[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

"V. Clique is another threat against control and combo, and isn't too bad elsewhere. She could sometimes take the Tasigur slot in the maindeck, but I've been happy with Goyf #5 for the time being."

I've never tested Tasigur, but something else to consider if you want Tarmogoyf #5 would be Scavenging Ooze. There was a time when it was correct to bring in Scavenging Ooze in the RUG Delver mirrors as Tarmogoyf #5 and of course to keep their Nimble Mongoose under control. I don't see why the same concept wouldn't apply now. In fact, Scavenging Ooze is a great way to break Deathrite Shaman stalemates.

Honestly, running only 12 threats is fine, and you can make valid arguments for just about any option for the creature slot(s) 13-14.

The advantages Tasigur has over Ooze: only costs potentially 1 B; is immediately threatening; dodges Bolt and Decay; does not require any mana investment; can potentially gain card advantage.

That all said, you could make equally compelling arguments for Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant, baleful strix, Tombstalker, TNN, Clique, nimble mongoose, heck even fringe stuff like Chasm Stalker, Quirion Dryad, Trygon Predator, Kitchen Finks, etc. Pretty much every creature is going to have a scenario where it's better than the alternatives.

Hi guys -- I'm breaking into blue with this deck because the best prices I found on duals were seas and trops, go figure. I'm looking for a little help getting going while I acquire all the cards.

Goyf is a sticking point with me, I just dropped a few hundred on priceless, unreprintable duals and I'm not really ready to spend 6 bills on a set of creatures that die to all removal and GY hate and could be reprinted again in June. I'd like to hold off till then to pick them up.

When I played against BUG delver back in the pre-cruise days, the creature that always killed me was TNN. So I'm planning on playing a couple of them. I also think a couple Delve creatures would be good to combat opposing tarmogoyfs and give me that "cheaty" beater.

This is the sketch of what I'm starting with:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Hooting Mandrills

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare (this is my 4th force for the moment until I track down one at a decent price)

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

That gives me 7 slots to play with. Should it just be 3 Hymn, 4 Seize? Is it worth playing more removal MD? I really want to play Tombstalker as my delve creature but feel I should err on the side of only requiring one mana. Tasigur could have minor upside in longer games, while Mandrills beats opposing TNNs nicely.

Thanks for any help.

My instinct is either Scavenging Ooze or Quirion Dryad would be better than Mandrills, and I'd run 4 of whatever before adding 7 disruption slots above what you're already running. As for what disruption to run, your manabase (and TNN) really favor a blue-heavy list, so I'd go with Stifle. It also lets you cut narrow cards like Spell Snare for a third Pierc because it will stay good longer or you could cut the Snare and add a piece of flexible MD removal like Disfigure, Diabolic Edict, or Dismember.

V Clique is another good one. Plays the role of both a threat and disruption.

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Originally Posted by Fallacy

V Clique is another good one. Plays the role of both a threat and disruption.

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That is one reason I like Clique. Another is that, while I have run Tombstalker before and rarely had an issue (besides it being in the opening 7), I think there is some value in running a threat that does not rely on the Graveyard at all. Chances are good that Rest in Peace will be seen much more now than while Cruise was still legal, so the time to be even just a little less Graveyard-centric might be now.

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Originally Posted by maharis

Hi guys -- I'm breaking into blue with this deck because the best prices I found on duals were seas and trops, go figure. I'm looking for a little help getting going while I acquire all the cards.

Goyf is a sticking point with me, I just dropped a few hundred on priceless, unreprintable duals and I'm not really ready to spend 6 bills on a set of creatures that die to all removal and GY hate and could be reprinted again in June. I'd like to hold off till then to pick them up.

When I played against BUG delver back in the pre-cruise days, the creature that always killed me was TNN. So I'm planning on playing a couple of them. I also think a couple Delve creatures would be good to combat opposing tarmogoyfs and give me that "cheaty" beater.

This is the sketch of what I'm starting with:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Hooting Mandrills

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare (this is my 4th force for the moment until I track down one at a decent price)

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

That gives me 7 slots to play with. Should it just be 3 Hymn, 4 Seize? Is it worth playing more removal MD? I really want to play Tombstalker as my delve creature but feel I should err on the side of only requiring one mana. Tasigur could have minor upside in longer games, while Mandrills beats opposing TNNs nicely.

