[Deck] Zoo

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Is it just me or is this thread slowly devolving as it alternates between decklist show and tell and repeated discussions that have already been gone over a billion times?

If you're going to post a decklist, at least put in a minimal effort to highlight how it is different than the 5,000 other decklists in this thread and why your build is optimal/works for you, preferably by talking about match-ups or something. Whipping it out and saying "have a look" is not a basis for discussion.

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Why is it ass holes like you have to post stuff like you just did. Maybe it`s because I didn`t have time to read 75 pages about zoo decks.

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I'm sorry, but I have to agree with MMogg here. If this thread was in the new and developmental forum, I could understand. However, as a DTB thread, this is not the place for unknowledgable players (not saying that you are) to spam decklists and get help, it's a place for those involved with the archetype to further innovate and develop it into a stronger deck. If you wanted help, you could either take the time to read the information, which is going to be your absolute best approach, or to PM someone who is knowledgeable and ask their advice.

If you have tested your deck significantly in relation to the standard variations and have found it to be innovative and an improvement, including the information that explains the why and how is much more beneficial than posting a decklist and either asking everyone what they think or telling everyone that it's good regardless of what they think.

I'm not trying to moderate the forum though, so I could really care less what you do, but you must understand that it gets annoying seeing people disregard the point of the forum to take the discussion in a backwards approach rather than move it forward.

However, your decklist doesn't look too bad. I'm not sure that going 4c to splash black for MD Confidant/Terminate and SB Duress is significantly improving any existing matchups, but I'm not a Zoo expert, so I'll leave that discussion to everyone else.

I never have trouble finding enough food for lavamancer and knight. However, I only run knight as a two of. I believe running more than two of the three drop slot is a bad idea. I know that I don't want a knight in my opening hand in most matchups, but I do want him to be in my deck so that I can draw him when I need him. I've been one of the largest proponents of knight in this deck, but I would never play four. I tried playing three once and I did not like it at all. He ended up gumming up Hands far too often. If you run four goyfs, three mancers, and two knights, the desynergy is minimal. I still don't like four color builds enough to justify weakening the manabase, but I do concur with those saying that confidant and library is redundant. Personally, I like library better regardless of colors, and since he's really the main reason you play black anyway, I just don't see the point of adding black. Sorry for wall of texting here I'm writing from my iPhone

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Originally Posted by The Pharmacist

Why is it ass holes like you have to post stuff like you just did. Maybe it`s because I didn`t have time to read 75 pages about zoo decks.

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The rules have a part in the spam area that says something about it's a no-no to post just a decklist with nothing else (especially in the DTB area).

I think that one of the problems with adding a 4th color is that it can be a little more inconsistent than rolling 3 colors. Sure, you can judge your hands and fetch accordingly, but what about if you're facing against someone who can Stifle and Wasteland your lands, it gets to be a lot of juggling just to play.

Confidant is awesome and plays nice with the curve. And Duress adds extra hate against ANT. If you can make the benefits outweigh the risks where you play, go for it.

@Bitchtoken - Since he already has 4 PTE, maybe STP is fine. I'd rather my opponent gain 12 life from a Dreadnought than lose the game or get hit by Spell Snare by playing Doom Blade or Terminate.

I liked this thread better when everyone was arguing about Aether Vial.

Where's Valtrix and that other guy when you need em.

I don't post here hardly anymore because it's turned into the Vial Goblins thread, except we don't have new hyped cards to talk about.

Goblin Guide = Awesome in Extended btw.

Depending on build, this deck is really heavy at the two-drop already (Pridemage, 'Goyf, Confident). However, I see a lot more builds that are running pretty heavy in the burn department too. Do early beats with dudes, then finish off your opponent with burn to the head (or to clear blockers) when things slow down in the red zone.

That seems to be the basic idea. Much like Red Deck Wins used to do.

So, that got me to thinking. With all of the talk about:

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Is it just me or is this thread slowly devolving as it alternates between decklist show and tell and repeated discussions that have already been gone over a billion times?

