doesnt really do that much. It generates no card advantage, no virtual card advatage and really isnt a tempo loss for the other side. It really is like cabal therapy, name a card in the yard or guess what they have in their hand. Only extirpate has a slight advantage, you have to see what you are nameing. Again I'm not that impressed.

---

We're mainly discussing the inclusion of the card, not strategy against it. It does seem as though Exirpate has a home here in pox. How is beyond me. It should probably be regulated to the board however, a Rack based version might find success playing 4 Duress, 4 Cabal Therapy, and 4 Exirpate. You'll definitly hit more targets with therapy and exi, probably making the effect rather cummulative and effective.

Wow, i didnt think of it like that at all....useing Extirpate as a catalist for therapy. Seriously, turn two extirpate and follow it up by a same turn therapy?
I like the general concept...I am going to try out a version that useing duress therapy instead of duress hymn. It just seems like you'd hit more cards that way. I dont know, maybe im just being dumb.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clark Kant

I'm wondering what you guys think of Expirate. As I mentioned. If Expirate is a good card, this is just about the best deck to abuse it.

It gets your opponent to sac away or discard most of their bombs by it's very nature. It's not a very fast deck by any means, which means that the benefits of Expirate are morely likely to come to fruition by the end of the game. And there are a couple of cards that Pox really fears from each deck if it can't get rid of them quickly, cards like Exalted Angel. Expirate sees that you never have to worry about that particular card again.

Expirate's inclusion might warrant Cabal Therapy as well. The trifecta of Duress, Cabal Therapy, and Expirate work incredibly well together ensuring that you always know what your opponent is up to, and how best to stop them.

The main problem I'm having with Expirate is that it's damn near impossible to test properly because you pretty much have to guess how good the card was, you never know it first hand, since the card many times doesn't have it's effect until several turns down the line.

---

...which is precisely why you shouldn't run it. Several turns down the line, you may very well have won the game, in which case you just wasted a turn doing something that didn't contribute to your eventual victory anyway. Furthermore, there is nothing that Extirpate could do in this deck that cannot be done better by Leyline of the Void or Planar Void. The only benefit you'd get from this is an improvement in the matchup against LftL decks, and even then those decks are going to start packing Burning Wish in expectation of Extirpate, which means that you have to force them to discard Wish so you can Extirpate it first, then hit LftL. Otherwise, you have a temporary solution at best and you might as well just run Leyline as it will get rid of their entire yard and not just LftL.

In other words, every deck and its dog are going to be expecting Extirpate, and every deck and its dog are going to be making changes to either minimize Extirpate's impact or nullify it entirely by packing one or more different kinds of Wishes.

I went to a tournament yesterday. I ran this:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
18 [OD] Swamp (3)

// Creatures
3 [MM] Nether Spirit

// Spells
4 [7E] Duress
3 [IA] Pox
4 [ON] Infest
4 [PY] Chimeric Idol
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
3 [TS] Smallpox
3 [R] The Rack
2 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [U] Sinkhole
3 [IA] Dark Ritual
3 [TE] Cursed Scroll

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 4 [US] Oppression
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [5E] Pox
SB: 1 [TSP] Smallpox


Pox is bad against big creatures. A pneumbra wurm and an eternal witness will just laugh at you, and then kill you. Pox is good against tier one, but gets destroyed by random natural order decks.

Please stop running dark ritual everyone.

Consider the following two scenarios.

An aggro control black deck runs ritual to power out negator on turn one and follows it up with some combination of sink, waste, and duress to win the game. The game is over by the time the black player has spent their hand and the card disadvantage of dark ritual has not actually had a negative impact. The negator came out so fast and was so large that it had the power to win the game all by itself, even with minimal support. Alternatively, the ritual can power out hypnotic specter, which can more than make up for the card disadvantage by effectively locking the opponent out of the game. Again the threat is potent enough all by itself to end the game. Finally, the deck can ritual out a turn 1 duress + sink/hymn, turn 2 sink/hymn/etc., and turn 3 drop negator or hippie. The former can still end the game so fast the opponent cannot effectively capitalize on your card disadvantage. Also, as I said, the latter can neutralize the card disadvantage and lock your opponent out of the game. The major point is that both of these ritual workhorses either directly negate the card disadvantage (specter) or win the game before the card disadvantage is ever actually felt.

