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Personally, I think that the charm is even better than counterspell the way the format is shaping out.
I can completely understand it's inclusion over the few copies of CS people play these days (1-2 if any), it can also come after 1 pierce slot to round out it's numbers in decks running 3-4 pierces on top of their counterspells. It effectively just adds 2cc removal to the deck without losing much in terms of cost, or protection.
I am becoming more and more convinced of Izzet Charm being incredibly good in Legacy, I think you hit the nail in the head there.
I don't like the Scrubland. It has come up several times where I've been like... hm, I wish I could fetch a Scrubland, but the stability of more Blue sources is much more appealing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jblaze4lif
I'm also not a fan of Izzet Charm... though I admit, I haven't thought of it in Stoneblade before (I mainly evaluated it for RUG). Even so, it seems to have a lot of the same problems here that it does in RUG. The only mode that we actually care enough to play is the Spell Pierce. We don't want a Shock that can't hit players (though that's less relevant for us than it is for RUG). We don't want a looting effect that doesn't even cantrip.
The versatility is more relevant for us than it is for RUG, but it still doesn't change the fact that it isn't really exceptional at anything. It's not a better removal spell than Swords or Path. It's not a better counter than Spell Pierce or Counterspell. It doesn't dig better than Ponder. It doesn't solve the problem of Moms or Mongoose. It's not powerful enough to run out of the sideboard. The only time it's good is against aggro decks if you are using it in place of Spell Pierce (since Pierce is usually near-dead there)... but even then, it'd probably still be one of the first cards to be sided out, so what's the point? If I were splashing Red instead of Black in Stoneblade, I'd run Fire//Ice over Izzet Charm every time.
And on a different note... I'm pleasantly surprised by Supreme Verdict. I wouldn't run it main deck or anything, but it is really great SB against RUG (while Wrath is nearly unplayable against them).
I would consider it in my main. It is definitely a sick board card against RUG and basically any aggro or aggro/control MU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
I also wouldn't totally write off the Izzet Charm. It might not do each of modes as well as another specific card, but you are getting the option of playing 3 slightly less powerful cards. Essentially you end up paying a luxury tax of either a :u: or :r:. I think in here and maybe UWr Miracles, it could be decent. As with any new addition to an established deck, metas vary and it might be great for some people while poor for others. Testing and time will tell.
Of course non of the modes is better than the card it mimics. Every effect of the charm is unplayable if it was the only mode, but the fact it's never dead is really strong. I also like fire/ice for the exact same reason, but I think I like the Izzet charm even more. Fire/ice still doesn't do anything against combo - Sure it cantrips, but I find the spell pierce mode much more powerful. I was always debating if I should maindeck more removal or more counters, since one is dead against combo and the other against aggro. Izzet charm is both at once. And even tho the third mode is no cantrip it still digs two cards deep lategame and it shouldn't be too hard to discard a land or some other dead card or a spell you can at least recycle with snapcaster. It's not the best use, but there are worse topdecks. Drawing a spell pierce lategame is usually horrible, it just doesn't do anything. I am convinced it is way better than it looks, and trying doesn't hurt I guess. Maybe I am totally wrong and I hate the card every time I draw it, but we will see. ;)
Considering the two Supreme Verdicts main: It may be too clunky to maindeck, but again I will give it a shot. There were a lot of games in the past were I hated not drawing towards a wrath effect game one, but this wrath may be good enough to maindeck. You can always cast it with four mana against RUG without having to worry about getting dazed or spell pierced and, unlike the other wrath effects, you can pitch it to force in matchups where you do not need it (I know it is the lamest argument ever, but here I think it is actually relevant). It's also immune to REB even tho it is blue, which is another huge upside. It's just so damn reliable. :D
Edit: I am btw agreeing with you about izzet charm being worse than Fire/Ice in RUG.
Hi everyone,
There a SCG event comming to my local area (RI) in a few weeks and i have been grinding the same deck for the last few Months. Its my patriot Blade deck (R/W/U). I have had some scuccess (got 12 at the TCG player Legacy event in Worcester GP) and I want to run it at the SCG event but I feel that it is missing a few things.