Thanks for any help.

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Only 3 Forces and no Goyfs will not become an optimal list, but I'll try to send you in the right direction.

Creatures:
- Tasigur seems strictly better than Mandrils.
* Note that other than the above, every guy has upsides and downsides.

Spells:
* First question you need to ask yourself is: do I play tapout strategy, or reactive strategy.
- Tapout strategy has Hymn, Daze, Force and perhaps Thoughtseize as disruption.
- Reactive strategy has Spell Pierce, maybe Stifle, maybe Spell Snare next to Force and Daze.

Lands:
- Tapout strategy has BB in many mana cost. Bayou is an important land here.
- Reactive strategy often runs no card costing BB at all. Bayou is not needed here.

Suggested lists for both strats (sideboards not included, we can do those later):

Tapout NoGoyf 3FoW TA 4 Delver 4 Deathrite 3 Tasigur 2 True-Name Nemesis 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder 4 Daze 3 Force of Will 1 Thoughtseize 4 Hymn to Tourach 1 Sylvan Library 4 Abrupt Decay 2 Liliana of the Veil 4 Sea 2 Bayou 1-2 Tropical 8-9 UBG Fetch 4 Wasteland

Reactive NoGoyf 3FoW TA 4 Delver 4 Deathrite 3 Tasigur 2 True-Name Nemesis 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder 4 Daze 3 Force of Will 4 Stifle 3 Spell Pierce 1 Sylvan Library 4 Abrupt Decay 4 Sea 3 Tropical 8 UBG Fetch 4 Wasteland

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Originally Posted by maharis

Hi guys -- I'm breaking into blue with this deck because the best prices I found on duals were seas and trops, go figure. I'm looking for a little help getting going while I acquire all the cards.

Goyf is a sticking point with me, I just dropped a few hundred on priceless, unreprintable duals and I'm not really ready to spend 6 bills on a set of creatures that die to all removal and GY hate and could be reprinted again in June. I'd like to hold off till then to pick them up.

When I played against BUG delver back in the pre-cruise days, the creature that always killed me was TNN. So I'm planning on playing a couple of them. I also think a couple Delve creatures would be good to combat opposing tarmogoyfs and give me that "cheaty" beater.

This is the sketch of what I'm starting with:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Hooting Mandrills

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare (this is my 4th force for the moment until I track down one at a decent price)

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

That gives me 7 slots to play with. Should it just be 3 Hymn, 4 Seize? Is it worth playing more removal MD? I really want to play Tombstalker as my delve creature but feel I should err on the side of only requiring one mana. Tasigur could have minor upside in longer games, while Mandrills beats opposing TNNs nicely.

Thanks for any help.

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Definitely give 4 Hymn a try.

Before buying anything else, get yourself a Sylvan Library.

Against Miracles, what would be preferred SB'ing on play and draw? My SB looks like this:

2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 GD Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique

I posted my deck a few days ago if you want to see MB, but it's the stock build (4 Hymns, 12 creatures, 1 Spell Pierce, 1 Sylvan Library, 2 Liliana, etc.).

On play:
-X Abrupt Decay, Keep any for SDTop?
-X Wasteland
Keep 4 Daze in, or cut any?

+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod? Is a 1-of too narrow for SDTop?
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Vendilion Clique
+X Flusterstorm

On draw:
-X Abrupt Decay, Keep any for SDTop?
-X Wasteland

+2 Golgari Charm? (for Counterbalance)
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod? Is a 1-of too narrow for SDTop?
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Vendilion Clique
+X Flusterstorm

Input appreciated!

You can usually cut the 2nd Bayou, all of the Dazes (especially on draw), and 2-4 Wasteland depending on if your opponent is fetching basics. Don't cut any Decay unless you know for certain he's cutting Counterbalance, even then you don't want to lose to Blood Moon or Rest in Peace. You can cut some Hymns if you need more slots. If you need even more slots, it's sometimes okay to cut a Goyfs or two since it's often the worst threat in this matchup

Definitely bring in Null Rod. Besides SDT, it shuts of engineered explosives and any other random artifacts they might have.