Pox rituals out a chimeric idol or nether spirit and follows it up with some disrupt. They spend their hand and still have 10 damage or so to go. Now the opponent recovers, deals with their one threat, and is in a winning position because pox's disrupt becomes progressively weaker as the game advances to a more mature state. Pox's win condition(s) was/were simply not fast or potent enough on their own to win the game. The other scenario where pox rituals out duress/hymn on turn one and follows it up with a turn 3 threat has the same problem. The main point here is this: When casting ritual pox will exhaust its hand well before the game is over because it cannot cast a 5/5 trample on turn 1, at which point the disadvantage of ritual will begin to have significant effect. The disadvantage will become a serious liability as the game continues more and more turns after the pox player has exhausted their hand. Today's resilient decks recover and the game progresses past a "turn 3 state"; pox is toast.

Most commonly pox wants to ritual out duress/hymn on turn one. This is card neutral and does not actually bring you closer to winning. This kind of play was great back in the ole (misspelled for emphasis) days when decks were simply unresilient and tended to bow over in the face of real disruption. There was also a far smaller variety of good black control cards at <3cc back then.

That is not true today, there are plenty of things to replace dark ritual with. Namely smallpox. You can also go with a crucible build with lots of fancy lands. Or you can go with a more traditional 18-20 swamps/4 wastes build with 16-20 discard and 16-20 LD. Today the name of the game is consistency and steady pressure. You make every card in your deck go one for one or better with every card in theirs. You use utility like duress, in addition to other options like pithing needle and powder keg, to knock out specific problems (aether vial, fow, daze etc.). You use pox to shorten your clock and you pound for the last few while you keep denying resources. You never run out of gas unless you get mana flooded quite badly, in which case dark ritual would have only excacerbated the problem. Finally, you sideboard for whatever your versatile maindeck cannot handle. I've found that my only autoloss in game one is land.dec. I sideboard 4x ankh of mishra and 4x leyline of the void. Ankh is a bomb against a few decks. Leyline's great against a lot. The only other matchup I find a little below satisfactory is gobs, so I sb E. Plague. Then there are 3 more meta slots.

I must urge the pox-playing world to cut ritual. I have presented arguments far more convincing than "but it's ritual!". I have presented viable replacements for ritual which shore up weak spots in the deck. I have given every reason in the world to stop running ritual. I hope I have been heard by at least some of you.



- Andro

Playtesting endlessly and very positive results based on games Ritual shows up deter me from your anti ritual crusading. Your making a terrible mistake if your ritualing into Nether Spirit turn one. There are far better things to do with the mana. Your also making the mistake of pushing ritual as a turn one play when infact it can be a phenominal turn 2 or 3 play because it accelerates you into Pox when your opponent usually has handsizes of 4-5. It gives you early game Pox played through Dazes. Against Goblins the deck really needs to 2 mana boost to keep ahead of the game. Turn one Chimeric Idol is amazing against gobs isnt even comparable to casting Negator or Spector, which would otherwise be sucking. Dark Ritual doesnt need an aggro//control suite to be effective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

Playtesting endlessly and very positive results based on games Ritual shows up deter me from your anti ritual crusading. Your making a terrible mistake if your ritualing into Nether Spirit turn one. There are far better things to do with the mana. Your also making the mistake of pushing ritual as a turn one play when infact it can be a phenominal turn 2 or 3 play because it accelerates you into Pox when your opponent usually has handsizes of 4-5. It gives you early game Pox played through Dazes. Against Goblins the deck really needs to 2 mana boost to keep ahead of the game. Turn one Chimeric Idol is amazing against gobs isnt even comparable to casting Negator or Spector, which would otherwise be sucking. Dark Ritual doesnt need an aggro//control suite to be effective.

---

I do not intend to offend or to insult, but please listen to me when I say that you missed the actual point of my argument when you address the following:

I do not personally make a habit of ritualing nether spirit on turn one. When reading my argument I follow this scenario up by directly comparing it with ritualing out negator on turn one to illustrate a point: fast/potent win conditions capitalize on dark ritual best.

I use turn one simply because it is simplest to compare scenarios/examples on turn one. The points and arguments I made are valid on all turns.

You have missed my fundamental argument and have not addressed the issues I have raised. On a basic, fundamental level, dark ritual exploits fast wins. When have you seen one shot mana acceleration in anything but a deck that wins turn 5 or earlier? Usually ritual decks win turn 4 or even 3. Besides pox, that is. Pox was an exception at a time when a little potent and fast disruption could push a deck back too far. Now decks are exponentially more resilient. In older days a sprinkling of LD and point discard in the first few turns would knock someone on their back. There was also a shortage of good poxish cards. Neither of these things are true anymore and the rule of not playing one shot mana acceleration in a slow deck has not changed. There is now an abundance of pox options, so many that people can't decide on the right 60 card lists. It would be a lot easier to build your 60 card pox deck to encompass everything you want/need in it if you didn't have ritual. It will have a better percentage against a varied field because your deck runs additional versatile answers or threats rather than a card that your deck cannot fully use and that causes you to run out of disruption faster.

