[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

@Hollywood:

Why the Sphinx over Griselbrand? Was it because of the discard?

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That's exactly it.

I just wanted to try it out and see if the discard factor was more relevant than drawing cards without anything to dredge in the graveyard.

Turns out Sphinx was just fine. I mean, clearly Griselbrand is Griselbrand, meaning it's incredibly powerful. But Sphinx's draw and discard built into a single card makes it a decent option.

This week I'd like to try out Kelpie again and see how he does.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

([c]Sphinx of Lost Truths[/c])
Turns out Sphinx was just fine. I mean, clearly Griselbrand is Griselbrand, meaning it's incredibly powerful. But Sphinx's draw and discard built into a single card makes it a decent option.

This week I'd like to try out Kelpie again and see how he does.

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B4 I could get my hands on a set of Griselbrand I rocked the SPhinx.
It's a good DR target for sure.
Due to the threat of extraction, maybe having a mix of Sphinx and Griselbrand might be a worthwhile idea?
I might try that out the next time I roll with manaless.

Now that Theros is out, I'm a bit disappointed there's nothing really all that relevant for this deck.
Ashen Rider is cool, but only if Show and Tell.deck is a problem for you, which makes it borderline at best.

Ok, I now have the be all, end all argument against Balustrade Spy, it's a reverse win condition vs Reanimator, which is already one of our worst match ups.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Ok, I now have the be all, end all argument against Balustrade Spy, it's a reverse win condition vs Reanimator, which is already one of our worst match ups.

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In the testing I did with Spy, I did get exactly this treatment a handful of times at most > although this could be due to people not realising the interaction here.
Or it could be that reanimator only packs 4 Reanimate that can target an opponents' grave.
Targeting any of our targets is bad, whether it's flayer, grisel, angel or spy.
They can potentially turn 1 either of our main options here via Thoughtsieze etc. binning something from our hand with help from Lotus Petal, or one of their own creatures, or simply shut us down with counter unless we can go stupid on T2. I don't think we have much of a chance against a fast deck like reanimator that packs counter to back it up, no matter which reanimation targets we're packing.

FWIW, I agree that Spy is an ALL-IN choice with both pro's and con's.

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Originally Posted by slave

Due to the threat of extraction, maybe having a mix of Sphinx and Griselbrand might be a worthwhile idea?

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Having a mix will create variance so when you face decks wherein the discard from sphinx is more relevant then you are well positioned.

However, using extraction as the reason to this is not correct IMO, if the extraction player is targeting the reanimation target then he/she is doing it wrong, Dread Return (targeted after the dredge on the draw phase) is the target so having a mix of DR targets should not really affect extraction.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

That's exactly it.

I just wanted to try it out and see if the discard factor was more relevant than drawing cards without anything to dredge in the graveyard.

Turns out Sphinx was just fine. I mean, clearly Griselbrand is Griselbrand, meaning it's incredibly powerful. But Sphinx's draw and discard built into a single card makes it a decent option.

This week I'd like to try out Kelpie again and see how he does.

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Isn't Phantasmagorian enough discard effect?
You Dredge with the ability, and if you need to discard, you use 1-2 Phantasmagorians in your grave.

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Originally Posted by Gocho

Isn't Phantasmagorian enough discard effect?
You Dredge with the ability, and if you need to discard, you use 1-2 Phantasmagorians in your grave.

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If it is in your graveyard, it would be enough most of the time .
Having more discard effects without drawbacks i.e. reducing threat density or DR targets is not too bad.

There are hands with which you could go bonkers turn 2 but there are not enough dredgers in the yard (but in hand).
Same with Cabal Therapy in hand.

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Originally Posted by Graf_Caligula

If it is in your graveyard, it would be enough most of the time .
Having more discard effects without drawbacks i.e. reducing threat density or DR targets is not too bad.

There are hands with which you could go bonkers turn 2 but there are not enough dredgers in the yard (but in hand).
Same with Cabal Therapy in hand.

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In the same way, a dread return on Balustrade Spy would have just won that game for you.

