[Deck] Merfolk

I'd like to point out, it's "Thrasher" not "Trasher" or "Trahser." I know, Spelling errors are not exactly the biggest of concerns, but it pains me to see that get typoed all the time. On to your list, I don't really like vial in the deck, it's not accelerating anything when you have no one drops, so it sits dead on your table for the turn you cast it and a full turn after. I'm not a fan of dead drops. That SHOULD be either Cursecatcher or Tidal Warrior in that list. It's not too far off from what I played this past friday at the first (!!!) tournament that I know that's taken place in Albany in many moons. With that in mind... MINI REPORT!

So myself and a few friends arrive at Science and Hobby to do some casual gaming and building and realize, holy crap, there's actually 9 people here instead of like...3. So we say screw it and run a pathetic excuse at 4 rounds, cut to top 4 with cash payout. Everyone scrambles at the last minute to get a deck and sideboard together cause no one was expecting a tournament. I played the following list:

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// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
13 [10E] Island (1)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher

// Spells
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [NE] Daze
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [IA] Brainstorm

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I cobjobbed my sideboard out of Echoing Truth, Vedalken Shackles, Rootwater Thieves, and Propagandas because I really had nothing else to put into the board. Proved for a fun tournament.

Round 1: Steve N (Braves54321) with UG Madness.
There isn't much to say about this match other than game 1 I had more counters and an islandwalking Wake Thrasher. Game 2 was more him getting screwed on land while my fish were thriving.

Round 2: Jim P (MathMan) with W/u Jim Angel Stompy.
Game 1 consisted of some fetching and counterspelling Epochrasite's on my part while laying Lord and Thrasher early. Mom and Serra Avenger start making pro Blue blockers for my thrasher. Reej and another thrasher are met by Story Circle and an E.Angel ruins my day as I couldn't draw countermagic past the first daze and FoW.

Game 2: This game is rather fast. Turn 1 catcher, turn 2 adept, swinging in through an STP. I think I stopped taking notes at this point cause i just see his life total going down and it's not large enough drops to be Thrasher.

Game 3: Yeah, we drew. Suffice it to say, with me at 17 and him at 2, I had multiple Propagandas and an army (3 thrashers!), and he had a small army with a Mother of Runes and a Story Circle on blue. I missed my win a few times by forgetting that Reej could tap creatures, and didn't play out the cursecatchers/adepts in my hand aggressively enough to tap his army and swing through Story Circle for the win. Go me.

Round 3: Bre (B is for Big Job) with a cob-jobbed Goblin list.

A brief aside, he threw this together last minute with some questionable cardchoices that included maindeck shushers, and chokes from the board. I never stood a chance. Game 1 he killed my lackey blocker (LoA) while I was on the play, game 2 I literally drew 5 islands straight while he was building his army and had Chokes. I never stood a chance.

Round 4: Jake with a B/w Orhzov Aggro-Controlish deck.

Game 1: I don't have enough threats and draw nothing but lands, he easily swarms me with creatures I haven't seen since drafting ravnica block.

Game 2: More like it. Multiple Dazes and a FoW backup turn 2 LoA, turn 3 Thrasher, turn 4 thrasher. Cake walk.

Game 3: See game 2.

Final standing: 2-1-1. Fail.


Conclusion: There were quite a few times throughout the day that I wished Cursecatcher was a Tidal Warrior just so I could Islandwalk past blockers, but I agree that Warrior is kinda weak in the deck. The card that got boarded out the most was Back to Basics, because there really were no non-basics being played at this event as it was so spur of the moment. It got dropped for Propaganda most often, or Vedalken Shackles. I kept feeling like I wanted more threats/pressure, so I've been toying with Cold-Eyed Selkie in the back to basics spot but we'll see how that goes. Another thing I felt was that I didn't have enough draw. I could filter and dig a bit with Brainstorm and Top, but I didn't feel like there was enough raw Draw power. I'm not quite sure how to rectify that, but maybe actually playing a few more threats (Selkie since it draws, Waterfront bouncer as temporary maindeck bounce) will satisfy that lack of drawing power.

Did you find that Cursecatcher did well as a 1-drop for you?

With Countertop and Thrasher both in the deck, you could consider a shift like:
Cursecatcher -> Mothdust Changeling
B2B -> Prismwake Merrow

In the environement presented, I only sac'd Cursecatcher once. However, it did come in handy as a few opponents held back spells until they could pay off daze + catcher which gave me time to rail in. I could have probably made due with Tidal Warrior instead of Catcher and probably not noticed the difference except for getting in for more damage (thank you islandwalk.)

@ CorruptedAngel:

Regarding your list, I'd say cut a Daze in favour of a 4th Counterbalance. Seven free counters are the right number (as Hanni already pointed out in the former DAT thread), while you cannot have enough 'balances at any time. At least in the aggro control mirror.

What do you think of Riptide Pilferer and Threads of Disloyalty as sideboard options?

Great to see so many pick up the deck! =D

It is really fun to play (if you like aggro decks), go go "minions" spread the Merfolk to all of Europe and the US.

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Originally Posted by Hightower

Great to see so many pick up the deck! =D

It is really fun to play (if you like aggro decks), go go "minions" spread the Merfolk to all of Europe and the US.

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Yeah, let's spread the 'Folks !

