[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

All those have been discussed in the past in this thread, but wurmcoil is too expensive, thragtusk was ok, and in a theory-of-fire oriented meta it is good, Karn again is too expensive, although offers far more utility than wurmcoil, but dies to truename 100%, and drop was just discussed.

Keep in mind, I think gut shot is better than all those.

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Thanks for fast reply:smile:

Have read about most of these cards in this thread, but a few days/weeks ago. Always nice to get up-to-date opinions:wink:

Gut shot...hmmm...great against elves, sure. But doesn't handle DRS nor SFM the way i like it. Perhaps a split of gut shot and dismember?

Ordered some divert last night because double hymn lead to a 1:2 loss against shardless bug (and the draw against nicfit last week in mind). Brainstorm had to be cast before in order to hide snt/titan from thoughtseize...

Even considering to test Rock lee's rug list, since Fire/Ice seems to be so awesome @elves, dnt, while also handling my friends DRS, sfm, Delver (even flipped ones). Perhaps i will try it with a basic mountain and two scalding tarn

Please be reminded that I currently do NOT think the RUG list is superior, for many reasons, which I have previously stated. If DnT goes nuts, this might change.

Finally plunked down the cash for Force of Will...I feel dirty. Thanks to the generosity of others, I'll be able to borrow duals so I'm going to pick up Rock's latest RUG build and abandon my awful mono-green creation. Anyway, it's been a while since I've commented here, but I had some ideas I wanted to bounce off everyone; Rock in particular.

Rock, is there any chance you could update the primer? The deck has evolved quite a bit over time and the OP just looks...lacking. The RUG build in particular doesn't run any Glacial Chasm, Elephant Grass or Pithing Needle, and most of the traditional sweepers and even Chalice of the Void have also fallen by the wayside in both the RUG build and your most recent winner. The aforementioned Force of Will is also a thing now, too. The matchups section also doesn't cover a lot of decks, and while some (or perhaps most) have been discussed in various places on this thread, it would be nice to have things organized a little better. You've also mentioned at a few points that if anyone was interested in things like sideboarding tips that people should speak up. Maybe I'm the only one, but I know I would. Practicing, of course, makes a lot of this stuff better, but at least from my end I get to practice once a week at the most, and at the risk of stating the obvious, nobody knows the deck better than you do. I realize all of this is more work on your part, but if I knew more I would be willing to help wherever I could.

Lastly, one of the guys I play with had an interesting suggestion for an addition to the deck that I don't remember ever coming up (then again my short term memory is awful): Zealous Conscripts. The applications of the card are interesting to me, especially considering that it can steal not only creatures, but planeswalkers. I may try to test it when I have the time but I was wondering if anyone else thought it was at least worth considering some number of them in the 75.

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Originally Posted by Zotmaster

Finally plunked down the cash for Force of Will...I feel dirty. Thanks to the generosity of others, I'll be able to borrow duals so I'm going to pick up Rock's latest RUG build and abandon my awful mono-green creation. Anyway, it's been a while since I've commented here, but I had some ideas I wanted to bounce off everyone; Rock in particular.

Rock, is there any chance you could update the primer? The deck has evolved quite a bit over time and the OP just looks...lacking. The RUG build in particular doesn't run any Glacial Chasm, Elephant Grass or Pithing Needle, and most of the traditional sweepers and even Chalice of the Void have also fallen by the wayside in both the RUG build and your most recent winner. The aforementioned Force of Will is also a thing now, too. The matchups section also doesn't cover a lot of decks, and while some (or perhaps most) have been discussed in various places on this thread, it would be nice to have things organized a little better. You've also mentioned at a few points that if anyone was interested in things like sideboarding tips that people should speak up. Maybe I'm the only one, but I know I would. Practicing, of course, makes a lot of this stuff better, but at least from my end I get to practice once a week at the most, and at the risk of stating the obvious, nobody knows the deck better than you do. I realize all of this is more work on your part, but if I knew more I would be willing to help wherever I could.

Lastly, one of the guys I play with had an interesting suggestion for an addition to the deck that I don't remember ever coming up (then again my short term memory is awful): Zealous Conscripts. The applications of the card are interesting to me, especially considering that it can steal not only creatures, but planeswalkers. I may try to test it when I have the time but I was wondering if anyone else thought it was at least worth considering some number of them in the 75.

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I will try to get to updating the OP. I am sickeningly busy at the moment, barely having time for biweekly events and my weekly local event. The OP is quite outdated though, and I will give it a sprucing up in the next few weeks.