The argument is simple and fundamental. You cannot win before the disadvantage of ritual is fully felt by your deck. Your deck does not possess essential answers to very problematic cards (vial and other random troublesome artifacts). Speaking of artifacts, artifact mana can really hurt you a lot. You can turn some off with needle or blow it up with powder keg or even run null rod (if you're not running idol, which would be ill-advised). The point is, the deck has fundamental weaknesses in the current legacy metagame. Dark ritual is conditionally good and can be a blank. A well-known adage and wise advice is that a deck with fundamental weaknesses and flaws should trade random speed/goodness for consistency, versatility, and better controlling elements. That advice applies here, and the options are here. Make use of as many as you can.

I have communicated my perspective based on basic principles of magic deck construction. It is well known that the deck is lacking in some specific aspects. It is also well known that the deck lacks answers to some very important cards. It is also well known that there is a relatively versatile answer to every single one of these problem cards. I believe you when you claim positive results when casting ritual. Dark ritual can enable some fast openings and I do not dislike the card at all. It does not surprise me that you win games with a deck full of brutal disruption when you cast dark ritual. But, your deck will be better in the long run without it.

Let us say for the sake of arguement that you're correct, that while Dark Ritual is powerful and can win games, we would be better off running something else in it's place.

In my list below, what do you recommend testing in place of the Dark Rituals...

8 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cabal Pit

3 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Nether Spirit
3 Phyrexian Totem

Sideboard:
X Expirate
X Pithing Needle
X Powder Keg
X Engineered Plague
X Infest


The options that come to mind for me are...

Sensei's Divining Top
Powder Keg
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Arena
Infest
Funeral Charm
Mox Diamond
Engineered Plague
Cabal Therapy
Extripate

The card IMO should probably be on the low end of the mana curve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clark Kant

Let us say for the sake of arguement that you're correct, that while Dark Ritual is powerful and can win games, we would be better off running something else in it's place.

In my list below, what do you recommend testing in place of the Dark Rituals...

8 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cabal Pit

3 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox

3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Nether Spirit
3 Phyrexian Totem

Sideboard:
X Expirate
X Pithing Needle
X Powder Keg
X Engineered Plague
X Infest




The options that come to mind for me are...

Sensei's Divining Top
Powder Keg
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Arena
Infest
Funeral Charm
Mox Diamond
Engineered Plague
Cabal Therapy
Extripate

The card IMO should probably be on the low end of the mana curve.

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I'd say you're correct in thinking it should be on the low end. Ideally one mana, two is acceptable, three is too much. Plague's an exception because goblins forces other decks to do whatever they can to not lose, so our hands are tied if the meta's full of gobs and we want something to own them with.

First I'll make it known that I'm not a fan of the crucible/fancyland version, but I recognize it as a powerful strategy and a legitimate direction to take your deck. So, because I don't have any experience with this version, I'll assume that you have optimized your mana base when I make my suggestions. My pox runs 20 swamps, so I blanch a bit at your number (12), and I can't accurately quantify how much the 3 totems, 3 rituals, 3 tomb, and 3 crucibles make up for it. It's 12 fixers and that seems like a lot I suppose. So, I assume you've fixed it so it's consistent.

Pithing needle, powder keg, and funeral charm are the most versatile cards you listed, and are my personal favorites. They fit all the criteria:

- Low end of the mana curve
- Deal with the deck's specific problems (artifact mana, Aether vial, artifacts in general, charm hits lackey, needle hits occasional Survival of the Fittest)
- Versatile, needle turns off a variety of things and powder keg destroys a large variety of things. Needle can be worse because they may sac the land/creature you name. Keg may be worse if they cast something with >2cc. But if the game hasn't slowed to a point where you have the two turns, or has advanced to a point where they have >3mana, your basic game plan has probably failed. Not a specific card. Charm always goes one for one and hits lackey. Along with innocent blood you have 7x lackey answers.

Other notables in your list include cabal therapy, infest, e. plague, and extripate.

Therapy can be ridiculous *if* you have a spirit in play. You can also just get lucky and call the right card. It can also whiff horribly or sit in your hand without a spirit.

Infest would be more of a meta slot. A somewhat odd meta, too. A high-aggro metagame typically means high-gobs, in which case just run E. plague in this spot. If, for some reason, your meta's full of sligh, elves, and thallids infest is solid.

