[Deck] Grixis Tempo

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

Besides you should leave in like 2 Forces, there are some situations in the mirror where you just have to counter something like an Angler or Pyromancer, otherwise you're dead.

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See, I really want to side out all of my Gitaxian Probes and Forces in the mirror, and I actually struggle finding 7 boardable cards in the board. I only like keeping a couple of Forces in if I'm playing against a Stifle list, since you need to be able to interact on very low resources, and even then possibly only the draw. But I definitely don't want any on the play against a non-stifle Delver list.

I thank you for your feedback though, it is much appreciated. I can totally see 2 mana being too costly for something that only deals with soft targets such as Delver and DRS. I will keep testing, but more feedback is welcome.

I think 1 Probe isn't the worst to keep in in the mirror when you run them anyways. It's an easy way to get 2 tokens out of a YP with only 3 mana before the opponent can kill him.
Personally I mostly seem to lose the mirror due to resolving less Gurmag Anglers than my opponent. Our removal is so redundant that everything else gets killed super quickly, but the Anglers are really tough to deal with once resolved. Of Course TNNs are even harder, but at least those cost 3 mana and can be easier stopped by Dazes and Pyroblasts.
Forces also help salvaging those Dazes in the lategame which is really nice.

Hey everyone,

Sleeved up Grixis Delver for a Duel for Duals tournament this weekend. 32 people, 5 rounds cut to top 8. Won the event and an Unlimited Underground Sea. Deck is pretty great. Went 6-0-2 in matches, double drew into top eight after first three rounds and was the third 3rd seed in the top eight.

List

4 deathrite shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Young Pyromancer
2 True Name
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Force
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
4 Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 flooded strand
2 misty
2 scalding tarn
3 volcanic
2 underground
1 tropical
4 wasteland

Sideboard

2 ancient grudge
1 dread of night
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sudden demise
1 flusterstorm
2 pyroblast
2 cabal therapy
2 surgical extraction
1 grafdigger's cage
2 diabolic edict

Matches

Burn 2-1 (IN: Jitte, Flusterstorm, 2 Cabal therapy; OUT: 3 Probe, 1 dismember)
Jund 2-0 (In: 2 Edict; Out: 2 Force of Will)
LED Dredge 2-1 (In: 2 Pyroblast, 2 surgical, 1 cage, 1 flusterstorm; Out: 4 Bolt, 1 dismember, 1 Gurmag Angler)***
Enchantress ID
Manaless ID

TOP 8
Manaless 2-1 (In: 2 surgicals, 1 cage, 1 flusterstorm; Out: 3 Bolt, 1 dismember)
UR Delver 2-1 (In: 2 pyroblast, 1 flusterstorm, 1 jitte; Out: 4 Force)
LED Dredge 2-1 (same as round 3)***

*** was tempted to bring in sudden demise against LED dredge to deal with initial zombie hordes if I was able to shut off the graveyard after they exploded for board presence, but ultimately decided against it.

Hey Guys,
i saw this list a couple of times now. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/779614#online
It looks like this guy has decent results with it and i like this "canadian thresh" style. Someone knows who this is or has experience with the list? is it worth playing/testing?

thanks for your answers :)

Cool list. Not playing True Name Nemesis is wrong, though.

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Originally Posted by blablub

Hey Guys,
i saw this list a couple of times now. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/779614#online
It looks like this guy has decent results with it and i like this "canadian thresh" style. Someone knows who this is or has experience with the list? is it worth playing/testing?

thanks for your answers :)

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As much as I love Snapcaster Mage, he's really hard to get away with in this deck, as flashing back a spell at best competes with a more impactful 3-drop like TNN or Kolaghan's Command, and at worst never happens when it's relevant. I'd much rather keep those spells in my yard and use them to cast an Angler or dome my opponent with a DRS/Grim Lavamancer. You also lose the ability to go wide with Young Pyromancer.

