Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Blood Moon and Back to Basic are not possible for Miracle Control, no need to suggest something that's not within the bounds of Miracle Control.
Stoneforge/Batterskull, as in Miracle Blade, that's not the solution neither. If you play EsperBlade, I would agree since
Lingering Souls would negate Liliana; Miracle Blade is simply not enough. If Miracle Blade were enough, people would not bother to mention this match up at the first place.
Why is it 'not possible' and 'not within the bounds of Miracle Control'? We run 10 basic lands.
I've played the deck with Blood Moon in the side when it was still UW Countertop Walker (before Miracles) with a similar manabase and it was perfectly viable then.
It seems workable when your manabase is:
6 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Utility Land
Just fetch for basics until you cast Blood Moon. You also have SDT to dig for more basics.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yutang
Why is it 'not possible' and 'not within the bounds of Miracle Control'? We run 10 basic lands.
I've played the deck with Blood Moon in the side.
They can just tap mana in response, and just Abrupt Decay away your Blood Moon. Say that's not the case. With just one swamp or one forest in play, DS would produce the necessarily mana of another color to play the spell to get rid of your Blood Moon. Of course, this is all under the assumption that you dodge the discard and Liliana to draw into your enchantment.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
They can just tap mana in response, and just Abrupt Decay away your Blood Moon. Say that's not the case. With just one swamp or one forest in play, DS would produce the necessarily mana of another color to play the spell to get rid of your Blood Moon. Of course, this is all under the assumption that you dodge the discard and Liliana to draw into your enchantment.
Obviously you optimally cast Blood Moon when they are tapped out - just as Maverick players cast Choke.
Before they acquire BG you will haven been able to get an edge and then they still trade 1/1 and have less removal for CB.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I've been testing with BUG Control against UW Miracles a bunch recently and here's some conclusions I've come to:
- The matchup is really difficult for Miracles, but it's definitely winnable.
- Relic makes it very difficult for BUG to execute its gameplan. It essentially turns off Deathrite on Miracles's grave and neuters Goyf. Because of this I'm shaving/cutting Goyfs. Rest In Peace doesn't really do as much because I can trade 1-for-1 with it and then continue using Deathrite. BUG will grind Miracles out of the game with Loam and other graveyard shenanigans without hate.
- There are 2 spells that matter in the matchup - Vendilion Clique and Jace. We both have them, they're both deadly and get insane value. BUG gets to accelerate into them, but Miracles usually has more Counterspells
- Being proactive is usually bad, but BUG can pressure better with its efficient threats, manlands, etc. So, don't tap out for Jace unless you counter BUG's Jace!
- None of the lists have a good answer for Baneslayer besides Liliana. BSA is still nuts.
I'm not sure on discard. I think I cut it because it's a terrible topdeck and the game will go late and Top is your hand. Thoughts?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Just having some ideas, I'm sorry if they are stupid.. How about running Ruination instead of Blood Moon? If it resolves, the damage is already done and Abrupt Decay will do nothing. Also, Misdirection is card disadvantage, could Redirect be better against decks like BUG Control that like to grind it out? Also, how about Lightning Helix in sideboard for additional removal? The life gain could buy you some time.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike_
Just having some ideas, I'm sorry if they are stupid.. How about running Ruination instead of Blood Moon? If it resolves, the damage is already done and Abrupt Decay will do nothing. Also, Misdirection is card disadvantage, could Redirect be better against decks like BUG Control that like to grind it out? Also, how about Lightning Helix in sideboard for additional removal? The life gain could buy you some time.
So, the theory is, Blood Moon doesn't affect us, where Ruination does to some extent. With Moon on the table, BUG can't actually cast Abrupt Decay - many people aren't playing any basics, and very few lists have a basic forest. Just cast it when they tap out, and you are good to go.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
So, the theory is, Blood Moon doesn't affect us, where Ruination does to some extent. With Moon on the table, BUG can't actually cast Abrupt Decay - many people aren't playing any basics, and very few lists have a basic forest. Just cast it when they tap out, and you are good to go.
Yeah, but does the theory work in practice? What if they don't tap out for something until it's too late? And you could probably play a single mountain in Miracles so Ruination would have very little effect on us.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mike_
JAlso, Misdirection is card disadvantage, could Redirect be better against decks like BUG Control that like to grind it out?
If there's a target you can Misdirect the Decay to, it'll usually be theirs (Deathrite, Liliana, Goyf, Clique) so it is at least card parity.
At worst you have SDT to target and swap in response.
Redirects doesn't seem that bad and Divert is another option.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Blood Moon and Back to Basic are not possible for Miracle Control, no need to suggest something that's not within the bounds of Miracle Control. They can just tap mana in response, and just Abrupt Decay away your Blood Moon. Say that's not the case. With just one swamp or one forest in play, DS would produce the necessarily mana of another color to play the spell to get rid of your Blood Moon. Of course, this is all under the assumption that you dodge the discard and Liliana to draw into your enchantment.
I've decided NOT to respond to this like an asshole, but I realized this was just my exam-time raging. Not possible? I beg to differ, sir. Sure, they could tap mana in response to and kill a Blood Moon, but then, they've got one less Abrupt Decay for real threats, and if the Blood Moon DOES land, well, then you win. Back to Basics is worse, but does stifle their mana development without hindering you at all. You can't assume they'll have the removal, discard, and everything ALL THE TIME, since it doesn't work that way. You have to time it right and work it into your overall strategy.