E. Plague, good against gobs, next.

Extripate is new, I never tested it. It seems too conditional to be maindecked. Perhaps potent enough for the sideboard but I'm not sure about that either. You'll have to test this if you wanna know, I can't say anything with any degree of certainty.

Sensei's top... another I haven't tested. Good in theory because the game can often drag out and top can provide a lot of selection. My estimation is that it wouldn't carry its weight in practice, however. During the crucial first 4 turns it may just waste your time or sit in your hand wishing it was a disrupt or removal like needle/keg/charm. If you topdeck it you may. again, wish it was removal for that mongrel that snuck by. Or a hymn to capitalize on their mana screw, or a sinkhole to finish screwing them. Or a powder keg to hit that chrome/diamond mox to finish screwing them. Or at worst a funeral charm to use at their upkeep to keep them screwed another turn. Or a needle to turn off their aether vial which is at 3 counters and is dangerously close to pooping out a brutal ringleader. Or at 4 counters and one more is the gangbanggame over. Or or or.... Pox wins on constant pressure, cohesion, consistency, and screwing the opponent. I'm not a fan of top.

Phyrexian arena fixes the problem of card advantage but, as hundreds before me have noticed, the life loss is typically unacceptable. The deck walks a tight rope against slighish and burnish decks already.

Mox Diamond, looks great in crucible builds. Can't say much more, test this one on your own and decide for yourself.

A couple of points, I'm running 20 sources of black mana 8 Swamp + 4 Fetch + 3 Tomb + 2 Pit + 3 Totem, (23 if you count Dark Rituals), not 12.

I don't like maindeck Pithing Needle because there are several matchups against which they are largely useless.

Sensei's Top is a lot more abusable than you make it sound like. You seemed to overlook the shuffle effect that the 4 fetchlands provide, and the possible recursion of this shuffle effect with Crucibles. Many games with this deck go long, and those games, you are likely to get both Crucible and Top in play at the same time with a fetchland in the yard. And those games, the ability to shuffle away lands and ensure that you draw only disruption and threats wins you a lot of games. Like you said, Pox wins on constant pressure/disruption, Top ensures that Pox gets that pressure/disruption rather than drawing into a bunch of extra lands.

And I don't think the deck runs enough lands to support Mox Diamond, though admittedly, I haven't tested the card. But it does seem like you want three mana sources early on, since you'll end up saccing one or two, and for that, 24 lands isn't enough to ensure you'll have an extra one to pitch to Diamond.

Infest is quite good against a lot of decks other than the ones you listed including many you wouldn't expect. It's pretty strong against affinity. And for example, I love that you can wipe Angel Stompy's board except for their Exalted Angel, and then force them to sac their Angel with Pox/Smallpox/Innocent Blood.

And don't forget Therapy combos with not just Spirit but with Duress... and Expirate if you choose to run that sideboard as well.

Other than that, I agree with you on your assessment of the other cards.

That said, I'm still not sure which card to test in place of Dark Ritual and I'm no where close to being convinced that Dark Ritual should get the boot in the first place.

But the top three candidates IMO are in this order...

1. Powder Keg
2. Top
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3. Funeral Charm

@ Kant:
What are the fetches for? With no Top, the reshuffle is basically useless. And if it's for getting threshold faster for Pit, isn't it just counterproductive with the lifeloss [from fetch AND Pit] and all?

And why 3 Ritual? If it's in the deck, you want to see it as early and often as possible. It's almost like you should run 4, or not bother running it at all.

Top + Fetch has been working for me, as well as 2 Tomb. And, just so Androstanolone doesn't feel alone on this one, I've once again dropped Rituals [they were back in for a while] from the maindeck. They're still calling to get back in, though.

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A couple of points, I'm running 20 sources of black mana 8 Swamp + 4 Fetch + 3 Tomb + 2 Pit + 3 Totem, (23 if you count Dark Rituals), not 12.

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This is a matter of definition/terminology. You're running twenty black sources. You're running 12 swamps (counting swamp fetch as a swamp). I tend to count basic lands in pox because that's how I've built it in general. Also, I would not count totem as a black source because it's at the top of your curve. I must admit, cabal pit is new and pretty cool... and another reason to make crucipox. Crucipox also benefits more from ritual, it should be noted.

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I don't like maindeck Pithing Needle because there are several matchups against which they are largely useless.

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This is a good point, I don't run the needle either. But, I consider it mentionable because if its 1cc (big spot for pox) and ability to shut down a few important cards while mildly annoying other decks.