I think every list is worth testing, but if you want to utilize Snapcaster effectively I think you have to either run more lands, or fewer Gurmag Anglers, and if you do that you're moving towards a Grixis/Czech Control build anyways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blablub

Hey Guys,
i saw this list a couple of times now. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/779614#online
It looks like this guy has decent results with it and i like this "canadian thresh" style. Someone knows who this is or has experience with the list? is it worth playing/testing?

thanks for your answers :)

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I built and played a list very similar to this one way back in February this year, as I thought that Therapy Grixis Delver was just not good enough in a metagame full of Miracles, Aluren, Food Chain and Czech Pile just starting to catch on. At the time I considered it to be a meta call to play this version of the deck. I played 2 True-Name Nemeses over the 2 Snapcasters, 2 Gitaxian Probes instead of 2 Spell Snares, and the 4th Stifle over the Forked Bolt. The deck felt fine, but a little shaky with a lot of the threats being curve toppers and, thus, a little clunky. I haven't played that version of the deck since the banning of Sensei's Top, and if I feel like I am in the mood to play Stifle, I usually just go to play actual Canadian Threshold, because the deck is just far better tuned than this kind of list, and plays better with Stifle. Not to say that this deck is worse, just that Canadian Threshold is a better home for Stifle.

I do think that this version of Stifle Grixis is worth exploring more, because I think, from experience playing the deck, that this deck is not optimized. My initial idea when building my version of the deck was that since Young Pyromancer played poorly with Stifle, I would remove it from the deck and open up a bit of a hole on my mana curve to accomadate for Stifle, and rely on top end to capitalize on mana advantage and to attack the metagame with difficult to handle threats.

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Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan

if I feel like I am in the mood to play Stifle, I usually just go to play actual Canadian Threshold, because the deck is just far better tuned than this kind of list, and plays better with Stifle. Not to say that this deck is worse, just that Canadian Threshold is a better home for Stifle.

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Whenever I read this argument, all I see is "stifle is an absolute necessity in Canadian threshold since that deck is inexcusably underpowered by today's standards, whereas it is merely an option in grixis delver".

I am a sucker for synergy, but the banning of sensei's divining top removed the last excuse left for playing mongoose in legacy. The premier control deck of the format now runs 4drs and 3/4 baleful strixes.

Also, I've found the lack of sinergy between yp and stifle to be greatly exaggerated: if you can tap out and swarm with pyromancer, just swarm with pyromancer. That's still so good that making your stifles a little worse is a totally acceptable price to pay.

Thanks for your replays, the decision isnt easy i guess :D

general question for all Delverdecks, what do you think is the best way to beat the Pile? Shroud Creatures? Price of Progress? Im not sure how to win against those "4 Baleful Strix 8972323 Removal-Spell 4 Snapcaster" Deck :(

I think that Bob Huang's list, is a better way to beat Czech.decks.

This list plays 2 TNN that really shines against their Strix and removals. 2 Spell Pierces, that can stop easily a flashbacked removal via Snapcaster.

The sideboard also, have great cards like Grim Lavamancer and Izzet Staticaster to deal with their Strix/Snaps and PoP, to punish their greedy manabase.

But in the end, those Czech.decks are a really pain, no matter what you do. Lol.

Best regards from Brazil :)

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Originally Posted by Nola

I think that Bob Huang's list, is a better way to beat Czech.decks.

This list plays 2 TNN that really shines against their Strix and removals. 2 Spell Pierces, that can stop easily a flashbacked removal via Snapcaster.

The sideboard also, have great cards like Grim Lavamancer and Izzet Staticaster to deal with their Strix/Snaps and PoP, to punish their greedy manabase.

But in the end, those Czech.decks are a really pain, no matter what you do. Lol.

Best regards from Brazil :)

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Do you have a link to the List? i cant find it, thx

edit: found it, someone knows the exact baording plan of this list against the pile?

Went 5-0 (10-2-1) in a league the other day with my list. I'm posting this because somebody was asking about a stifle build that was more "Canadian".

