[Archetype] CounterTop

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Originally Posted by BantFTW

There's a list with it^^
Klick on it and you'll see the deck, and yes with the moat and combo :)

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Yes, I know it exists.. those questions were rhetorical..

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Originally Posted by dorkogoyf

Hi guys,

I'm kind of new to Legacy. Just picked up a deck before the Starcity 5k in Los Angeles a few months ago at the encouragement of my friends. This format is a blast to play, but some card choices are mystifying me. I originally played the Natural Order version of Countertop, but ended up getting frustrated at the sometimes shoddy manabase (opening on Dryad Arbor and basic Plains with Hierarch in hand gave me fits!) I adopted the recently crowned 5k Champion in St. Louis: the Thopter variation of Countertop.

Now, the sideboard runs 4 Ethersworn Canonist and I'm not sure what matchup they come in for. I know the card is strong in the ANT matchup, but I also remember Countertop variants being a tough cookie for the ANT decks to handle; also given the general notion that the ANT deck is dropping off in popularity due to the banning of Mystical Tutor, I was not sure why the deck needed all 4 copies in the board.

Also, how would this deck board against a traditional Natural Order/Countertop Deck? It looks like the Back to Basics are in for sure, along with Extirpate maybe? Finally, what is the lone copy of Serenity for?

Thanks guys...

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Uhh.. you can make the sideboard which ever way you want it.. You don't have to play four cannonists or a single serenity if you don't want it.. The cannonists are only for storm combo decks (not only ANT but solidarity, belcher, TES, NLS, you get the idea). The Serenity is probably for the prison decks like Stax, Enchantress, Quinn, Dragon, etc.

I don't think back to basics is a good idea if you are playing a countertop deck of your own, unless somehow it is mono coloured. I think you are better off playing things that remove progenitus.

I understand that the board can be built any way I wanted. I was just wondering why the list that won the 5K was built that particular way.

Thanks for the info.

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Originally Posted by jin

does he have thopter foundry combo? moat main?

it's really hard to tell if we don't see a list...

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I posted it in the Countertop Control thread, but nobody cared :(

there is a thread specially for countertop thopter in the established decks forum, and its well visited i have to say, and yes from what i understood they are playing moat or humility mainboard

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

there is a thread specially for countertop thopter in the established decks forum, and its well visited i have to say, and yes from what i understood they are playing moat or humility mainboard

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I've got a tournament coming up in which I think I'll face a lot of aggro. I used to have a bant build with the no-pro combo, and an empyrial archangel (against burn and zoo) and a novablast wurm (against goblins, merfolk and progenitus) in the side to swap for progenitus. Because runed halo protects against tendrils as good as against progenitus, I put those in the side, and removed nopro from the deck for more control elements (two elspeth, a second new jace and a trygon predator which pitches for fow and is ok against any rogue artifact deck I may see). Is that a good idea or is it just stupid?

Also, has anybody ever tried novablast wurm in the side for natural order? If the opponent isn't playing white for plow effects, that thing is huge. If it resolves against merfolk it should be gg, in theory, and its ability nukes progenitus. I added and removed it again without taking it to a tournament, and have very little chance to playtest, so I don't know if it works in reality.

the wurm is definitely an intresting idea, and i do not think you should worry about swords to plowshares, you can allways counter them, you can allways use him as a sideboard silverbullet for game 2 and 3 agaist decks like goblins, merfolk, and the mirror, if opponent has allready out progenitus

i dit not try it out, but if you get good results with it, tell us

That wurm is too slow to be effective in any case. First of all, against merfolk and black goblins you should sb out the NO+progenitus package, and against the mirror the best answer to a resolved NO into progenitus is your own NO into progenitus, to avoid being owned via stp or in case your life total is below 10.
You guys should test the stoneforge+jitte sb plan, it is really the best answer against merfolk this deck can play!

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Originally Posted by Frid

That wurm is too slow to be effective in any case. First of all, against merfolk and black goblins you should sb out the NO+progenitus package, and against the mirror the best answer to a resolved NO into progenitus is your own NO into progenitus, to avoid being owned via stp or in case your life total is below 10.
You guys should test the stoneforge+jitte sb plan, it is really the best answer against merfolk this deck can play!

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stoneforge + jitte.. amen.. sword of fire and ice isn't bad as well.. Kira is kinda annoying though.. but the equipment help..