Based on your list I would probably do something like this on both the play and draw:

-3 Abrupt Decay (not too many good targets since most opponents side out Counterbalance)
-4 Daze (they always play around this; games go long so it is bad topdeck late)
-2 Wasteland (they run a lot of basics and generally will not attacks your mana)
-1 Tarmogoyf (dies to everything and RIP; bring in Clique for this)
-1 Hymn (bring in Thoughtseize to gain perfect information and hit win cons rather than random cards)

+2 Flusterstorm (win stack wars)
+1 Pithing Needle (names SDT and Jace)
+1 Spell Pierce (good utility)
+2 Golgari Charm (kills Counterbalance, RIP, Moat, Energy Field, Snapcaster, Clique; also regenerates dorks in response to Supreme Verdict)
+1 Null Rod (shuts off SDT and Batterskull)
+1 Krosan Grip (kills SDT, Batterskull, Counterbalance, RIP, Moat, Energy Field)
+1 Maelstrom Pulse (kills Jace, Angel tokens)
+1 Vendilion Clique (in response to miracle trigger; can pressure Jace EOT)
+1 Thoughtseize (nab SDT turn 1 or Jace later)

I think there are valid arguments to sideboarding differently based on play style. I know some like to keep in Daze/Wasteland on the play to try and win quickly. I also believe there is merit to cutting some discard since games go long and it is a bad topdeck late. Personally, I have found the best way to beat the deck is to keep them off SDT; without the card selection they are just a bad control deck.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

"However I think it's fair to say that if you're running Stifle, you need to justify why you're not playing Lightning Bolt, which opens a whole other line of reasoning."

1) Abrupt Decay
2) Deathrite Shaman
2) RUG has a lot of trouble with removing True-Name Nemesis and Tarmogoyf
3) Better matchup vs combo because of being able to play with discard spells
4) Better long game with the ability to drain opponent's health with Deathrite Shaman
5) The ability to blow up an opponent's board and keep them hellbent with Liliana of the Veil
6) This deck has room to play bombs like True-Name Nemesis, Tombstalker, or maybe even Tasigur, the Golden Fang
7) Better matchup vs Miracles with better outs to Counterbalance locks
8) Better game 1 matchups vs GY based decks due to Deathrite Shaman
9) Has an easier time surviving stifle and wasteland when we have Deathrite Shaman to still make us mana
10) Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay give us outs to getting Blood Moon'd
11) More outs to opposing True-Name Nemesis that coincidentally works great against Death and Taxes and Elves
12) Abrupt Decay is an efficient way out of a resolved Rest in Peace

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You've outlined 12 awesome reasons why to play BUG, but none of why to play stifle in BUG that works better than stifle in RUG. Basically, what I believe he was asking, is why are you playing stifle in a list that can't capitalize on it the way RUG can?

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

You've outlined 12 awesome reasons why to play BUG, but none of why to play stifle in BUG that works better than stifle in RUG. Basically, what I believe he was asking, is why are you playing stifle in a list that can't capitalize on it the way RUG can?

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What is it you think BUG is missing that RUG has (bolt?) where BUG can't capitalize on stifle as well as RUG?
Is it Nimble mongoose vs DRS? Because otherwise we have Goyfs and Delvers as well.
You (can) play Stifle in BUG because it helps w/ the Daze/Wasteland tempo plan just like it does in RUG. The only diff in RUG it also helps reach Threshold coincidentally by being a spell that goes to the GY.

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Originally Posted by sauce

What is it you think BUG is missing that RUG has (bolt?)

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Yes

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Originally Posted by drocker23

"However I think it's fair to say that if you're running Stifle, you need to justify why you're not playing Lightning Bolt, which opens a whole other line of reasoning."

1) Abrupt Decay
2) Deathrite Shaman
2) RUG has a lot of trouble with removing True-Name Nemesis and Tarmogoyf
3) Better matchup vs combo because of being able to play with discard spells
4) Better long game with the ability to drain opponent's health with Deathrite Shaman
5) The ability to blow up an opponent's board and keep them hellbent with Liliana of the Veil
6) This deck has room to play bombs like True-Name Nemesis, Tombstalker, or maybe even Tasigur, the Golden Fang
7) Better matchup vs Miracles with better outs to Counterbalance locks
8) Better game 1 matchups vs GY based decks due to Deathrite Shaman
9) Has an easier time surviving stifle and wasteland when we have Deathrite Shaman to still make us mana
10) Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay give us outs to getting Blood Moon'd
11) More outs to opposing True-Name Nemesis that coincidentally works great against Death and Taxes and Elves
12) Abrupt Decay is an efficient way out of a resolved Rest in Peace

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I was playing BRUG, i guess i'm going to resleeve BUG back.