About the reanimator matchup, if they choose to not entomb Elesh Norn against you, and instead Sandbag a Reanimate for a pontential Spy hitting your Graveyard, you probably have a far higher chance at winning that game than you normally would.
If they do that, you will have a whole free turn to combo out, or just discard their Reanimates with Therapies.

Alternatively, if you were playing with Griselbrands, they could just cast Reanimate on it and win the game anyway, it would just take a few atk steps instead.

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Originally Posted by Modus Pwnens

In the same way, a dread return on Balustrade Spy would have just won that game for you.

About the reanimator matchup, if they choose to not entomb Elesh Norn against you, and instead Sandbag a Reanimate for a pontential Spy hitting your Graveyard, you probably have a far higher chance at winning that game than you normally would.
If they do that, you will have a whole free turn to combo out, or just discard their Reanimates with Therapies.

Alternatively, if you were playing with Griselbrands, they could just cast Reanimate on it and win the game anyway, it would just take a few atk steps instead.

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Well, that's seems very short sighted to me. Reanimator doesn't always have the choice to Entomb for Elesh. You just open up an easy to figure out win-route to them if you dredge into Spy (be it Reanimate or Animate Dead). The point for Grizzly goes to you, but it seems that there may be an OldSchool Sphinx instead of a demon...

Edit: Hey, let's use this for our own game plan and board in a singleton land (maybe 2, if you go the safe-route)...they shall reanimate :cool:

For the heck of it, isn't that what Blightsteel Colossus, Worldspine Wurm are for?

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Originally Posted by ahg113

For the heck of it, isn't that what Blightsteel Colossus, Worldspine Wurm are for?

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Yeah, that's the masterplan. They are even better if opponent casts Show and Tell^^

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Originally Posted by karaxu

However, using extraction as the reason to this is not correct IMO, if the extraction player is targeting the reanimation target then he/she is doing it wrong, Dread Return (targeted after the dredge on the draw phase) is the target so having a mix of DR targets should not really affect extraction.

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True, but for me this is a maybe. It depends on what your opponent is playing and what the board state is like.

I find DR is more a combo alt-win that gets countered more often than not, the zombie attack being the more likely win-con.
Personally I find the dredger's in Imp and Troll, or Bridges getting targeted hurts more, as that pretty much slows our deck to a crawl unless we're already winning.
Targeting DR sucks, but doesn't really hurt that much, as we can then exile griselbrands/Spy for Ichorids, grab Nether Shadows etc. and of course zombie up via the normal grind plan.

Now I'm kinda curious...
Of all of you to play this deck more than a handful of times, which cards get the most extraction hate in your experience?
IME, I find Troll cops it the most.
You?

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Originally Posted by slave

Now I'm kinda curious...
Of all of you to play this deck more than a handful of times, which cards get the most extraction hate in your experience?
IME, I find Troll cops it the most.
You?

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I have piloted Manaless only a couple of times but have faced it using RUG/UR delver on more occasions.

I speak from the opponents side.

My #1 target is bridge from below, I usually let them dredge to it then take the window I have "after dredge" to extract.
More often than not extracting the first dredger would only open up to street wraith tricks or he just have another dredger to discard next turn.

#2 target is DR, but if I see that he can use DR and there are still no bridges in sight then I would extract DR

How are sideboards looking lately? What would you guys pack against an unknown meta? Also, being as Balustrade Spy is, an all in strategy, woul you rather play a 2-2 split of Griselbrand and Flayer of the hatebound and grind games 2/3 or go all in G1 with BS and grind out games 2/3?
One last thing, what do you guys think of Gigapede + Basking Rootwalla?

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Originally Posted by Txisvurger

How are sideboards looking lately?

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Look at the last two pages or so, there you can find some recent lists with SBs.

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Originally Posted by Txisvurger

What would you guys pack against an unknown meta]

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Since Sb even suggested to go fearless, i. e. no anti grave hate cards in the board, you can feel free to pack in cards for MUs you fear most. Otherwise i would suggest SBs you find in the recent posts.

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Originally Posted by Txisvurger

Also, being as Balustrade Spy is, an all in strategy, woul you rather play a 2-2 split of Griselbrand and Flayer of the hatebound and grind games 2/3 or go all in G1 with BS and grind out games 2/3?