@corruptedangel: I explain you why i play vial. I know that it may seem strange in my configuration which is full of 3 drops ( 7 ), but vial is really useful in this deck. I mean, the possibility to cast a turn 1-2 vial allowas us to "save " mana for the following turns and drop our bombs to slow down the game and control it. Imagine a turn 1 vial followed by counterbalance/ top, and some good drawing filters ( brainstorm and top above all): we can search for the creatures we need, trick the opponents in counters, and, in the while, to gain sufficient tempo to grow our Merfolks army. By the way, vial is also very synergic with Adept ( tap and draw without revealing anything, which sometimes is a problem...), to make our folks uncounterable, to do nice combat tricks ( vial LoA or reejerey after blockers decl. ), and somehow it is also good for THrasher itself ( vialing him EOT with a tapped out oppo midgame would assure us that he won't be killed so easy,while casting it at sorcery speed will surely meet a removal from a wise opponent). But i guess that you already knew these things...:smile:
If you allow me , i would recommend to fit some draw, even if you don't want to play vial ( it's difficult to rely only on adepts, unles you play the standstil version, but that relies on vial , :laugh:), and i ask you: do you really find cursecatcher to be that useful: i also played with him, but in a meta full of creatures ( or , in any case,of cheap instants/sorceries) like legacy, he doesn't seem to me to be great, while i think he'd have a more improtant role in vintage. Maybe he could be useful if he offers a "surprise effect " ( for example, vialing him ( sorry, i can't think without vial at this point :laugh: ) in resp to a removal ).
Tell me your viewpoint, please.

Cursecatcher is a 1-drop that can be sacced to bug Ichorid and be used to win counter-wars in combination with port and daze. Cursecatcher isn't worth playing without Daze and Port, imho, because it's together that they really shine.

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Originally Posted by Shimster

What do you think of Riptide Pilferer and Threads of Disloyalty as sideboard options?

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I'd pick seasinger over Threads, since it's a merfolk. But both are inferior to stuff like Blasts/crypts/echoing truth, because those are the kind of cards that drastically change the game post-board.

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Originally Posted by Elficidium

Cursecatcher is a 1-drop that can be sacced to bug Ichorid and be used to win counter-wars in combination with port and daze. Cursecatcher isn't worth playing without Daze and Port, imho, because it's together that they really shine.


I'd pick seasinger over Threads, since it's a merfolk. But both are inferior to stuff like Blasts/crypts/echoing truth, because those are the kind of cards that drastically change the game post-board.

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He asked for pilferer, tho one who discards the cards, not for seasinger... the force of habits :laugh: However, you are right, echoing truth is extremely useful against lots of deck (Ichorid and EtW combos above all). I play them MD and thery 've been always very useful in the drastic situations ( it comes to my mind when I face threats like deed or Moat and I have to save some of my folks from mass destruction or make my Non-fliers able to win...)

Somebody please explain to me why having a lot of Merfolk that cost 3 is an argument in favor of dropping Aether Vial? For me, the fact that I can set my Vials to 3 and confidently leave it there is exactly what I want. It has always been to my annoyance with Goblins that if the opponent manages to survive your first blitz, and your vial got to 4 or 5, it may sit unused for the rest of the game.

One more thing: precisely which decks do you want Back to Basics against? What do you expect it to do?

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Originally Posted by Finn

Somebody please explain to me why having a lot of Merfolk that cost 3 is an argument in favor of dropping Aether Vial? For me, the fact that I can set my Vials to 3 and confidently leave it there is exactly what I want. It has always been to my annoyance with Goblins that if the opponent manages to survive your first blitz, and your vial got to 4 or 5, it may sit unused for the rest of the game.

One more thing: precisely which decks do you want Back to Basics against? What do you expect it to do?

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In fact i'm not among the ones who think that charging vial @3 is a bad thing, even because the deck tends to have a controllish/disrupting approach in the early phases, so it's not true that vial makes us lose two turns because of the lack of 1-drops: in that turns we can go something else ( for example, the manadenial plan contempts to waste/stifle/port, and stifle costs 1, while the more particular version plays SDT, and CB, and brainstorm). Another thing: daze is useful, but also sometimes controproductive towards our game development; and here , vial is an efficient mate, because having an island undo can be balanced by "manaless " creatures, while , in the vial-less version, if you should play high costs merfolk ( reejerey and thrasher) and have to daze a concrete threat, you would lose the possibility to cast them the next turn.

I took Back to Basics MD especially to face those decks against which i felt merfolk to be particularrly weak: landstill above all, where a protected BtB can win the game ( along with a counterbalance always kept with a 3 cmc on the top if you fear Kgrip). Merfolk tends to be aggressive, but not like the ultra-aggro power of goblins, and so landstill somehow manages to catch us. I know that you could adfirm that the manadenial plan wrecks landstill in a more effective way, but A wise player can avoid stifles and, sometimes, fetch the ( few) basics at the right time ( at least, this is what I always saw.. :smile: ).
BtB seems to me to be a more " definitive " card.