My current list is:
Lands(22):
4 Scolding Tarns
2 Flooded Strans
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Platue
4 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
Creatures (16):
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grimlava Mancer
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Delver of Secreats
Spells (18):
4 Lightning bolts
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorms
3 spell pierce
3 Force of Will
Equiptment(2):
1 Jitte
1 batterskull
Planes Walkers(2):
2 Jace, The Mind Sculpter
Now what I am going to change is I want to put in 2 vendilion cliques and 1 geist. Besides that im not sure what i should change. The deck is more tempo than it is control, that is why i run geist. Geist of saint traft will finish a game quickly and he is difficult to stop, but clique seems better in more matchups.
Sb usually contains the
3 Pyroblast
3 sergical extractions
2 EE
1 Force of Will
2 Humility
2 Elspeth, knight errant
2 Hydroblast
Any suggestions would be appriciatied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens
Hi,
I haven't played patriot blade for sometime and the card choices looks good. There's a couple things I question about the number and the location mb or sb.
1) 22 lands seems rather greedy, especially with 4 wastelands. Consider dropping to 3 wastelands, bringing your land count up to 23 and adding 2 fetches.
2) less than 4 snapcaster seems wrong especially with your access to 4 bolts and 4 plows
3) 4 delver of secrets with 18 sorcery/ instants seems greedy. I would consider moving mindsculpter to the board and bringing in the 4th force of will. 22 lands seems fine without 4 drops in the deck. I would consider dropping a geist of St traft and going to 2. Also consider 2 lavamancer instead of 3.
4) not ideal but if tempo is your main plan swords to plowshares seems counter intuitive. Consider a non life grant removal such as path to exile or vapor snag.
Those would be my theoretical constructive criticism.
Yes, but my point is that even if the modes were the full version of the card they mimic, we still wouldn't be running them. We'd never play Shock. We'd never play Careful Study. Spell Pierce is the only mode we use. Why does slapping it all on one card make it more appealing? Game 1, just lean on Brainstorm and shuffle away cards that are bad for the MU. After sideboarding, your deck gets a whole lot leaner and cards like Izzet Charm just look clunky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
Jace seems ambitious for a deck with 22 lands (4 of which are Wasteland). I'm not a fan of "Tempoblade," but I'd suggest going all one way or the other. Either drop Jace and add more tempo stuff like Daze or drop Delver and cut back on Geists to up the lands and Snaps. Either way, you want all 4 SFM because that's why you run this deck and you don't want 3 Lavamancers because they'll end up stepping on each other's (or Taigo's) feet.Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens
If you guys add meddling mage to the cretaure base, you can effectively increase/maintain your threat density... Also, it will help to push the pure show and tell decks out of the format entirely.
I would suggest my "UWr Tempoblade" Version:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
//Deck: UWr "Tempoblade" (60)
// Lands (19)
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Plain
1 Karakas
1 Plateau
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland (i know i need 4 :wink: )
// Creatures (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Geist of Saint Traft
// Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshards
1 Fire//Ice (sometimes Forked Bolt is also ok)
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
// Sideboard (15)
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Jötun Grunt
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
Works very good in my meta (Germany).
I also work on a more traditional Stoneblade List (Jace, more Lands etc.) which should include 2 Izzet Charms (as Removal 5-6 and counter 9-10). I think, if someone playing with the red splash, the new charm deserves some test games.
I decided to cut the delvers and geists,(-7) went to 4 snapcater mage(+1) and 4 stm(+1) with 1 extra land(+1) and atleast 1 counterspell(+1). Im droping 1 grimlava mancer(-1) and jumping up to 2 vendilion clique(+2). That ends up leaving me with 2 extra slots which may be and elspeth, a 3ed jace, the 4th FOW or possible keeping 1 geist. I was also thinking of putting in 1 detention sphere to see how it works.