I considered Zealous Conscripts when I was running RUG and trying to SB vs both Jund and SneakyShow. The card is a hefty mana cost, but does its job magnificently. Stealing lilly to -2 them, or stealing a dude to clobber a lilly, or stealing a Griselbrand/sneak-attack are all huge plays.

Ultimately only merited minor consideration in testing though, due to inhibitive mana costs. I think if you're looking for cost-effective red creatures that have the ability to alpha strike a board, Sulfur Elemental is a stronger choice.

So I've been playing been testing Stroke of Genius as a one of to basically serve as Kozilek, Butcher of Truth/Eye of Ugin #2 without conflicting Legend rules because sometimes (like most ramp decks in my experience) sometimes I just ramp into topdecking, and while I'm not completely sold on it yet, I can report some pros and cons from my testing.

Pros:
+Instant Speed (<-!)
+The base :2::u: is not difficult on the mana base.
+I average 4-6 cards when it resolves, but I have gotten 15 before
+I'm looking for 1 or more of 8 cards when I cast this (4 Titans, 3 Eldrazi, Eye).
+It's a mana cheaper to Tidings with Stroke than Koziliek with Eye out.
+I can feed it to Force of Will

Cons:
-While :2::u: isn't difficult, :X: makes this card dead early game (unless I have to feed it to Force).
-Spirit of the Labyrinth has me worried about testing draw more power (at least preboard).
-I have run into a Misdirection.
-If you're looking for something specific to stay alive, unless it is Force of Will, the mana sink aspect of this card often means you find it but can't cast it.
-If I don't need to find a threat, this card is redundant.

I dunno. I'll let others decide. For the moment, I moved a fourth Show and Tell to the side to make room.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

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Originally Posted by Postman

Wantend to ask a question anyway: Atm I'm brainstorming about my "oracle-slot", having a few ideas:

1: wurmcoil engine
2: thragtusk
3: karn
4: drop of honey (ok, this isn't my idea, but i like it:-) )

Would be great to hear some ideas or even results from testing?

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All those have been discussed in the past in this thread, but wurmcoil is too expensive, thragtusk was ok, and in a theory-of-fire oriented meta it is good, Karn again is too expensive, although offers far more utility than wurmcoil, but dies to truename 100%, and drop was just discussed.

Keep in mind, I think gut shot is better than all those.

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I want to mention Karn specifically because I've played him in Cloudpost before and still play him in Modern Tron, and I don't believe Gut Shot > Karn Liberated is a fair assessment. This also ties back to Stroke of Genius.

The problem with Karn Liberated is not that he's too expensive... well, sort of. Karn can solve True-Name Nemesis by restarting the game or even trying because an unchecked Karn is always a lethal Karn. Even if he Legacy Weapons a problem and then acts as Gideon Jura's plus to a True-Name Nemesis (or whatever the hot killing machine is at the moment), that is worth :7: mana (:5: for Legacy Weapon + :2: for Moment's Peace). That would be a great play in Modern... but that's the thing, this isn't Modern.

(I'm not just talking to you Rock Lee now) The problem with Karn is that unlike the aggressive RG Tron dig tactics on 7 mana, Cloudpost decks have to play a more flexible game because Cloudpost enters the battlefield tapped and needs to play around Wasteland, which sucks no matter how good at we are at doing it. To adapt, anything that is not Win Now cards (which is why I'm shaky on Stroke of Genius) risks our victory. And by Win Now, I don't mean "Live Longer" cards, which is what most suggestions that have made the way to this board... mine included... fall under. There are Live Longer cards worth playing and worth mentioning, but sorting the ones to play vs. not play I can say from experience is that it's always easier to check with yourself first. You'd be surprised how often you can answer your own question.

As for my personal assessment of Karn Liberated, if Karn can stick long enough before it gets thrown out of the 75, then please let us know. But my word of warning from when I played it is don't expect it to work like it does in Modern (unless they ban Wasteland, then run 4).

P.S. @Postman
Wurmcoil Engine loses to Swords to Plowshares... hard.
Thragtusk works, but it doesn't assist in reaching Eldrazi like Primeval Titan, Oracle of Mul Daya, or even Trinket Mage. But there is a charm to having a win con that doesn't just point to Emrakul.
Karn Liberated- The tl;dr of what I just said about--Good luck sticking it long enough for significant impact because this ain't Modern son. Also, P.S. I stopped playing it before True-Name came out, but from what I've gathered, Karn can annoy it more than solve it.
Drop of Honey - The more creatures they play, the better this card is. But that also means the more trouble you're in

@Mockingbird: Stroke of Genius seems nice in this deck. Sometimes this decks feels, at least to me, threat light and having a couple of big spells (with the X in the mana cost)is a good way to use the mana that this deck can produce. The important thing is the X in the casting cost because it gives you flexibility. it's true that you want your stroke to be as big as possible, but even drawing 2 or 3 cards in a pinch is a big help: for example it "resets" your top when you don't have a shuffle effect.