Another two decks I noticed BtB is essential against are Aggro loam and The rock. Aggro loam wants to gain a huge land amount, and denying their mana is just amazing, it blocks most of the lftl engine and also aid a bad Devastating dreams to come ( which can be easily dazed/forced when his manabase is fucked and he has few resoures left to spend ).
About the Rock, well, the overnumber of mass removals (PDeed) and/or discarders and single removals ( Stp, Smother, vendetta, vindicate...) requires a varied manabase, so dual lands. I always found that the goal against those types of decks should be the one to deny their dangerous creatures early turns ( goyf, confidant), drop the CB ( which shines here) and afterwards begin to play our folks, when we are sure that they can be protected decently. Finally, just make them vindicate or spending mana on something, and Btb them.
Of course these are my considerations ( but they often worked against these decks) if you want to contest something you're welcome.

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Originally Posted by Finn

Somebody please explain to me why having a lot of Merfolk that cost 3 is an argument in favor of dropping Aether Vial? For me, the fact that I can set my Vials to 3 and confidently leave it there is exactly what I want. It has always been to my annoyance with Goblins that if the opponent manages to survive your first blitz, and your vial got to 4 or 5, it may sit unused for the rest of the game.

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Not saying that it's a reason against Vial at all, my questioning of it in the list above was that he is not running any 1-drops outside of Vial at all. As a Goblins player (well, former) in this format and having played Ravager for a while before the format change, I gotta admit I cannot stand playing an Aether Vial in a deck where it isn't going to do anything for two turns, minimum. It's a very nice asset to Merfolk in general, just like in goblins, but I believe the curve has to be appropriately built for it. I'd want to have at least some Turn 1 plays outside of Vial, a handful of 2 drops, and then park vial at three where our curve is the fullest. Also, arguments could be made for leaving Vial parked at 2 counters to drop LoAs and Adepts without fear of CB or Spellsnare and just playing out your 3-drops (cause hell, it's harder for most decks to CB a 3cc Card) but that's an entirely different point.

Long story short: I have nothing against Vial in this deck, nor do I believe a clogged 3cc slot is a reason against the card. I just didn't think it was worth it in his deck where he has no real curve so the Vial collects dust or a chance at being removed for 2 full turns.

Edit: Forgot to dicuss Cursecatcher. I'll be 100% honest, I was going to play Tidal Warrior in that slot but I left them at home. I wanted the warrior because, knowing the opponents around me, I knew there wouldn't be many Islands and I was hoping to sneak in some "I Win" off landing a Lord and beating face with a huge Thrasher. There were times where It would have been nice, but I don't feel it's necessary. Catcher bugs the hell out of decks like Ichorid and even some of the more tempo based decks that are built around a specific curve, as he (combined with daze, or port if you play it) throws their curve off a lot. I like him as a solid 1-drop beater that gets big, and messes with opponents minds. Speaking of Port, considering I've been highly debating B2B in my list lately, it's probably getting relegated to the board and I'll add some number of Wastes and Ports into the deck... Well, at least Wastes. I don't wanna open myself up to the Goblins Mull problem of too many Red mana symbols and not enough mountains in the opening hand.

Thank you, Piceli. That is a very clear argument. This is my reaction to the B2B part.

It seems to me that I will have Stifle in the same spot that you have B2B. Our land supply will be dramatically different as well, but that is part of this. Btw, if you are going to use all lands that produce blue, I have to recommend

Wistful Selkie
u/g u/g u/g
when this comes into play, draw a card
2/2
over Shapesharer, which I think is weak anyway.

Beyond that, I want to be organized about how we look at the question so we can resolve this issue once and for all if that is possible.

Back to Basics is particularly strong against
Landstill+variants
43land
Aggro-Loam
Bwg control
other decks that rely on too many colors

Back to Basics is weak against
Goblins
MUC
Burn
All Combo
WW

Stifle, Port, and Wasteland are particularly strong against
Landstill+variants
Bwg control
Threshold
Survival
Most combo (TES, Belcher, Fetch/Tendrils, not quite as good against Ichorid, but decent)
other decks that rely on too many colors

Stifle, Port, and Wasteland are weak against
MUC
Burn
WW

Naturally I expect others to contest where I think certain cards are strong or weak. But my major point is that Stifle is the right card. It is true that B2B can almost completely shut out certain opponents. But there are relatively few of them. It is much more common to have it stand in the opponent's way over a long time as a major headache because they have a few basics or Birds of Paradise or something. Well, Port, Waste, and Stifle do the same thing but to far more opponents. And Landstill is one of them. (Stifle is amazing in the Landstill matchup) And they hit earlier. Your ability to do damage is sufficient to finish them before they get out of your disruption in a lot of cases.

So then there is the issue of casting a 3-mana enchantment that does not affect board position. That is a very weak spot to be in.

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@CorruptedAngel

OK, that makes good sense. I think we are in agreement on just about everything. I did not think I was going to like Cursecatcher. But after playing him, I have found that he really is a pain for a lot of opponents. They commonly hold back their spells which is exactly what I want. Because of the Reejereys and Lords, he is a decent beater in most games. I have been pretty (not very) happy with him. And he plays a remarkable assist to the entire disruption package (Daze, Waste, Port, Stifle, Cursecatcher). Long and short - he is definitely better than Warrior, and I am keeping him indefinitely.

You will not be happy with Waterfront Bouncer. I have tried it, and the cards lost are too much of a burden.