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Sensei's Top is a lot more abusable than you make it sound like.

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I'll have to take your word for it because I haven't used it. I don't run fetch lands because of the life loss. If I had top in my deck then fetches would be a natural inclusion also. This is a very positive interaction and can make the difference in terms of percentage over a long game. But then again, so can a couple points of fetch damage. It's a very good point that it helps keep constant pressure, but what about when you draw top on turn 4 or so when you need something else to keep the pressure on before the game gets away from you? That's my concern. Usually the game is clenched around turn 4 or so and its just a matter of drawing a reasonable mix of lands and spells to win. Fortunately you can shuffle it or other things away with fetches... Like I said, I only proposed my best guess, those of you who play with it carry more weight here.

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And I don't think the deck runs enough lands to support Mox Diamond

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Agreed, nor a game-winning two drop. Although a turn 2 crucible off diamond is seeeeexy.

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Infest is quite good against a lot of decks other than the ones you listed including many you wouldn't expect. It's pretty strong against affinity.

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I didn't make an exhaustive list, although affinity is a good point. My point was that, if lots of aggro is around, gobs will be most abundant because it's King Aggro. Whatever the meta's full of, it's gonna be full of the deck that beats it. Gobs generally beats aggro. So in an aggro meta E. Plague seems a better fit.

Also, yes I remember that therapy combos with duress also. Therapy's good, I just hate having to either cast one blind (which happens half the time I draw it) or wait for the duress/spirit.

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But the top three candidates IMO are in this order...

1. Powder Keg
2. Top
...
3. Funeral Charm

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I like your assessment, although my jury is out on top. I've been running 4x keg and 4x charm in my pox for a while now. Keg is such an all-star. I've pulled from some quite unfavorable board states by drawing it. I've hoarded removal while taking a hit only to cast keg after they make their second drop, snagging 2 for 1 with aces in the hole. People have been forced to target keg with their first pithing needle instead of idol (unless idol is already out). It's been great. Funeral charm has been great also. Everyone says it's never great, always okay. I disagree. It is sometimes very great. I've used it to pump my idol to 5/3 and win. I use it at my opponent's draw step to keep them screwed. I off lackeys and confidants all the time. One thing about pox is that, against a creature-heavy deck, they always sac their worst creature. So when there's an X/1 you really wanna deal with you don't have point removal for it. Charm provides that point removal. Did I mention it's instant? Useful against all of the big 3? Yeah, I like it :). Those are my two favs, with my third pick varying a lot. Innocent blood is great but I don't like having more dead cards against combo (already got keg), but it's just fantastic against thresh, madness, and gobs. I might try top with some fetches, I just don't know if it's worth it sans crucible, and I don't know if I'm ready to go crucipox yet or not. It looks good, I should at least try it some games.

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Top + Fetch has been working for me, as well as 2 Tomb. And, just so Androstanolone doesn't feel alone on this one, I've once again dropped Rituals [they were back in for a while] from the maindeck. They're still calling to get back in, though.

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Thanks for that, jebus :). Top+fetch can be powerful, especially with crucible. I don't think my deck can really use it, though, without turning into something different:

4x duress
4x fun charm
4x sinkhole
4x hymn
4x keg
4x smallpox
4x pox
4x chimeric idol
4x nether spirit
4x wasteland
20x swamp

I could only cut keg, I think. Then I get owned by vial every time. I'll just have to build a crucipox version.

So, my original point, taking out dark ritual. You have all these great options you want to fit in your deck, more than you can possibly keep to 60 cards. They're all good. Except dark ritual can be great or it can set you back on the topdeck or if you run out of disrupt while your opponent recovers. It makes sense to me to add in more action-spells, so you never run out and so you have the answer to the deck's problems (lackey, vial, artifact mana to name the biggies). That's my take. However, as I said, ritual is better than crucipox because CPox seeks to win on broken interactions with crucible. Taking some disadvantage is fine if crucible recoups it quickly and then puts you ahead. Crucible takes the deck into a more combo-control direction and so ritual warrants consideration. One other thing to keep in mind, the crucible strategy is very powerful when it goes, but it's vulnerable to commonly played "hate". Graveyard hate now not only hits your spirit but also renders your crucible dead (not forever, but for a long time). Artifact destruction is still played, moreso in sideboards but some in maindecks.

Basically I think it comes down to percentages. If people start placing with ritual pox then I'll admit I'm wrong. However, it is my belief that a more controlling, ritualless pox has the versatility, stability, and resilience that is needed in a powerful but varied legacy metagame.