For these reasons I like bonfire: in early game it can kill opponent's weenies (even if cast from hand it's not difficoult to cast it for one or two), in mid game it clears bigger threats and speeds the clock of titan if you are racing, and in late game is a win condition: 21 mana equals in killing the opponent.

I think that stroke of genius is more or less the same: in early game it can be pitched to fow, in mid game it draws you some cards which can help you to reset top, in late game it draws you into a winning condition.

How do 12-post players play around the heavy discard and land destruction in decks such as Jund, Pox, and Deadguy Ale? I just can't seem to win a single game vs. them and overall just seems like a horrible matchup.

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Originally Posted by 203995014

How do 12-post players play around the heavy discard and land destruction in decks such as Jund, Pox, and Deadguy Ale? I just can't seem to win a single game vs. them and overall just seems like a horrible matchup.

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Play off the top like a champ. / Hope they don't have God Hand. / Use B-storm smart!

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

I tried several builds with fow main, and ultimately needle main solved the same purpose and more. The deck deals with permanents already when streamlined with maps/x12 cantrip/filter, Thus you only need help against combo or lock (waste/chalice). Pithing Needle hits the best combo decks and waste lock, with the only difficulty being chalice + waste (Aggro Loam/MUD) or chalice + combo (virtually nonexistant).

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I just like the idea of having the force back-up your back-up-plan of digging and then playing show and tell. Against certain decks I use this plan as a huge crutch, admittantley (D&T, Tempo, ect.).

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Originally Posted by Postman

Wantend to ask a question anyway: Atm I'm brainstorming about my "oracle-slot", having a few ideas:

1: wurmcoil engine
2: thragtusk
3: karn
4: drop of honey (ok, this isn't my idea, but i like it:-) )

Would be great to hear some ideas or even results from testing?

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I tested the Sh*t out of Drop of Honey. In order for it to work/buy you the tempo you need, it must be cast on turn 2-3 after a deathrite usually. This forces them into an awkward position. That said, I threw one into my deck just to see how I felt about it, and every time I saw it past turns 2-3 I hated it, or was already getting hurt too bad to win, or was already winning. Needle is just better, more needles, all day long, so so good, doesn't matter when you get it.

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Originally Posted by 203995014

How do 12-post players play around the heavy discard and land destruction in decks such as Jund, Pox, and Deadguy Ale? I just can't seem to win a single game vs. them and overall just seems like a horrible matchup.

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Islands, Sensei's Top and very tight brainstorming are the best way. Against discard, I wont keep a hand that doesn't have access to 2/3 of these things. Needle is also VERY strong against them. I will needle DRS first, then liliana, then wasteland depending on the situation. An open 7 with SnT+Titan is actually pretty poor. Ponders, Sensei's Top and Brainstorm let you play off of the top of your deck reliably and keep hitting land drops. I don't think the RUG version has much of a chance against these black decks. Against hymn decks I'll put in counters over more dead cards and it has worked very well for me. And of course, crop rotation respond to wasteland is great! Oracle is also HUGE, if you run one. Against pox, I will show and tell Oracle, or even a land, often.

Basically, have a basic, get a top going, get another basic and do what you need to do to get the 3 mana win. The worst line is having Snt Titan/whatever assembled in hand and walking straight into a hymn.

Just made top 4 to GPT with a classical UG list:


4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm

1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, The Infinite Gyre
1 Kozilek, Butcher Of Truth
4 Primeval Titan

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Show And Tell
4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
2 Pithing Needle
2 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra Of Tawnos

4 Force Of Will
4 Swan Song
3 Flusterstorm
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Bojuka Bog


I went 3-0 then split in the swiss round, just lose game 2 against elves where he did combo of in the 2nd turn for the 2nd time! Worst part is I could have win if I were more careful.
My matchups were:
1- Some kind of 4C midrange deck with StP, Bolt, Smallpoxn Phyrexian Obliterator and Deathrite Shaman. In game 2 he Hymn-ed me 3 times but my opener was double Top, Crop + 4 lands and it was enough.
2- Elves. I go first, he goes off on his second turn with Glimpse, I crop into Glacial Chasm at 19 PV and he did not manage to have enough sorceries and instants in his GY in order to shoot me with Deathrite. Game 2 goes as descrived above. Game 3, I go for Show And Tell -> Emrakul with double counter backup. He attempted to go off on his 3rd turn but Swan Song stopped him and I had FoW + Brainstorm in hand just in case ;).
3- UW Miracles -> Win.
4- Esper Deathblade-> Draw into top 4. We did play for fun and I won 2-1. In game 3 he managed to put an Humility on the board which was quite frightening because he had Batterskull but I managed to cast Ulamog.