Well Finn, thanks for having been so clear. I must tell you that the version with btb i am trying is new; i used to play the denial version , too, but sometimes i Doubted about the real effectiveness of rishadan port, and I also sometimes got angry because they got wasted int eh first turns and i was simply screwed: i tried to screw , and I got screwed :laugh: . I think that BtB must be run if you already know that your meta will be full of the deck you named, so it could be considered as a more "precise " solution, but it's also true for me that it's a more definitive ( or, if not, it's very near to be definitive) one.
Ports and wastes are effective, combined with stifle which is always polivalent, but they -port, in particular- lose effectiveness in the mid game and are a pain in the ass if the opponent doesn't play nonbasic / fetches (which sometimes happens).
Which configuration of port/wastes and stifles do you think it's better to offer a decent disruption but, at the same time, to avoid risking being screwed or having too much colorless mana ? ( You know , loA must be cast sometimes from hand, not always we are so lucky to get a Vial the first turns).
In other words, could you post me the lsit you appreciate more/yu're testing now ? I want to see.

BtW, i always knew that Shapeshareer is too slow, but sometimes it can be also effective. What's true in any case, is that I never managed to copy a goyf or a merfolks of mine - always got plowshared /stifled. :mad:
Selkie is cute, but cc3 becomes very high along with the reejereys and the thrashers.
Do you think Waterfront is worth some slots ? isn't it too slow ? And cursecatcher really manages to be a decent creature for the disruption ?
And never tried in consideration Counterbalances and /or tops ?
Please answer, I wanna get some considerations.. merfolks can be played in so many different variants that I would like to get a definitive solution, especially the version which shines against the "tiers1" but also can be very flexible against any deck 8 including the randoms ). :laugh:
Long live merfolks !
LOL

I really like the direction in which you're taking the merfolk archetype in legacy. Damn, I haven't even playtested the deck yet and I'm already helplessly in love with it. It's TRIBAL, it's MONOBLUE, it's AGGRO and it doesn't feature a quartet of Tarmogoyfs - what's not to love?

Have you considered changing the name of the thread to something a little more descriptive? Preferrably without typos. The deck deserves a lot better.

@Piceli, this is what I will have built for this weekend:

4 Aether Vial
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Wake Thrasher - had to get them from starcity
4 Tidal Courier
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
14 Island

sb:
3 Seasinger
1 Stifle
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Repeal
3 Echoing Truth


Considering how much attention Goblin Ringleader received about it being broken, I don't know why more people are not using Tidal Courier. I have been very happy with him. Can an opponent to this guy's inclusion please tell me why you don't like him? Anyway, I have Courier in for now, but I will be testing 2 Cold-Eyed Selkie and 2 Repeal in that spot in the near future just because I want to try out the Selkie. The removal of the Banneret should cut down significantly on the crazy explosive turns. But I am banking on Thrasher more than making up for that in terms of hitting power.

I never tried Counter/Top myself, although I am pretty well set against Brainstorm after watching Dragon Stompy make Threshold and Dreadnought decks cry. I don't know that there is room considering that a tribal deck really wants to have a lot of creatures. And then the deck certainly loses a lot of speed to do that. Maybe though. Can it be successful with just Tops and Counterbalances with no support cards?

@sadface, I think the name is about as descriptive as you are going to get. And I tried to correct the spelling error in the title. But it seems to be hard coded somewhere. We need an admin to do it.

^ Finn, I feel Goblin Ringleader takes all the praise because of his synergy with the speed of goblins in general. With a Warchief out, you get a 2/2 haste, a potential 4 card draw, and then possibly even a big Piledriver all for the cost of a Ringleader without the Warchief. Without the Warchief, his having Haste allows him to sneak through wins after a Wrath or Deed has cleared the board.

But as for Tidal Courier, the Merfolk don't really have that same speed advantage. He does have potential to be a good card drawing engine, but since you're already mono blue I would prefer to take advantage of the other draw spells available, such as Fact or Fiction. Merfolk don't have the muscle to pull off wins with 4 mana creatures IMO, and I feel they should instead try to put out their smaller creatures first and then try to control the board in the mid-game to quickly pull off a win. Also, being 1/2 for 4 mana with a mana-depleting ability to gain Flying is not synergetic with Merfolk. Aether Vial does help though.

Would any of you consider splashing just one color? If you do, I think you should consider this UW Merfolk deck that placed 4th in a 46 person Japanese tournament:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18568

4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Sygg, River Guide

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial

4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
4 Mutavault
1 Plains
4 Tundra

Sideboard
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Disenchant
2 Hydroblast
3 Chill
3 Mind Harness
3 Tormod's Crypt

The deck looks very straightforward on paper with several 4 of's, a solid manabase that doesn't rely too heavily on nonbasics, and all the non-creature spells have proven to be good, so consistency should not be a problem.

The deck is truly a Fish deck, since it uses the fish people and looks to get early threats on the board backed up by a Standstill. The white splash is minimal, only used for Swords to Plowshares (so necessary when your opponent matches your early threats with one of his own), plus the Syggs, which have the 2/2 for 2 body and the ability to push through Merfolk to win the game. This is basically the only W you need mainboard.

One might look at this list and wonder why they would play this over something such as Threshold. Well, thanks to the Lorwyn block, Merfolk now have added utility in addition to their ability to smash face.