This does not help your argument stifle is better than hymn though

1. Abrupt decay - makes no difference between stifle and hymn
2. deathrite - no difference. It may even help with stifle instead since you can tap out on your real lands and keep this sucker at bay.
3. No difference between stifle and hymn
4. same as above
5. same as above
6. we all love bombs. But no difference.
7. stifle helps with miracles A LOT
8. no difference, in fact, stifle is probably better since you wont help discard them.
9. same
10. same
11. RUG does have a slight edge with Pyroclasm.
12. I love them decays man.

I dont' see why BUG can't play stifle. There is no reason stifle is relegated to RUG. In fact the things you mentioned may be better with stifle than hymn. I've stifled a RIP before. Its pretty sweet.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Only 3 Forces and no Goyfs will not become an optimal list, but I'll try to send you in the right direction.

Creatures:
- Tasigur seems strictly better than Mandrils.
* Note that other than the above, every guy has upsides and downsides.

Spells:
* First question you need to ask yourself is: do I play tapout strategy, or reactive strategy.
- Tapout strategy has Hymn, Daze, Force and perhaps Thoughtseize as disruption.
- Reactive strategy has Spell Pierce, maybe Stifle, maybe Spell Snare next to Force and Daze.

Lands:
- Tapout strategy has BB in many mana cost. Bayou is an important land here.
- Reactive strategy often runs no card costing BB at all. Bayou is not needed here.

Suggested lists for both strats (sideboards not included, we can do those later):

Tapout NoGoyf 3FoW TA 4 Delver 4 Deathrite 3 Tasigur 2 True-Name Nemesis 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder 4 Daze 3 Force of Will 1 Thoughtseize 4 Hymn to Tourach 1 Sylvan Library 4 Abrupt Decay 2 Liliana of the Veil 4 Sea 2 Bayou 1-2 Tropical 8-9 UBG Fetch 4 Wasteland

Reactive NoGoyf 3FoW TA 4 Delver 4 Deathrite 3 Tasigur 2 True-Name Nemesis 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder 4 Daze 3 Force of Will 4 Stifle 3 Spell Pierce 1 Sylvan Library 4 Abrupt Decay 4 Sea 3 Tropical 8 UBG Fetch 4 Wasteland

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Decks clunky without goyf. Especially with a delve creature. and a 3 of as well.

Thanks guys. I'm surprised there isn't more love for the delve creatures as goyf replacements. I'm aware that Goyf is Goyf, just want to see what MM2 holds before committing major dollars. Now watch them reprint Underground Sea there and I look silly (joking!)

I'm correct to not run more than 2 TNN right? Mana seems tough there. My idea behind the Delve cards is that between them and DRS I should be able to control opposing goyfs.

I didn't realize Sylvan Library was standard in this deck now, that's sweet. I've been playing rock/junk for a while now, card is insane.

I think I'll go for a more tapout style so I can play hymn/lili/extra removal. Thanks again for the assist. I'll figure out some extra creature.

What's up with that Tasigur-Hype lately? Am I the only one that thinks that this dude is extremely overrated and bad? :laugh:
No, seriously - why would you prefer this guy over Tombstalker?? :confused:

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Originally Posted by kryllex

What's up with that Tasigur-Hype lately? Am I the only one that thinks that this dude is extremely overrated and bad? :laugh:
No, seriously - why would you prefer this guy over Tombstalker?? :confused:

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I also think he sucks. Rather play big ol tombstalker than him. I know its 1 B, but getting to 2 B in this deck is not hard and especially if you run such a low number of taisgur. If you run 4, i understand the stress on the mana base.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

I also think he sucks. Rather play big ol tombstalker than him. I know its 1 B, but getting to 2 B in this deck is not hard and especially if you run such a low number of taisgur. If you run 4, i understand the stress on the mana base.

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I agree that Tasigur is generally underwhelming and Karakas exists. I actually wanted to play tombstalker but I was worried about Bayou + Daze. Maybe I should switch to a midrange build until I pick up Goyfs.