I advise adding the 4th fow and an engineered explosives for the last 2 slotsQuote:
Originally Posted by rstevens
Seems pretty good as far as Tempoblade goes. I'd be inclined to cut the SoFF (to the board maybe) for either the 4th Ponder or the 3rd Spell Pierce. No Bolts is a little sad for UWr Tempo, but I can understand the reasoning.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
That seems pretty solid. As for the open slots, I'd definitely suggest the 4th FoW (especially since you're taking this list to the SCG circuit) and that would free up a SB slot. As for the last slot, I don't think leaving in one Geist is bad since you do have the extra reach from Bolts. The 3rd Jace is also strong, of course. I wouldn't mess with Detention Sphere... it just isn't as reliable with all the REBs running around. Ah yeah, EE also seems good like Unsummon says.Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens
If you are splashing red, I don't see why you wouldn't include Grim Lavamancers. They are a body to pick up equipment while providing you additional creature control and reach. Just seems like one of the reasons why I'd even want to splash red in the first place. You lose Lingering Souls from the black splash, for Grim Lavamancer in the red splash... you can still deal with Delvers just as much (or more) effectively, and you still gain the benefits against Maverick. Against Mircales, sure it's not as resilient as Souls, but it still increases your threat density for equipment. It's also savage in the mirror, dealing with Stoneforge Mystic, Clique, Snapcaster, etc.
Even in the tempoblade versions, he still seems like a good choice. Especially for people considering Izzet Charm...
FyiQuote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Rsteven is cutting 1 lava mancer from his 3 in case you missed it.
It wasn't a reply to Rsteven, if anything it was a reply to MD. Ghost, but I wasn't addressing anyone specifically. I was just making a general observation. If you're going to splash red instead of black, Grim Lavamancer should be one of the reasons you would do that.
My apologies,Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Must have been how I was reading the thread.
thanks for all the information. Im gunna put toget the deck tonight and test play with a few of my freinds to see how it runs. Ill post my final (or close to it) product tomorrow and then maybe go over s/b issues a bit.
Thanks for your reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Sword of Feast and Famine is mainly because it beats most creature based strategies in my meta (RUG, maverick, nic fit). Besides Delver and Batterskull, my Tempoblade Deck Creatures aren´t fearsome Attackers. Sure Geist is a good option, but you need enough support if your opponent have some creature in play. Against Esperblade the Protection also helps against an enemy Batterskull Beater or gain full Advantage with your own Batterskull.
@Bolts and Grim Lavamancer, i tried a version with red removal, some vapor snags and no swords to plowshards. Against most creature based strategies it was ok, because most of the time a bolt, forked, grim lavamancer is enough in legacy. I also killed a burn player twice with a some lightning bolt action (very funny!) BUT: The manabase can´t support it very well, you need full playsets of duals, which means no basics against wastelands and no karakas. Sure it works in a RUG shell, but RUG only needs 1-2 Mana, my (and most other UW Tempo builds) needs 3 mana for full advantage (geist, snapcaster or clique). So i decided to minimize my red sources and spells (1 main, 2 sideboard) and combine a Tempo deck with a stable mana base if needed.
Sideboard also changed to:
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Jötun Grunt
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
My latest idea is a more midgame oriented Stoneblade like this:
// Deck: UWr Stoneblade (60)
// Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Plateau
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
// Creatures
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
// Spells
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
2 Izzet Charm (new)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
Izzet Charm is a test card and the one of entreat is only for its raw power to catch some long grind games quickly enough. With more lands, it is easier to include one basic mountain to counter a wasteland infested meta. In this Version Grim Lavamancer is back to kill some dudes (mainly goblins and maverick with thalia and teeg). Against UW Miracle and Combo Metas you can easly switch geist with some clique´s in the maindeck.
Do not splash for Mancer, people. It requires a heavy commit on red so early - it makes for very awkward situations with your manabase. I've tried, and much too often I was getting punished. So, you start with a fetch volcanic into mancer, right (you can't start with a basic mountain most of the time) - you get wasted (all decks you want mancer against are running wastelands), now you burn your second fetch into another red source, because you need that mancer active, and that land still can't be mountain since you still need white and blue. If you get wasted again, you're likely doomed. One of the most solid strengths of this deck was the ability to start with a basic Island into basic Plains, and you flat out lose that ability with mancer. If you're to run red, do it for Blasts in SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Running that shell right now:
// Lands
2 [UG] Plains
6 [UG] Island
4 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [NPH] Batterskull
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
2 [TE] Counterspell
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [M12] Ponder
3 [AVR] Terminus
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
SB: 1 [GPX] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [US] Disenchant
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [CMD] Flusterstorm
I couldn't find a better maindeck. Seriously, for me it feels like an ideal build for a Stoneblade deck. Perhaps there should be a Karakas, though I prefer a cleaner manabase. You could splash red for Pyroblasts in SB (or black for discard and perish in SB), but I don't yet feel its necessary. I have a wicked win-streak with this in local tournaments.