Cursecatcher, I feel, is the one drop that Merfolk have been waiting for. He is an extra turn against Wrath or Pyroclasm, and even then you can still follow up with Daze to frustrate your opponent. He is a pain for Ichorid and several other combo decks, giving you the time needed to dig to other counterspells. And as CorruptedAngel already stated, he screws with your opponent's head. Having that extra little fear sitting out there on a stick can give you enough time to prepare your army of little blue men. Together with Standstill, Cursecatcher makes for a nice deck that punishes the hesitant opponent. Whereas other one drops such as Tidal Warrior can make your beaters unblockable with Islandwalk, this requires that Lord of Atlantis also be in play. I would rather just play solid creatures that can hold their own rather than just sneaking in the win, which brings us to the next great thing about Merfolk: Reejerey.

Merrow Reejerey is the card that wins the games. No need to explain the +1/+1 bonus, but the second ability is so often overlooked. After your opponent breaks your Standstill, you will have a fresh supply of cards and a perfect time to lay out your beats. Reejerey is kind of like the Warchief for Merfolk, since by untapping a land for each Merfolk you play you are reducing the cost of each by one. Additionally, you can save a single Merfolk in your hand for the following turn and then tap out their blockers or any man-lands to proceed with the kill.

About Wake Thrasher, I haven't tested him yet, but I don't like how he becomes an overcosted 1/1 when it's your opponent's turn. I might possibly try and replace the Syggs with him later.

Sorry if I stated stuff that seems too obvious for a lot of you, but I want to present this splashed, more aggressive version of Merfolk, as I feel it can do well in an environment where the number of other aggro decks have started to decrease.

Linkin Pac: I agree with all that you say except that I think that the white splash which is not worth and that I think that cursecatcher is not good.

Tidal Courier is not good imo because it will be dead in your hand for a long time and when it gets online it's only a 1.6-card drawer in average, when ringleader 2.2-card drawer in gob and it can be cheated a lot with lackey/warchief (and upping vial to 4 is not that much difficult, since vial is always @3 in gob, when it's @2 in merfolks). As a card advantage engine, I prefer standstill (or even Selkie and U/B Sygg) by far.

I don't understand neither why you reduce the Land Destruction slots. I would understand that you try to build a LDless merfolk build in order to play selkies, back to basics (or manlands) and counterbalance, but I really can't understand the idea behind reducing this effect.

Plus why do you play repeal and echoing truth in SB over Rushing River?

@ Finn:
I appreciate your list a lot, except for the Couriers. It's not that I don't like that card, seriously, but I expect him to d great things in a more goblinesque version of merfolks, as Hightower's one. I think that Linkin Pac has got the point, which is the fact that goblins are two times more speed than merfolks and they can get a huger potential from ringleader; furthermore, they have more "mana cheaters-.reducers " ( think at warchief , lackey, vial: 12 cards) which can be tutored easily ( matron). But merfolks.. are more slow, their quality as singles is superior but their explosivity is , certainly, not at those levels. In a list without Bannerets and without at least 27-28 creatures, it could be obtimal, but in yours I think that there could be greater choices for the slots Courier occupies. I am thinking about, for example, card drawers ( as you mentioned, Selkie could be an interesting choice- even if I personally don't like her at all-, but the nuts would be to fit brainstorm , which is always the best drawers in every blue deck, also in aggro-control, everyone knows it) or, something polivalent, bouncers. I guess that a couple of echoing truths or , maybe, rushing river could give us a surplus of protection against serious threats on the field, and would also allow us to put in action nice tricks ( bounce your threats MD, standstill in my turn, while my vials allow me to drop My bombs and kill you leaving my mana open, i.e. you break standstill? draw 3 , counter). Test these ones and tell me if Courier is stil worth partecipating the list.


I was wondering the other day: has anyone noted a little sinergy between Thrasher and vial ? I mean, if we have a thrasher in the field and some vials, we could tap them " voidly " ( vial says that you may put a creature card... in play, you can also not put anything and just tap), maybe make them waste stifles or kgrip for nothing:laugh:, so He can get the bonuses next turn. I think that this works, am i right ? +1/+1 or +2/+2 is always good...

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

I was wondering the other day: has anyone noted a little sinergy between Thrasher and vial ? I mean, if we have a thrasher in the field and some vials, we could tap them " voidly " ( vial says that you may put a creature card... in play, you can also not put anything and just tap), maybe make them waste stifles or kgrip for nothing:laugh:, so He can get the bonuses next turn. I think that this works, am i right ? +1/+1 or +2/+2 is always good...

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Yea it works; i was already did it; as you said, the bigger the better...

Wake Thrasher is a must. It's really better than Piledriver in this deck, cause it survives Goyf in the attack phase. It puts a serious clock alone.

I'm finding Bannerets more and more unimpressive, so I was looking for another decent 2 cc drop and found Riptide Pilferer. I tried a couple matches with him and it was good. Did anyone test him?

Other less appealing options I found are:
Stonybrook Angler - The ability is mana intensive and not overwhelming.
Waterfront Bouncer - Card disadvantage but fishy-like.
Darting Merfolk - It may sound clunky, but it provides an eternal block and a recurring threah against control in face of a board sweeper.
Overtaker - The ability is too mana intensive.
Voodalian Merchant - card selection is good, but it's not a great body associated with it.