The problem of SoFI is that it can't deal with two resolved lords alone. And the lifegaining from jitte is also useful sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Frid

The problem of SoFI is that it can't deal with two resolved lords alone. And the lifegaining from jitte is also useful sometimes.

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It's also pro blue, so you can block or race. On top of that we play a lot of cards that fix card quality. That coupled with drawing an extra card a turn means that we look at 5 cards at least. i'm sure we'll find a swords to plowshare in no time.. = )

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Originally Posted by jin

It's also pro blue, so you can block or race. On top of that we play a lot of cards that fix card quality. That coupled with drawing an extra card a turn means that we look at 5 cards at least. i'm sure we'll find a swords to plowshare in no time.. = )

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Wrong. You are the control deck in this matchup, and therefore need to play control cards. I've yet to see anything that worked half as well as Firespouts or, if your creature count is high enough, the 8-StP plan.

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Originally Posted by Malakai

Wrong. You are the control deck in this matchup, and therefore need to play control cards. I've yet to see anything that worked half as well as Firespouts or, if your creature count is high enough, the 8-StP plan.

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That's interesting how you dismiss the idea so quickly. How is protecting your creatures and drawing cards not a control plan? It just seems like you haven't fought fish too much if you think firespout works against fish. You would normally need at least 5 mana since you'll probably be fighting through cursedcatchers and daze so I wouldn't count on it. cursedcatcher doesn't hit SOFI or Jitte.

The 8 Swords to Plowshare plan used to work but welcome to 2010. Fish usually mainboards Kira, the Great Glass Spinner now, so I wouldn't rely too heavily on that strategy. My equipment will get my removal through without losing card advantage. Check it out = )

@Malakai: I can tell you that firespouts and/or 8 swords are very BAD solutions against merfolk playing bant countertop. Not bad, VERY bad. I have tested both a lot, and apart from them I have tested dueling grounds, propaganda, vedalken shackles and many other cards, and the only card that really beats merfolk with bant is umezawa's jitte. The rest is usually crap.
I needed months of testing and losing in tournaments to realize.

Maybe you are not such a good player, it's a fragile matchup wich involves some skill.

We are not talking about me, but my 1848 rating in eternal proves enough about my skills. My results are always product of hard testing against skilled players and many tournaments.
On the other side, such comments prove that you either haven't tested the matchup at all, or that you aren't "such a good player". Playing against merfolk with bant involves ZERO skill, you need to get asap BROKEN cards to win the game.
I'll explain this to you with another example: When youre playing zoo against ANT, either you get the broken cards that let you win (canonist, trap, gaddock) or you lose.
When you face your worst matchup with ANY deck what you need are CARDS, not SKILL. Skill is always for the even matchups.

Merfolk is a tough match up, but I've found the best cards to deal with Merfolk are Firespout and EE. Jitte in this match up is too slow IMO. A well timed swords on a LoA can also completely wreck their day as well.

The big problem of firespout is that it forces you to splash red in an UWG deck. So, it will win many games bacause of its effect, but it will make you lose many more if you face merfolk's mana denial. And if you face cursecatcher its very hard to cast it in time. I played firespouts in GP madrid and my only two losses from day 1 were to two merfolk decks, which was enough for me to search other cards for that matchup. Jitte can be slow if you don't get it in time, that's right, thats why you have to play 5 copies of it between stoneforges and jittes. That way you find it always in the first 3 turns.
EE is totally okay, I play two of them in my sb indeed.

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Originally Posted by Frid

The big problem of firespout is that it forces you to splash red in an UWG deck. So, it will win many games bacause of its effect, but it will make you lose many more if you face merfolk's mana denial. And if you face cursecatcher its very hard to cast it in time. I played firespouts in GP madrid and my only two losses from day 1 were to two merfolk decks, which was enough for me to search other cards for that matchup. Jitte can be slow if you don't get it in time, that's right, thats why you have to play 5 copies of it between stoneforges and jittes. That way you find it always in the first 3 turns.
EE is totally okay, I play two of them in my sb indeed.

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Regarding the Stoneforge/Jitte package... Why not Sword of Fire and Ice instead? I haven't tried either of them, I am just curious if you have.

Yes I did, and as I said some posts before:

The problem of SoFI is that it can't deal with two resolved lords alone. And the lifegaining from jitte is also useful sometimes.

I would add to this that SoFI is a turn slower than jitte when you draw it, and that it does little if they resolved kira, which every merfolk deck seems to run maideck now. Jitte deals much more effectively with the 2/2.

A general question, what do you board out against Zoo in a normal NoBant list?