Semis against the Elves deck. I scoop to him because I won't go to Paris and he won the event (earning him 2 byes) against the Esper deck. So I won against the 2 finalists!

The maindeck felt very powerful. The ponders add a lot of resiliency.

Good luck to everybody taking this deck to the GP!

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

Needle is also VERY strong against them. I will needle DRS first, then liliana, then wasteland depending on the situation.

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I've never considered not naming Waste first. Could you please explain?

Can this deck be done without Candelabra Of Tawnos?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Can this deck be done without Candelabra Of Tawnos?

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The RUG version can be played without, although I'm testing a single candelabra (may add a second) because it can one shot opponent with bonfire and helps getting double green for titan.

The problem of three color versions is that it may be difficult to have the needed colored mana.

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Can this deck be done without Candelabra Of Tawnos?

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LOL

Please read the thread for the 20 other times this has been asked.

If you're a troll, hats off.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Can this deck be done without Candelabra Of Tawnos?

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Yes. check mtgpulse.com for decklists. Most recent ones do not have Candles.

EDIT: Also, I went 23-2-1 in the last 6 weeks w/ this deck w/ 0 candles.

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Originally Posted by That nice guy

LOL

Please read the thread for the 20 other times this has been asked.

If you're a troll, hats off.

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Good response, lol. But seriously, I guess it technically it isn't required, but it is certainly optimal. Again, leaving out candle is absolutely less optimal. Besides the obvious benefits, without it you're effectively putting 100% of the work load on SnT/Titan. The colorless explosive hands are a line that a refuse to skimp on - why cut off an entire win path?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Can this deck be done without Candelabra Of Tawnos?

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TECHNICALLY it can, but it is not a good idea. You need to be able to cast Primeval Titan off of one tropical island and this allows you to play through mana denial a little better.

RUG list on the other hand if you're in a meta infested with fair decks then you don't have to run Candelabra (you probably can't anyway!)

@ Tim:
Hey! Answer my question!

@ not running candle:
Rock Lee used to run some terrible (and I mean terrible!) builds and he did ok, which just goes to show the sheer power of the build. Just be good at magic.

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Originally Posted by That nice guy

I've never considered not naming Waste first. Could you please explain?

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In general, when you lead with basics wasteland should not bother you too much. I even like to bait them into crop response. Wastes become an issue if they're together with pressure. Jund is so strong in that with DRS, they can afford to waste+disrupt, waste+threat, disrupt+threat on turns 2-3. If you delay this plan by holding off DRS by needle or repeal, you've stopped broken double plays for the next two turns or more. Now you won't be hymned AND wasted till at least turn 3, liliana/ waste till turn 4, etc.. You can see how much more breathing room you now have. Most scary plays by Jund are with 3 mana on turn 2, 4 mana turn 3. The other line that is left is Thoughtsieze then hymn, which you should be ready to top and brainstorm around.

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Originally Posted by TimHarding

In general, when you lead with basics wasteland should not bother you too much. I even like to bait them into crop response. Wastes become an issue if they're together with pressure. Jund is so strong in that with DRS, they can afford to waste+disrupt, waste+threat, disrupt+threat on turns 2-3. If you delay this plan by holding off DRS by needle or repeal, you've stopped broken double plays for the next two turns or more. Now you won't be hymned AND wasted till at least turn 3, liliana/ waste till turn 4, etc.. You can see how much more breathing room you now have. Most scary plays by Jund are with 3 mana on turn 2, 4 mana turn 3. The other line that is left is Thoughtsieze then hymn, which you should be ready to top and brainstorm around.

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Thank you!

Discard is annoying but waste is really what the deck loses to. So I guess I just think that you're delaying the inevitable vs. Jund by not naming waste first. Also, I only run two needle, so maybe that's why I'm thinking, "well what if I only get one?". With 2 needle I just let ponder find it.