I did not consider the UU merfolks cause they are not easily castable on the manabase (besides vial) and not gamebreaking for their cost.

This is the list I'm playing now, with 26 creatures:
// Lands
14 [BD] Island (3)
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [REW] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [U] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
4 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
2 [MOR] Stonybrook Banneret
4 [PLC] Riptide Pilferer

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [NE] Daze

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [US] Annul

Well, GreenOne ( italiano come me ! :laugh: ) , 4 Selkies seem to be too many. Have you ever considered to put a banneret more and the couriers ? I think that your list, which tends to cast many many merfoks, should run 3-4 Bannerets ( too useful for your many merfolks which include colorless in their costs ) and, yes, courier, useful to create a huge hive.
For the folks, i think pilferer is quite slow, but if you find comfortable with him, it's a good thing; never considered some shapesharers as ulterior pumpers ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

Well, GreenOne ( italiano come me ! :laugh: ) , 4 Selkies seem to be too many. Have you ever considered to put a banneret more and the couriers ? I think that your list, which tends to cast many many merfoks, should run 3-4 Bannerets ( too useful for your many merfolks which include colorless in their costs ) and, yes, courier, useful to create a huge hive.
For the folks, i think pilferer is quite slow, but if you find comfortable with him, it's a good thing; never considered some shapesharers as ulterior pumpers ?

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I found Courier just bad when you already have CA machines running. It's also a bad costed body, it makes you raise your vial to 4 (and you don't want it) and I never used it's secondary ability.
I like having utility creatures on the board: if the opponent is trying to race he'll get punished with Pilferer and Selkie. If he doesn't attack we're building an army better than he does. Also, selkie is just busted with 8 pump effects and so much blue in the format.

I did not consider Shapesharer but it sounds good!

The thing about Courier is also that he's good vs Control, like Truffle Shuffle, Landstill w/ Deed etc. (which can be a tough matchup)

Courier lets you recover after a board sweeper, and puts pressure at the same time. Unlike Selkie he gives you the cards right away, which is what makes him good..

- My 2 cents

I guess that another italian partecipating to this thread shouldn't hurt :wink: So, I just purchased the last cards that I's missing for a good legacy deck that uses merfolk (or should I say tritoni? :tongue: ) as a tribe.
I still have to really mount the deck, and I'm still wondering about some cards. This is a skeleton of the list that I've in mind:


4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow
4 Adept
3 Wake thrasher
3 Cold-eyed selkie

4 Vial
4 Force
4 Daze

Comments/suggestions are welcomed.
I'd like to run some Psionic blasts, as one drawback of a merfolk deck seems the lack of removals. Bounce are good, sure, but they don't really eliminate enemy critters... what do you think? Should I use jitte instead, or someone else already got a better idea?

Ciao a tutti!

You'd better play lands if you want to play some spells other than Force of Will.

Well you have 26 open slots. You may want to take the mana denial route with 13/14 islands, 4*wastelands, 4*ports, 4*stifles and your deck is full. The problem with this version is that you may be missing CA for the long games and that you may be missing some power for the early game.

Or take a more aggroish version with more thrashers, less lands, and probably more CA. The problem with this version is that it has no relevant protection against combo, and it can be wrecked easily by a removal such as wrath of god, deed or even EE (the first version could protect itself with MD and stifles).

Lands? Really? I never thought of that! :wink:

I don't think that ports are a very good idea; in goblin you can abuse them while popping creatures in play with lackey and vial, with a special discount from warchief... in our case all merfolks cost two mana on average, and onestly using a port after the 4th tourn is ok but a bit "mhe".
I mean, if was searching for land destruction I wouldn't play merfolk probably, no?

Stifles are interesting, but they are metagame-dependant; personally I love them, but I'm just a bit unsure if they really belong here. I guess I've to test them.
What about Back to basics? Is someone still experimenting with that?

Thanks for the advices!

Well, my dear Daeniel, at the beginning I thought , me too, that rishadan port would have been antisynergic with merfolks and too slow to be used, but I tested and eventually understood how it is good, along with wasteland and stifle. And don't forget that you can begin to port since the first turns, if you have landed Vial, which will asure you to cheat mana in a great way. I played against threshold UGB three hours ago, and those three cards made the difference: waste, port green mana ( without which they can't play their "ciccioni" , goyf and 'goose) and stifle fetchlands is a must. In other case, merfolk wouldn't be enough strong to fight head to head with these tiers1. And, as Finn suggested, stifles, wastes and , in weaker measure, are really strong against most of the tiers1 ( read : standstill, aggro loam.. also against fetchland tendrils they can be good ).
Merfolks, on their side, provide an incredible dose of aggressivity, combined with many interesing disrupting/ drawing engines; the 8 "pumpers", along with cursecathcer and Adept, are what we need to get huge creatures able also to race (small) goyfs, Crushers, Nantuko shades, etc... Blue, of course, Must need its counters , so FoW, and daze are an autoinclude for an aggrocontrol; for what concerns back to basics, I have a list which relies also on it along with CBalance+ Top, but perhaps it's true that wastes, ports and stifle offer a faster and "polivalent " manadenial ( because stifle can be used in many and many situations, and it's always gorgeous, especially against storm and mass removals-pernicious deed ci incula a sangue).
Some bouncers to get rid of dangerous situations, and you should be able to get a very good list of Merfolks. Maybe you could run psionic blasts instead of bouncers, but i Don't know if Blasts are so good in this list... Merfolk usually procure enough damage, a "blue burn " tool would be almost exclusively for the creatures.. and since goyf could be the only problems for tiny merfolks without thier island-walk gainer, Psionic blast wouldn't be that useful: goyf is usually a 4/5, and you should wait 3 turns to shoot Blast ( and it would be Dazed surely :D ).