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To try to find something different. So I started looking at my old tournament logs and whatnot and some old staples of my Red Deck Wins (Sligh!) lists.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2..._librarian.jpg

Oh, ho, ho! You can clown on me all you want, but I played this heffer in the very first tournament that I ever won back in 1996! I still have the plaque around here somewhere.

Pros: Only one colored mana. Digs for burn/answers.
Cons: Really small and not an efficient beater.

Obviously you're never going to play him on the second turn. He's not there to swing. You'll never want to play him early when you could drop something like Tarmogoyf instead. However, with builds that are running fewer copies of Grim Lavamancer, maybe he could fit into that role? The orc won't "step on the toes" of graveyard effects and although it doesn't do damage directly, it does find damage indirectly.

Granted it is almost 5 A.M. and maybe I'm sleep deprived, delirious and/or crazy...but I'm going to test it for awhile. It was one of my favorite cards for a long time several years ago.

That´s absolutely ridicoulus... people who play burn+StoP in the same list (how often some1 has to say that this is terrible?!); Orcish Librarian, I mean, wtf?; seriously, this is a Deck to Beat.
Your weapon of choice against Dreadnought is obv Krosan Grip(>PtE>Swords). And even if I´m not a big fan of Sylvan Library, this card is at least worth playing. So, please, let´s improve the Deck.
Just my 2c.

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Originally Posted by Snief

Your weapon of choice against Dreadnought is obv Krosan Grip(>PtE>Swords). And even if I´m not a big fan of Sylvan Library, this card is at least worth playing. So, please, let´s improve the Deck.
Just my 2c.

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Krosan Grip > PtE how?

I don't understand what your argument is. We can't discuss cards because of where this thread is located on the message forum?

I am of the firm belief that decks are to be tweaked and altered to a personal playstyle. I will never, ever just copy a decklist 100% completely and then just sit down and play it without ever questioning any of the slots. I am also a big proponent of my opponent not knowing my entire card list when I lay my first or second land.

Bottom line being: "don't knock it until you try it."

Haters gonna hate. One of the best ways to tell how good a player is is by how close-minded they are.

Landx20
1 * Forest
1 * Plains
2 * Arid Mesa
1 * Badlands
1 * Bayou
1 * Plateau
2 * Savannah
2 * Taiga
1 * Tropical Island
4 * Windswept Heath
4 * Wooded Foothills

Creaturesx24
4 * Dark Confidant
4 * Viashino Slaughtermaster
4 * Gaddock Teeg
1 * Tarmogoyf
3 * Boros Swiftblade
4 * Qasali Pridemage
4 * Tidehollow Sculler

Other Spellsx16
4 * Path to Exile
4 * Tribal Flames
4 * Gaea's Might
4 * Might of Alara
------------------
Sideboard
15 * Relentless Rats


Yea, it's Gaea Might Get There. But why not? Its constancy is through the roof. 8xGaea's Might. 7x2cc Double Strike. 4xConfidant. And Sculler+Pridemage+Gaddock work to limit the opposition.

I know, there is a noticeable lack of Htarmogoyf and Lightning Helix. Lightning Helix just put me back a step. The life gain did nothing. I'd rather have Lightning Bolt.

Tarmogoyf was poor. It didn't impede the opponent, and it didn't do anything above and beyond with the Mights.

p.s. This is just a rough draft, and the mana still needs quite a bit o' tweaking.

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Originally Posted by P.S.

I don't understand what your argument is. We can't discuss cards because of where this thread is located on the message forum?

I am of the firm belief that decks are to be tweaked and altered to a personal playstyle. I will never, ever just copy a decklist 100% completely and then just sit down and play it without ever questioning any of the slots. I am also a big proponent of my opponent not knowing my entire card list when I lay my first or second land.

Bottom line being: "don't knock it until you try it."

Haters gonna hate. One of the best ways to tell how good a player is is by how close-minded they are.

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This exactly. Though, I am going to side with him on the Librarian. If they went to the grave, maybe. But it doesn't. And that makes him a Terrorable Magma Jet without the virtual haste.

Librarian is even worse than a magma jet since you don't even get to choose what is removed. That card is just straight up terrible.