Creatures (12):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
2 True-Name-Nemesis

Instants/sorceries (30):
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push

Lands (18):
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Marsh Casualties

Round 1 against r4wk5t4r (BUG Delver):

G1 I keep a hand with 2 wastelands, 2 lands, ponder, stifle and a TNN. I pondered for a pair of bolts since I knew he was on some sort of delver build. I continue drawing all my 4 wastelands and bolt/waste/stifle everything he has which for some reason makes my opponent quite salty.

In: 2 Pyroblast
Out: 2 FoW
I knew from mtgtop8 that he wasn't playing any Bobs or TNNs as Marsh Casualties targets, but Leovold so I thought it might be worth a shot. I realize that Pyroblast is very mediocre in this matchup, but countering a cantrip is fine and pyroblasting TNN/Strix/FoW/Delver is awesome.

G2 I keep a hand of Usea, DRS, Stifle, Ponder, Bolt and 2 Spell Snares. Not optimal, but since he's playing BUG I doubt he plays super heavy mana denial with stifle (I haven't seen hymn either, but Bayou, besides hymn is pretty standard). Keeping open Spell Snare + Stifle on t1 should I draw a land seems good.
My opponent lands a delver off an usea which I'm ok with, at least it's not a DRS. I draw a FoW and ponder. Reason being that my shaman can easily get killed and I don't want to FoW a removal spell. I cast a ponder, hoping to look innocently enough that my opponent doesn't counter it. He dazes it though and I force back, find another land, push and delver. My opponent has wasteland which explains his aggressive daze on my ponder though I'd argue he would've been in a worse spot had I played a daze myself because his t2 wasteland wouldn't have had any target.
My opponent keeps wastelanding me while staying on Usea only himself, but I manage to draw a usea, play a shaman, stifle his second fetch and he continues drawing nonlands. He concedes and reveals a hand of 2 hymn, 1 golgari charm, goyf and more.

Round 2 against Cwoj (Grixis Delver):
G1 I have a pretty nutty starting hand in Delver, 2 lands, 2 wastelands, daze and brainstorm. I play delver and pass. Interestingly enough my opponent probes me, then proceeds to fetch for usea and plays deathrite. This signals that he has daze so I don't daze even though I have no removal for DRS. I figure that Daze will be live enough the following turns due to my 2 wastelands. I brainstorm in my upkeep (something I normally don't do) to flip my delver. Note that since I'm the initiator I'll win any daze-war here. I get to reveal a fatal push and kill his DRS. My opponent doesn't daze, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have it since he's aware of my own daze.
My opponent plays a delver into my daze with usea and volcanic out, but I don't take the daze-bait since he's at 11 already due to his Gitaxian probes with me being at 20. Besides I still think he has a daze and my 2 Useas are tapped.
I waste his volcanic the next turn and hold up stifle and daze with 2 mana, rendering his daze useless. My opponent doesn't recoup and I win with Delver.

Out: 4 FoW, 2 Spell Snare
In: Pyroblast, REB, Hydroblast, Edict, 2 Marsh Casualties

G2 my opponent lands a t1 delver which I REB, we proceed to trade removal spells. He loses because he sets himself 2 cards behind by forcing a 2 lightning bolts, one of which I Spell Pierce. I really went away from FoWs in this matchup, a better way than forcing the angler seems to pyroblast/spell pierce the cantrips that find his threats in the first place.

Round 3 against g0ld_rook (Doomsday):
G1 I mulligan to 6 because of no lands and keep a mediocre hand with 2 useas, stifle, fatal push, ponder and TNN, topping a DRS. My opponent leads with Tundra which leads me to believe he's Miracles or Stoneblade. He proceeds with a fetch and I'm able to stifle the obvious fetch after his eot brainstorm. He lands a Usea and proceeds to go off through Spell Pierce with 2 Dark Rituals, 2 LEDs and Burning Wish for Tendrils.

Out: 4 Bolt, 2 Fatal Push, 2 TNN
In: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Marsh Casualties, Hydroblast, 1 Surgical
I didn't really know what to expect and thought about Empty the Warrens out of the wishboard, hence the Marsh Casualties.