In my testing so far, Port has particularly good synergy with Thrashers (much moreso than Wasteland). Wake Thrasher in general has been nothing short of amazing. Just about every time it has been in play it has been the most important creature on either side. I would go so far as to say that it is a gigantic step forward for the deck.

I think I am ready to remove Courier again. Everything you all are saying is essentially true. I will not be using Brainstorm in its place though. I think not using fetchlands is a big boost, and Brainstorm without them is just silly. I really think it will be 2x Selkie and 2x Repeal or something similar.

I've actually been considering dropping the Fetchlands from my build, adding in Wastelands and Ports (possibly, I still hate the idea of having too many colorless mana producers in a deck that likes having so much blue mana) and then replacing Brainstorm with Ponder. It's a cantrip that filters but also has an inherent shuffle effect to help top out as I do run Counter-Top in my build. I'm trying to think of some other decent cantrips or pure draws I could use in that spot. I was thinking running Rushing River, Echoing Truth, or some other bounce spell (not Chain of Vapor, I REFUSE to have my CoV chained and hit a Thrasher), but I think I'd miss having some form of draw outside of the filtering provided by Top.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

I'm finding Bannerets more and more unimpressive, so I was looking for another decent 2 cc drop and found Riptide Pilferer. I tried a couple matches with him and it was good. Did anyone test him?

Other less appealing options I found are:
Stonybrook Angler - The ability is mana intensive and not overwhelming.
Waterfront Bouncer - Card disadvantage but fishy-like.
Darting Merfolk - It may sound clunky, but it provides an eternal block and a recurring threah against control in face of a board sweeper.
Overtaker - The ability is too mana intensive.
Voodalian Merchant - card selection is good, but it's not a great body associated with it.

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Arctic Merfolk may be worth considering. After combat, it can return Silvergill Adepts to be a 2/2 and provide card advantage, and with Vial, they save creatures from removal.

Although they are never dead, a 1/1 for 1U is terrible. They may be too conditional to work, but with the synergy they have with both Vial and Silvergill Adept, I am surprised that they were not at least talked about at some point. Perhaps as a 3- of?

I thought that arctic merfolk were one of the worst cards ever printed. I'd honnestly prefer Dream Stalker, Manowar or even Cavern Harpy to that crap. Being a merfolk is not enough to make it better than those cards.

CorrAngel > although I'm a big defender of Rushing River in merfolks, I would not advise you to play them because you play only 18 lands and no standstill. Stick with echoing truth or boomerang if you want some bounce.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

In my testing so far, Port has particularly good synergy with Thrashers (much moreso than Wasteland). Wake Thrasher in general has been nothing short of amazing. Just about every time it has been in play it has been the most important creature on either side. I would go so far as to say that it is a gigantic step forward for the deck.

I think I am ready to remove Courier again. Everything you all are saying is essentially true. I will not be using Brainstorm in its place though. I think not using fetchlands is a big boost, and Brainstorm without them is just silly. I really think it will be 2x Selkie and 2x Repeal or something similar.

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Why do you think that not using fetchland is a big boost ? I took 4 Polluted Deltas and try them with 3x brainstorm, I'm quite satisfied but sometimes I don't know how to play with fetchlands ( fearing an opponent's stifle) and I noticed that often they cause a turn loss because of this. Sometimes I'm also a bit reluctant about the lifeloss ( I know that this could be a n00b thing, but if often happens that those 1-2 points are essential to stay alive) Could you show me your viewpoint about fetchlands in Merfolks, i.e Are they useful or not to you ?

As a general matter, in a monocolor deck with no library manipulation, fetchlands are bad. I personnally have no idea about the comparison between full islands and brainstorm + fetchlands. It must be highly dependent on your metagame: burn, sligh, aggro, chalice, counterbalance, moon effects and stifles are advocating against BS+fetches but BS+fetches are better against the rest of the field, and most importantly against Ichorid or combo, id est decks against which you want to see your SB very early in the game.

Thank you for your avices, mr Maveric, I'll take them in consideration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

Arctic Merfolk may be worth considering. After combat, it can return Silvergill Adepts to be a 2/2 and provide card advantage, and with Vial, they save creatures from removal.

Although they are never dead, a 1/1 for 1U is terrible. They may be too conditional to work, but with the synergy they have with both Vial and Silvergill Adept, I am surprised that they were not at least talked about at some point. Perhaps as a 3- of?

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Kicker does not work with vial. Arctic merfolk just sucks.

Is there any chance to use a Vial/Standstill/Mutavault build? The idea's been tossed around a bit, but I don't think anyone ever reached any consensus. One problem I can see is that we need to get dudes from CMC 1 through 3 into play, so it might be tough. On the other hand, we're likely more prepared for it than our opponents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Wake Thrasher is a must. It's really better than Piledriver in this deck, cause it survives Goyf in the attack phase. It puts a serious clock alone.

