[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

For those running Consuming Vapors as a 1-of or 2-of in their sideboard, have you considered running Phyrexian Metamorph instead? Same "sorcery" speed, same mana cost (Metamorph actually comes out faster if you can afford the 2 life), and it accomplishes the same primary goal of getting rid of Emrakul, Progenitus. Although Vapors can net you life and possibly net card advantage (assuming your opponent has another creature in play for Rebound to hit), Metamorph has a bit more versatility and with SFM+Batterskull running rampant, having your own "Batterskull" may not be the worst thing in attrition based games.

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1. For Emrakul, I think Diabolic Edict is better. You need to answer him ASAP, if they get one swing in it's pretty much GG. And with Show and Tell he's likely coming down earlier than turn 4.
2. For Progenitus, Perish is better because you'll hit everything in RUG/Bant.
3. [edit: NVM you are correct, it can copy the artifact and give you a germ.]

Given how the new metagame is shaping up, I think there are a few sideboard cards that need to be strongly considered:
-Null Rod answers Painter Stone effectively, as well as completely hosing MUD and Affinity and other random artifact-based decks. It also has utility against any deck using Stone Forge Mystic. I would run 2-3 at your next tournament if you suspect you would see any of these decks.
-Graveyard Hate, in the form of Crypt, Relic, Spellbomb, Extirpate, or Surgical Extraction is pretty much a necessity if you expect to see Dredge or the combo decks relying on graveyard interaction (Cephalid Breakfast, Pattern of Rebirth/Hulk). I would run at the minimum 3 pieces. There was a period of time when GY hate wasn't really essential for this deck, but with the upswing of blue control decks, I'd expect to see more people opting to play Dredge and possibly other GY strategies.
-Lategame bombs such as Sower of Temptation or Consuming Vapors will make aggro matchups a bit easier to handle in addition to more standard cheap removal. Ideally you want to set up a situation where you've staved off the first wave, have a Goyf to block and a Stalker to attack. Then with your bombs you can turn a losing board position around.
-Mass removal dependent on your metagame. I've been loving Pernicious Deed because it has so much utility, but if you expect a ton of Merfolk Llawan is a great choice, and against the RUG/Bant/Zoo decks, Perish is better. 2 Slots minimum.

But my question was re: replacing Consuming Vapors, specifically, with Phyrexian Metamorph as the majority of players run Vapors as anti-Emrakul and anti-Progenitus tech.

And as you pointed out, Perish doesn't really hit Emrakul while Edict doesn't ensure that Progenitus will die, thus, you're going to devote twice as many cards for those matchups while Metamorph answers both decks while taking up the least amount of precious SB space.

Arsenal, you should be posting back in the Rock thread, jeez :P

What did you guys think of the Hatfield article saying the TA was falling behind? I have the deck built, and I'm just wondering how to not fall behind against Aggro and dedicated Control.

-Matt

Matt, I think part of the problem is that their analysis didn't differentiate between the 'classic' tempo list (4 stalker 4 goyf and stifles) and the UBg Thresh list with Dark Confidant. The latter deck seems to struggle even more against aggro (Merfolk is still a tough matchup for both of course).

I played the stifle version and made day 2 at providence, finishing in 61st. I know I saw at least two other guys rocking the stifle build on day 2, but I didn't personally see any of the Confidant builds. I think there are metagames where the more controlling Confidant version is better, but against a big field I'd rathe be packing Tombstalker and Stifle.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

But my question was re: replacing Consuming Vapors, specifically, with Phyrexian Metamorph as the majority of players run Vapors as anti-Emrakul and anti-Progenitus tech.

And as you pointed out, Perish doesn't really hit Emrakul while Edict doesn't ensure that Progenitus will die, thus, you're going to devote twice as many cards for those matchups while Metamorph answers both decks while taking up the least amount of precious SB space.

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It's really hard to effectively answer every matchup with only 15 slots. I can understand your reasoning for metamorph in an unknown meta to save space, but I think it's suboptimal to the other options if you have some idea of what to expect. But I haven't really played the card enough to make a fair judgment. What does the rest of your Sb look like? And what about your main deck?

had quite alot written up about sideboarding in general and merfolk in specific. But it has all been said already so i reccomend reading a few pages back. I like to avoid narrow sideboard cards for matchups where you don't need them. TA has many matchups that are close to unloosable, focus your slots on the ones that matter, particularly merfolk, midrange, and possibly landstill.