G2 I keep a bit of a slower hand with 2 fetches, 2 brainstorms, ponder, marsh casualties and surgical extraction. I know he isn't the quickest of storm decks and that if he were to go for a quick empty I'd have the answer so I kept. I ponder, find daze and FoW and daze his t1 duress off basic swamp. Knowing that he's not really a PiF deck I surgical duress on his draw step and he reveals burning wish, cabal therapy, dark ritual, doomsday, LED, preordain and usea. I was hoping he hasn't drawn another discard spell besides duress but he has the therapy. More importantly he's very close to go off.
In his library he reveals 3 Monastery Mentor which explain the white splash and looked pretty scary. I also note he has no storm cards in the mainboard.
He preordains, tops and bottoms and passes the turn.
I brainstorm into double spell-pierce on my turn and shuffle away a land and the marsh casualties which has been confirmed garbage. Leaving one mana up it makes me feel a bit better, but I still lack a clock. Thankfully I draw a delver for the next turn and pierce a ponder on my opp's turn since I figured that if he found a land my pierces would be pretty useless anyways.
I brainstorm eot because I'm still pretty tight on mana and want to keep open spell pierce, finding a thoughtseize, stifle and misty.
After I cast the hand disruption that I revealed to delver on my next turn I see Probe, Burning Wish, Dark Ritual, LED, Therapy, Doomsday and Monastery Mentor.
Though the hand looks super scary I have to take the mentor because my clock is garbage and I have no removal left in my deck.
I ponder though it's my "blue card" for FoW, figuring that I need to set up my next draw steps which would've consisted of drs and 2 lands. I shuffle and draw Marsh Casualties again. Ugh.
He draws a Volcanic, wishes for a second cabal therapy and takes the spell pierce, leaving me with FoW, Stifle and Casualties.
I draw a second stifle and force his therapy next turn, leaving the card I just drew a mystery. He goes for it and I stifle the storm trigger of Tendrils.

Well, that was a close one. Now that I got a look at his deck though due to surgical I can board correctly:
+2 Pyroblast
-2 Marsh Casualties
In hindsight I should've kept in 2 bolts instead of the 2 anglers because bolt or bolt+drs in response to doomsday is lethal when he's 10 or below. I just figured that he'd board out the mentors now I've seen them. I thought about lab-man, but most of the time they have an instant-way to draw cards which makes removal useless unless you have 2 of them.

I start mulliganing a nonland-hand (well, wasteland) into a mediocre drs, 2 bs, wasteland, usea and fetch, bottoming an angler. My opponent mulls to 5 though so I feel quire confident.
He leads with fetch and I draw a stifle, deciding to keep open a land and pass the turn. Not what I'd always do, but the fear of cabal therapy for my brainstorms and the fact that I also have wasteland help me making this decision.
He proceeds to fetch after fetch which isn't the best for me, but I rip delver, thoughtseize and another stifle off a brainstorm.
Next turn I take his brainstorm and leave him with a lonely dark-ritual, burning wish and usea.
My next brainstorm reveals thoughtseize and surgical so I discard his wish and surgical it. I see no other win condition left in his deck besides lab man, as I suspected he boarded out the mentors.
The next turn he's able to fire off his 1-of act on impulse, he even gets a lab man, but I pyroblast it and he concedes.

Round 4 against Bryant Cook (TES):
Bryant might be the best TES player out there, but at least I know which hands I have to mulligan when playing against him. That said I would've mulliganed my no-lander anyways. My second hand with Usea, fetch, waste, stifle, FoW and brainstorm looks better.
The rest of the game was pretty textbook: I stifled a delta after he brainstormed t2 off island. The next turn he probes me, then plays usea and dark rit. Knowing I can waste him next turn I FoW the ritual, leaving him with a lonely island, flipping with a very feel-good daze.
He goes off on his last possible round with chrome mox and badlands. I exile his first rite of flame in response to the second and daze his burning wish which prompts a concession.