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Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION

Librarian is even worse than a magma jet since you don't even get to choose what is removed. That card is just straight up terrible.

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Milling does not affect probability.

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Originally Posted by P.S.

I don't understand what your argument is. We can't discuss cards because of where this thread is located on the message forum?
I am of the firm belief that decks are to be tweaked and altered to a personal playstyle. I will never, ever just copy a decklist 100% completely and then just sit down and play it without ever questioning any of the slots. I am also a big proponent of my opponent not knowing my entire card list when I lay my first or second land.

Bottom line being: "don't knock it until you try it."

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No, we can discuss nearly everything, but I mean a card like Orcish Librarian may have been worth playing 1996, but not today, I think. And I think too that one should not copy a list 100%, but then you should play cards that improve the deck or at least don´t make it worse.

And Krosan Grip>PtE against Dreadnought imo, given the fact that Nought is played in blue-based decks and Grip has split second.

After testing a lot of different builds of Zoo I have decided me for this list:

Creature:
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Woolly Thoctar

Instant:
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Price of Progress

Sorcery:
4 Chain Lightning

Land:
2 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Mountain
1 Forest

-> I think this list is fast and constant. 3 Plateau's are definitely enough to cast Thoctar & Helix and to pump your Nacatl (with Canopys). I don't like the PtoE because it can be a dead card against Combo for example.
What do you think? Are Sylvan Library and 21 Lands necessary?

That list looks very similar to a list I played last time. I think 19 lands are also playable with 1 Canopy. The more Canopy the more lands I would play. My land base looks like this:

4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothils
2 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
19 Lands

I like to play 1 basic of each color against Wastelands and for my own PoP. You should consider to play 3 Magma Jet or 2 Sylvan Library for Card Advantage.

I run with 20 lands and haven't noticed a problem. I ended up taking out Sylvan Library because I found myself siding it out in every single matchup, although it is definitely good and would fault no one for running it. Path to Exile is great against the one combo deck that we don't auto lose the match to: Ichorid. In fact, an exile target creature spell is amazing against a warehouse sized list of decks too numerous to talk about (especially because, again, we've been over this before). PtE and Pridemage are literally why we are an evolutionary step above Goyf Sligh and should not be run as less that 4-ofs.

So in conclusion,

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Are Sylvan Library and 21 Lands necessary?

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No, but Path to Exile is.

I finally took the time to test the fast Goyf Sligh version in a tournament setting last Wednesday.

I made room for a full set of Chain Lightning, Lavamancer. 3 ofs of Hellspark Elemental and Fireblast too.

Fireblast was disappointing and didn't do anything, like anything at all. I never wanted to cast it, even as a finisher. I always had damage on the board. Lavamancer is in fact insane, but i would have to vary my build too much. I understand why people jerk off to him.

I also think that Hellspark is fucking amazing. Idk why i never ran him in my regular Zoo list. He either deals 6, or saves my other dudes a STP. So good.

I went 3 and 2 losing both to combo decks. I packed no hate in the SB, and even if i did i don't think it would have mattered. I lost to Alluren and Tendrils. I almost got a lucky win when he went down to 1 with Ad Nauseum.

But yeah, my conclusion is that, in the right build, Lavamancer and Hellspark are fucking brutal.

Wanna use this on the Berserk Stompy thread, so fell free to fry me up!

What about using Bersek+Pumps into the Zoo Shell?

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Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil

Wanna use this on the Berserk Stompy thread, so fell free to fry me up!

What about using Bersek+Pumps into the Zoo Shell?

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I have a feeling you're throwing out a shitty idea to get us to go read your Thread. You almost had me at Berserk.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

I have a feeling you're throwing out a shitty idea to get us to go read your Thread. You almost had me at Berserk.

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No, actually it's a discussion there. It's not quite my thread... I mean, i made the post, but the deck is far elder....

Anyways, the discussion there is more like about monogreen berserk stompy and 3-c berserk stompy, which clearly leads to the discussion "isn't it (3c) a worse version of zoo"?

As far as I know, this is the best thread to ask it. So, what about using Berserk + Pumps in this deck shell? Would it enhance matchups? (even if dimishing others)