With regards to landstill, what is people's experience with the matchup and the sideboarding on both sides? I am considering a thoughtseize, V clique package akin to that used in BUG landstill in concession to landstill and the new RUG order deck (i really want to be able to board out force against them)

then my landstill plan would be something like
-4 removal
-3 tombstalker
+2 Jace
+1 loam
+2 Seize
+2 V. Clique

Alternatively
-4 Removal
-4 Force
+2 Jace
+1 Loam
+2 Seize
+2 V.Clique
+1 Spell Pierce

The entire board would be something along the lines of
2xDeed
2xJace
2xSower
2xGhastly Demise
1xLoam
2xSeize
2xV.Clique
1xPulse
1xSpell Pierce

With the loose spots probably being the loam and the pierce.

second wcm8's comments on the hatfield analysis. Also the note on having an idea of the expected meta. The beautifull thing with Team America is that there are whole swaths of possible legacy decks that you can almost never lose to, so you get to focus your sideboard on the few matchups where you have (admittedly big) problems.

I would for example never board a single card directly against Emrakul, and i if i was to board against progenitus i would probably board vapours or perish which is usefull in the midrange matchups, or spell pierce and thoughtseize which are usefull against control.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

I played the stifle version and made day 2 at providence, finishing in 61st. I know I saw at least two other guys rocking the stifle build on day 2, but I didn't personally see any of the Confidant builds. I think there are metagames where the more controlling Confidant version is better, but against a big field I'd rathe be packing Tombstalker and Stifle.

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I played the Stifle version as well at Providence and went 6-3 with 3 byes though :( I beat Junk, Team Italia and Merfolk (I'm X-0 against merfolk so far with my SB plan) I lost to Martin Juza with U/W mystic control, Mono-U control with MD Back to Basics, and burn with PoP. So I'm thinking with better matchups I could have made Day2...

I dropped the deck afterwards and started playing NO RUG but I'm thinking maybe I should come back to it... Big tournament coming up soon and I can't decide what to play!

Is it possible to have the best of both worlds? As in, running Tombstalker and Confidant? It seems really greedy, but I love both cards so much I'm having trouble choosing. Obviously I wouldn't run 4 Stalkers, but I've been running 2-3 just fine, with the rest being very similar (Wastelands, Stifles MM, no Jaces main, etc.). Thoughts?

-Matt

Matt,

In testing I've found Stifle to be generally awkward in Confidant builds, mostly because of the aggro match up. If you're looking to play Confidants with more manabase disruption I'd recommend trying a 4 Bayou + 2 Basics build with Choke in the board. It is a beating in the current meta and helped me day 2 at Providence.

I prefer Terravore to Tombstalker myself but both have their merits.

Jim

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Originally Posted by Goddik

second wcm8's comments on the hatfield analysis. Also the note on having an idea of the expected meta. The beautifull thing with Team America is that there are whole swaths of possible legacy decks that you can almost never lose to, so you get to focus your sideboard on the few matchups where you have (admittedly big) problems.

I would for example never board a single card directly against Emrakul, and i if i was to board against progenitus i would probably board vapours or perish which is usefull in the midrange matchups, or spell pierce and thoughtseize which are usefull against control.

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Which matchups would you consider unlooseable and therefore not board anything?

I understand that landstill and merfolk is a very difficult matchup, but why do you consider midrange decks a big problem? Post-board 6 removal spells for KoR + the normal disruption can get the job done...?
..or how do you define midrange (example decks...)?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Goddik

With regards to landstill, what is people's experience with the matchup and the sideboarding on both sides? I am considering a thoughtseize, V clique package akin to that used in BUG landstill in concession to landstill and the new RUG order deck (i really want to be able to board out force against them)

then my landstill plan would be something like
-4 removal
-3 tombstalker
+2 Jace
+1 loam
+2 Seize
+2 V. Clique

Alternatively
-4 Removal
-4 Force
+2 Jace
+1 Loam
+2 Seize
+2 V.Clique
+1 Spell Pierce

The entire board would be something along the lines of
2xDeed
2xJace
2xSower
2xGhastly Demise
1xLoam
2xSeize
2xV.Clique
1xPulse
1xSpell Pierce

With the loose spots probably being the loam and the pierce.

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Against those different Lansdstill versions, i bring 2 Life from the Loam and 2 Thrun.
Thrun works wonder against them : he annihilates Jace and run over their factories.
Loam allows to fight their crucible of worlds : recurring wastelands while Thrun is beating down.
I am also thinking to add 2 extirpates to deal with their low threat-density.


@maelstrom pulse : i agree with you : it sometimes shines, being an all-round answer and being a 2 for 1 in some case. but i often miss the instant speed.
i've seen some lists running putrefy. it deals with most of annoyins things we want to get rid of except for jace and humility. has anyone tested with this card or is it too narrow for this deck ?