Out: 4 Bolt, 2 Push, 2 TNN, 1 Angler
In: 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Marsh Casualties, 2 Surgical, 1 Hydroblast

I know that TES isn't gy-based, I like the surgical for the same reason I liked them vs. Doomsday though: I have so many counters that halfing his discard spells (duress, cabal therapy) is decent, besides I can get doubles I know off from thoughtseize, tutors or worst-case look at his hand instantly to see whether I have to FoW a ritual or wait for the tutor because he has no discard.

G2 I keep a hand with delver, cantrips, surgical and a daze which gets taken t1 via duress. I draw a FoW and surgical his duresses to determine whether I have to dig for additional disruption or can play the delver. Cabal Therapy, Infernal Tutor, LED and 2 Petals tell me that FoW might not be enough next turn, so I leave open mana for an emergency brainstorm should he go for it and name FoW.
Bryant just plays a second land and plays therapy. I don't hide FoW it because I figured he'd rather name a card he knew I had, besides hiding FoW and then dying is pretty stupid. This way even if he named FoW I'd still have a shot at finding a FOW with brainstorm. He simply takes a brainstorm though, probably biting his tongue as he sees the FoW I drew.
I draw a land and am dead to Empty next turn due to another cabal therapy. I even had 2 "delver-scries" to find me a cantrip or marsh casualties but it didn't work out.

G3 I keep a weird hand with only 1 land (volcanic) as well as brainstorm, ponder, hydroblast, stifle, spell pierce and an uncastable thoughtseize.
Figuring I'd brainstorm EOT I passed the turn, not pondering in fear of a t1 ETW.
Bryant plays a fetch, I brainstorm eot and he cracks in response, glad to get a basic swamp. Sadly my brainstorm isn't any good in that it doesn't have any lands, only daze, a nother stifle and angler. I take the daze and stifle, but don't ponder. I figured that my opponent would need a bunch of discard to get through this so I could wait a turn to maximize my chances of hitting a land with ponder because if I don't I have my shields down and the game is likely lost.
Fortunately Bryant doesn't have a second land either and passes, my ponder next turn shows a misty (haleluja!), marsh casualties and brainstorm. I get the fetch, keeping the casualties on top in case my opponent goes for an empty. Sadly he plays Dark Ritual next turn and I feel oblieged to spell pierce it, forcing me to fetch away my answer to empty.
Somewhere in the early game I had to shuffle away my thoughtseize, so all that was left as I played my Angler was daze, hydroblast and 2 stifle.
I draw double delver and put my opponent down to 8 as he duresses my hydroblast and wishes for infernal tutor.
His 4 land and artifact mana render my daze useless as he proceeds to go for an ad nauseam at 8 life, revealing a bunch of rituals, petals and brainstorms. He eventually brainstorms into therapy and empty for 28 goblins and passes the turn on 2 life against 2 unflipped delver.
Because magic is all about skill I blindflip my 2 delvers with a brainstorm and win the game.

Round 5 against funkydude787 (UR Delver):
UR Delver is probably one of the harder matchups for traditional Grixis: They have 8 bolts and PoP and are just tuned to beat other delver decks. Our only trump is Gurmag Angler which proves to be quite a headache for them.

G1 otd I force a swiftspear because I have no removal in hand, but get dazed. I play a deathrite and defend from his bolt by a daze of my own, but my opponent forces and puts me to 14. With usea out and brainstorm, angler, wasteland and daze in hand I pass the turn and am able to daze a stormchaser mage, brainstorm for a bolt and kill his swiftspear before he bolts me to 9 on his turn with chain lightning. I play an angler and a delver and quickly turn the tides.
I land another delver and a drs, thankfully my opponent is blanking out and bolts my drs instead of me at 6 life after his stormchaser attack. I instinctively play my misty out to be able to "scry" with my delvers, figuring a PoP would kill us both since my opp was at 4 life with 2 Volcs out and in topdeck mode. I didn't realize though that by being at 6 life (5 after stormchaser attacks) I left him the out to a draw with PoP.
Long story short he drew it the next turn and we finished an undecided g1.