I'm finding Bannerets more and more unimpressive, so I was looking for another decent 2 cc drop and found Riptide Pilferer. I tried a couple matches with him and it was good. Did anyone test him?

Other less appealing options I found are:
Stonybrook Angler - The ability is mana intensive and not overwhelming.
Waterfront Bouncer - Card disadvantage but fishy-like.
Darting Merfolk - It may sound clunky, but it provides an eternal block and a recurring threah against control in face of a board sweeper.
Overtaker - The ability is too mana intensive.
Voodalian Merchant - card selection is good, but it's not a great body associated with it.

---

Have you considered Rootwater Thief? I don't remember if it's been considered before in this thread, but RftG your opponent's Tarmogoyfs has got to count for something. Plus, the evasion ability is cheap and the body is decent for the cost and its other abilities.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CorruptedAngel

I've actually been considering dropping the Fetchlands from my build, adding in Wastelands and Ports (possibly, I still hate the idea of having too many colorless mana producers in a deck that likes having so much blue mana) and then replacing Brainstorm with Ponder. It's a cantrip that filters but also has an inherent shuffle effect to help top out as I do run Counter-Top in my build. I'm trying to think of some other decent cantrips or pure draws I could use in that spot. I was thinking running Rushing River, Echoing Truth, or some other bounce spell (not Chain of Vapor, I REFUSE to have my CoV chained and hit a Thrasher), but I think I'd miss having some form of draw outside of the filtering provided by Top.

---

If you can resolve a Counterbalance in the first few turns, Ancestral Vision doesn't seem too bad. Counter-Top can protect it when it resolves a few turns down the line, and your only other turn-one power play is typically Vial, so...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Is there any chance to use a Vial/Standstill/Mutavault build? The idea's been tossed around a bit, but I don't think anyone ever reached any consensus. One problem I can see is that we need to get dudes from CMC 1 through 3 into play, so it might be tough. On the other hand, we're likely more prepared for it than our opponents.

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Surely, standstill+ vial is a great sinergy to be played, but it seems that everyone has abandoned mutavault ( i tried them and were amazing, but I realized that they aren't so necessary: they would be surplus damage, where some Wake thrasher can do the same jobs and in a safer way, maybe - mutavaults is often wasted ... furthermore, it costs too much money :tongue: ).
At this moment, I 'm playing with the following list, which I'll bring ina small torunament:

lands 18
4 polluted deltas
4 wasteland
3 ports
7 islands

creatures 18
4 LoA
4 Reejerey
4 Adept
3 Wake thrasher
3 Cursecatcher

Spells 24
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Vials
4 Standstill
3 brainstorm
2 Echoing truths

Sideboard: haven't decided yet but it will be about
crypts
chill
propaganda ( perhaps)
pithing needle
divert or energy flux

As you can see, the standtill / vial sinergy is always great in Merfolks, because it allows us to develop the manabase, play our creatures freely and, at the same time, to destroy opponen't s one ( i play wastes and ports). Perhaps, you could say that 4 of 'stills are too much, but I always found myself comfortable with them ( often just dropped 1-2 folks even without vial, beaten my opponent with damage+manadenial and waited for him to break standstill to get additional counters/ creatures to finish the job). You can also bounce something EOT and standstill the game with a creature in play.

Just a question... Why isn't anyone using the 1cc change land type Merfolks? Reef Shaman or Tidal Warrior ensures a Selkie hit, or possibly a huge Wake Thrasher with a Lord of Atlantis out. They also add to the mana denial theme, particularly Ree Shaman of course.

Also, why no Jitte? Is the deck too streamlined to use it?

I've toyed around a bit with the concept, and I've also played AGAINST the deck a number of times - and, sadly, always beat it. The main problem I see for it is the lack of answers to bigger creatures, and I'm not sure if Thrasher can remedy this.

So, I've tried to build a very streamlined version of the 'folk. For me, the biggest bonus of them is to churn out a steady stream of creatures that eventually get bigger, with some disruption in the background. To exploit that strength, I play neither the mana denial, nor CBalance, nor Standstill, as I think they take away from the focus of the deck, as you use your mana to play cards in order to gain control, where you could play beaters. I could be wrong on this, as obviously other people have put more effort into the deck...

I've decided to go for the white splash in order to solve the problem of bigger creatures, and also put in cantrips which are too strong not to be used, especially considering the lack of one-drops. Splashing DOES make you vulnerable to Wasteland and Moon, but especially Wasteland is no big deal...fast decks tend to do well against it, and Flooded Strand can fetch a Plains if need be.


8 Fetches
5 Island
4 Tundra
1 Plains

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Reejerey
4 Adept
4 Wake Thrasher
3 Sygg, River Guide
3 Mother of Runes

4 Force
4 Daze
2 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

3 Swords to Plowshares


Swords and Mother can take care of opposing Goyfs/Vores/Crushers, and Mother can also protect key beaters like Lords and Trashers from removal. Sygg is a 2/2 for 2 with a good midgame ability, which I think is good.

White also opens up sideboard option, like dealing with enchantments and artifacts (Serenity might shine here), and Meddling Mage. If you have lots of Goblins and Dragon Stompy, even Absolute Law.

Try it out !