However, I think running Black would be better to combat the weaker matchups such as Goblins and Lingering Souls tokens. REB is great, and Blood Moon may be worth considering, but black gives you games against other trumps people are trying at the moment. I feel like Goblins is going to be well represented at GP Denver. How is its BUG matchup?
-Matt
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I agree with sdematt. It seems like you are looking for an 'I win' button (Leyline of Sanctity) which doesn't quite work in a control mirror. The 'it can be removed' argument can be applied to anything.
With control mirrors, its a contest of who drops the last resolved bomb which includes Jace and Clique. By running Blood Moon, you are increasing the number of your bombs for them to deal with.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Exactly. The argument will always be "removal, counterspells, discard" but you can't use that as an excuse.
-Matt
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Exactly. The argument will always be "removal, counterspells, discard" but you can't use that as an excuse.
-Matt
By that nature, isn't Luminarch Ascension worth consideration too? It's no Entreat the Angels, but it slides in very neatly and very early. Granted, it's weak against Abrupt Decay while Blood Moon fits the bill better; but what about other matchups?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
By that nature, isn't Luminarch Ascension worth consideration too? It's no Entreat the Angels, but it slides in very neatly and very early. Granted, it's weak against Abrupt Decay while Blood Moon fits the bill better; but what about other matchups?
I think Luminarch is great in the Control mirrors where you know you won't be touched for several turns, but you wouldn't bring it in against BUG (this is obvious). If you were looking for a mirror breaker, if testing were done so results could be spoken of, Ascension could be decent enough.
-Matt
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
I think Luminarch is great in the Control mirrors where you know you won't be touched for several turns, but you wouldn't bring it in against BUG (this is obvious). If you were looking for a mirror breaker, if testing were done so results could be spoken of, Ascension could be decent enough.
-Matt
Elspeth. She doesn't get touched by Abrupt Decay or Pernicious Deed, assassinates opposing Jaces, chump blocks Goyfs all day long (for the lists that run him), and provides a decent clock. Elspeth is slower than Entreat and much more grindy, but she's also much better in control mirrors. She's a bit more top-heavy than something like Luminarch, and is still vulnerable to opposing Clique's, but she still puts you in a much better position than you otherwise would be, and you should be rocking your own set of Clique's anyway.
Secondly, discard is also strong to bring, for this matchup. REB won't stop Abrupt Decay, or any of their non-blue problem cards, where discard will. The knowledge of their hand is also important in this matchup, since as it was already stated,
Quote:
With control mirrors, its a contest of who drops the last resolved bomb which includes Jace and Clique.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Sooo everyone started arguing about BUG, but no one answered my question... Should the Miracles player board out Counterbalance against BUG players running Abrupt Decays?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrunkenphat7
Sooo everyone started arguing about BUG, but no one answered my question... Should the Miracles player board out Counterbalance against BUG players running Abrupt Decays?
My opinion is no. Counterbalance isnt a lock piece in this deck, its a card advantage engine. One of three scenarios will occur:
1) You resolve Counterbalance. Abrupt Decay immediately blows up Counterbalance. 1 for 1 occurs.
2) You resolve Counterbalance. They do not find Abrupt Decay and is buried by the card advantage of Counterbalance before they find it. You come out ahead.
3) You resolve Counterbalance. After gaining some card advantage, they eventually find Abrupt Decay and blow up Counterbalance. You come out ahead.
I would cut Terminus and Entreat (if anticipating Deed from the board) from the main before cutting Counterbalance. In fact, I would even side in my last Counterbalance in.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
'Nilla Pac
Just played a bunch of games against some BUG decks (one version with delver, one version AJ Sacher's deck). The games went pretty much as described above. Counterbalance is nice if it sticks, but BUG is plenty beatable without it. Hold off their creatures, resolve Jace, and the games are easy. I'd leave CB in because if they don't have an abrupt decay ready, it's a big pain for them. If they do have it, it' not the end of the world for us - we can still put up plenty of fight.
Not sure about how the matchup against more controlish BUG decks play out. Pernicious deed seems annoying.
If the version you test against does not have Liliana, then it's not a valid test. The bottom line is that BUG decks would always have more threats on the table than you. Miracle has Jace, so does BUG. A resolved Liliana is horrible for Miracle in this match-up. From my own testing, I have not being able to get a come-back win for any games when Liliana's on the table.
Just to be clear, when I refer to BUG control, I am referring to this version:
Brian Braun-Duin. Top4 in SCG Legacy Open Baltimore (Dec-2012)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Darkblast
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Life from the Loam
2 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I picked up three byes for Denver yesterday at a GPT. I beat UW RIP Miracles twice, lost to Elves, beat UG Infect, ID'd, beat Sneak Attack, Team America, then Hive Mind in the finals. Today I played in another and made it to the semis before we prize split the top 4 and I scooped to my friend I beat in the finals yesterday. I beat Lands, lost to OmniRector, beat Sneak and Show, UR Delver, UR Delver in the quarters, then scooped to my friend.
I played UWb Miracles. I was leaning towards UWr leading up to this weekend even though I had success with my UWb list, but I ended up choosing black since I prefer the discard against combo and random decks and black offers some nice options against aggro. I'm very glad I did, as the black cards were awesome for me. I ran two Karakas today and was very happy with the second.