Out: 4 Stifle
In: 2 Pyroblast, 1 Hydroblast, 1 Diabolic Edict
Stifle is cute, but not necessary against this deck. All I really want to do is kill all their stuff and land an Angler or TNN.
I do so the next 2 games and win each of them in quick succession.

I really like this deck and think it's a great take on the metagame.
The thoughtseizes in the sideboard are great against combo. Flusterstorms just play right into counter-hate like Xantid Swarm, Defense Grid, discard spells, hay-makers like Blood Moon and Mentor etc.
Hydroblast is fantastic in some matchups, especially some hard ones like moon-stompy, UR Delver, Burn etc.
The lack of probes and young tempo-negative-mancer really helps in the tempo matchups.
My favorite sideboard card is still Marsh Casualties which I can play due to the heavier black splash. This deck is just nuts and provides an out to Empty, resolved TNN and active Mom which Grixis traditionally just doesn't have at 2 mana.
Everyone knows how good Spell Pierce is, but Spell Snare really continues to impress me as it provides an answer to many 2-for-1s Grixis can struggle with, namely Strix, Snapcaster, Hymn, Stoneforge, Jitte and more. Moreover the Spell Snares/Pierces are great against all the cards people bring in to kill TNN and Angler, most of which cost 2-3 mana.
I can't say I missed the threats, TNN and Angler are very hard to deal with and require different answers which not every deck has.

Played in a league yesterday. Whereas in the league above I faced delver and combo, midrange was the name of the program that day. I lost to (soothsaying) Miracles by making 2 misplays while keeping a removal-heavy hand g1 and won against UWR Stoneblade, Grixis Pyromancer (3 Angler build), Noble Duke and 4c-control. My 1-mana counterspells really pulled their weight in those matches, stifle denied the mana while snare and pierce prevented the important 2-for-1s from happening.

Agrippa,

Appreciate the detail and your take on an aggressively tempo oriented build. I play something very similar in BUG colors (posts in BURg tempo recently). Almost the exact same threats and stack interaction (+1 Leovold / -1 Snare) and obviously a different removal suite (Push/dismember/decay).

I moved to this build to combat the 4c Pile decks and Eldrazi and I’ve had good results lately.

Keep us up to date on your progress.

Any maindeck construction tips for a meta littered with G/W, DnT, Lands, and Czech Pile?
For example how the following cards line up against this grindy meta:

• Young Pyro
• Stifle vs. Cabal (or none mainboard)
• Kolaghan's command (main/board)
• Spell pieres and Spell Snares?

What does G/W stand for? Your meta seems fair, I'd definitely recommend 2 TNN.
As for stifle vs. therapy: Stifle is like waaaaay better against 4c-control and lands, but is barely worth it against D&T. Therapy is quite embarassing against lands though as well as against 4c-control unlike you get lucky draws. Knowing what to name because of Stoneforge and Recruiter is awesome though.

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

What does G/W stand for? Your meta seems fair, I'd definitely recommend 2 TNN.
As for stifle vs. therapy: Stifle is like waaaaay better against 4c-control and lands, but is barely worth it against D&T. Therapy is quite embarassing against lands though as well as against 4c-control unlike you get lucky draws. Knowing what to name because of Stoneforge and Recruiter is awesome though.

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Hey thanks for the reply.
I meant G/W to stand for Maverick/midrange decks that don't play blue.

Do you think there is an argument to play therapy-less/stifle-less build in this fair meta?

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Originally Posted by scapiander

Hey thanks for the reply.
I meant G/W to stand for Maverick/midrange decks that don't play blue.

Do you think there is an argument to play therapy-less/stifle-less build in this fair meta?

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Yes, completely.

I would play Push and KCommand main instead and have Therapy in the SB for combo decks. Favor a high threat count with TNN and Gurmag main and pack additional KCommand/Grudge in your SB. A Jitte SB will go a long way too.

Top 4'Ed Eternal weekend, Bob's list is the truth

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Originally Posted by AdventuresWithTarmo

Top 4'Ed Eternal weekend, Bob's list is the truth

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Neat!