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Consense is both, Griselbro and Spy, have some pros and cons. So it is up to you to choose your style. I myself stick with Grisel. When you DR him you also flip your whole Deck, provided you have Dredgers in the yard.

In addition you can draw cards in the meant-to-be way. He also has some interaction with flayer and Life Link.
I would not play a 2-2 split. 3-1 is good since after turning your deck over, chances are good to get the one flayer in the yard.

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Originally Posted by Txisvurger

One last thing, what do you guys think of Gigapede + Basking Rootwalla?

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This duett contributes quite nothing to the deck anymore imho.

The discard effect of Gigapede is nice, but MD space is really thight. Phantasmagorian is just better.

And Rootwalla is bad compared to Dryad Arbor, an uncounterable 1/1 that does not rely on discard.


So that are my two cents. Feel free to comment ;)

Thanks a lot Graf =)

Up to this point I failed to see the point of dryad arbor. Am I right to assume it plays a similar role to the narcomoebas (but this one comes from your hand) once you have started dredging to add fuel for DRs?
Also, a quick question, I don't seem to be seeing as much verdant catacombs in the SBs. Could someone clarify what they were used for? (I must also say I cannot afford them, so using them in my SB is out of the question unfortunately).

Dryad Arbor also helps you cast Reverent Silence and Nature's Claim.

I had two green fetches and a basic forest on my sideboard, to help me cast my anti-hate in games 2 and 3 in addition to arbors. The forest came in against decks with Wasteland.

Is this deck actually playable since the printing of Deathrite Shaman? I mean I see some of the "tech" used against it, but I just don't see how LED Dredge isn't just better.

I consider Deathrite Shaman a fly that I swat at first sight. Manaless Dredge thrashes most decks that run it, as it's either too slow or ineffective.

There aren't many decks in the format that run it that have as fast a clock as you do. I (effectively) mulled to three against Shardless BUG with a double-Contagion hand and wiped it out after he actually mulled to six on the play. There was no pressure thereafter - only permission.

This happens more often than you think.

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Originally Posted by Txisvurger

Up to this point I failed to see the point of dryad arbor. Am I right to assume it plays a similar role to the narcomoebas (but this one comes from your hand) once you have started dredging to add fuel for DRs?
Also, a quick question, I don't seem to be seeing as much verdant catacombs in the SBs. Could someone clarify what they were used for? (I must also say I cannot afford them, so using them in my SB is out of the question unfortunately).

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The main point about Dryad Arbor, is of course fuel for DR and Cabal Therapy, but also that it's uncounterable.

I wouldn't worry too much about not affording Verdant Catacomb's. Just running Forest's is fine, and in fact sometimes it can be beneficial. The potential deck-thinning of the Verdant's is neglible given we have so few lands anyway.
I've dredged my only forest into the graveyard many times, leading me to rely on finding a Dryad Arbor to cast my answers/hate, so I'm currently running 2 Verdant Catacomb's, 2 Forests and 4 Dryad Arbors for green sources for this reason.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I consider Deathrite Shaman a fly that I swat at first sight. Manaless Dredge thrashes most decks that run it, as it's either too slow or ineffective.

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I agree.
We can outrace it most of the time early, after that we just have to play tight.

Regarding Spy VS Grisel, there's heaps of thoughts on this in the thread. There's a whole lot of posts by myself, Final Fortune, RT etc. for idea's.
I honestly don't see either Grisel or Spy being better than the other, just simply a meta choice, heavily influenced by what you expect to face regularly. I think I've tested these two enough to offer this opinion. If you're on the fence, test yourself and post your thoughts! :wink:
For example;
For me I expect to face Charbelcher, Burn and Affinity fairly regularly. Due to these decks having a fast clock and being able to drop your life quickly, I find Spy useful as I can Dread Return it below 7 life. But, if I was expecting to face decks like Sneak/Show, Omnitell or Reanimator more often, I would prefer Griselbrand.
I'm sure you guys can add many, many more scenario's here.