Midrange is mostly a specific reference to the gw deck which is a very real problem. Games usually go to attrition fights that a deck packing stifle and force has a very hard time winning. Team America is naturally weak against decks that have a very unique focus, i.e. GW and merfolk both focus exclusively on laying more creatures than you have removal for. Games against the natural order bant/RUG decks can also end up like this, though they are easier to handle.

near unloosable matchups (i.e. it is possible to loose, but you should win the vast majority of the time): Most combo decks

Thopter combo (technically a control deck, but the matchup is really lopsided if you try it out)
Breakfast
ANT

High tide (used to be hard pre-misstep), painted stone (REB could be an issue here) and Hive Mind should also all be highly favourable, though they are generally much better at struggling through your hate. I find hitting brainstorms with stifle/MM at the right times is often a key part of these matchups. There are also few cards you really want to board out as your only "bad" cards are your creature removal.


As an example: The starcitygames open:

There are 7 out of the 16 decks in the last starcity games open where i would consider the maindeck good enough for me to only board stuff that is incidentally good in other matchups. Sure i usually have stuff like spell pierce, but that is for control rather than combo.

That leaves 3 hardcore control decks, 2 Fish decks, 1 NO RUG, 1 Dredge, 1 mono red and 1 metal worker deck as potential issues.

Ultimately it is a question of what you expect to have to face


@Oxmo, good comment on the Thrun's, it might just be that i have to bite the bullet and run the guy. he does what vendillion clique does in the above list, just better. It would leave me with a slot less to board in against RUG, but that should be possible.

@ sdematt -

I love The Rock, but out of all the Hymn to Tourach decks, I feel Team America is the most "fun" for me to play. Like, there's literally no better feeling than getting into a counter war with my opponent over something, then following it up with a "Hymn you?" and seeing my opponent's face melt.

@ wcm8

My current list:

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Go for the Throat
2 Dismember
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Stifle
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacomb
1 Bayou

SIDEBOARD:

3 Spell Pierce
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Perish
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Did you think about cutting 2 daze 1 ponder 1 stiffle and adding +2 lands +2 jaces.
I will make your deck just a little slower, but will highly improve you perfomance mid-late game, imo.

That list looks pretty good, but I'd add 1 Bayou for my personal taste. I like lands.

@ Arsenal

As long as you keep posting in Rock, that's fine :)

-Matt

Why the BEB? I can't think of any red cards that are so fearsome that those two slots are necessary. Goblins can be dealt with by other means, and if you are facing dragon stompy, two blasts won't be enough to turn the match around. Perhaps Jace would be better here.

Otherwise, list looks good.

Just echoing the response to hatfield's article, I think the poor performance of team america as a whole in providence is due to not distinguishing between the confidant and the "classic" list. I also played a tombstalker list and finished 63rd. I think the format was ready to handle dark confidant, and I believe those lists are even worse against merfolk and definitely worse against red aggro.
I thought stifle was bad after the tournament but now I think it is good again, since control decks are switching to ancestral visions and you can hit a pact with it vs. hive mind.
I played thoughtseize over hymn and was very happy with that decision. Also I played a jace main and I think that card is good enough to maindeck in this format now. Even against decks where it's supposed to be bad, it can still be fine, and of course pitches to force if necessary.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Why the BEB? I can't think of any red cards that are so fearsome that those two slots are necessary. Goblins can be dealt with by other means, and if you are facing dragon stompy, two blasts won't be enough to turn the match around. Perhaps Jace would be better here.

Otherwise, list looks good.

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It's primarily a concession to the two Burn decks floating around my LGS; 2 BEB backed up with 3 additional Pierce from the board is pretty decent. I see mostly Bant, Dredge, Burn, Affinity, then random UW Control-ish decks.

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Originally Posted by GtF

Just echoing the response to hatfield's article, I think the poor performance of team america as a whole in providence is due to not distinguishing between the confidant and the "classic" list. I also played a tombstalker list and finished 63rd. I think the format was ready to handle dark confidant, and I believe those lists are even worse against merfolk and definitely worse against red aggro.
I thought stifle was bad after the tournament but now I think it is good again, since control decks are switching to ancestral visions and you can hit a pact with it vs. hive mind.
I played thoughtseize over hymn and was very happy with that decision. Also I played a jace main and I think that card is good enough to maindeck in this format now. Even against decks where it's supposed to be bad, it can still be fine, and of course pitches to force if necessary.

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Any insight into your sideboard choices, and what worked/what didn't? Particularly on how to address both Midrange and Merfolk while still having enough tools against dedicated Control.