[Deck] Suicide Black

@ Damnosus

18 Swamp, if you're playing 4 Dark Ritual and running the Confidant build (lots of 1-2cc spells, 4-8 3cc spells), is fine. I've never come across 18 Swamp being too low. I think Tacosnape, when he played Sui Black, also came to the conclusion that 18 Swamp + 4 Dark Ritual is sufficient for Confidant Sui.

EDIT: For reference

18 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Dark Confidant

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smother
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
3 Pithing Needle

Pretty standard Confidant Sui. I'd like my chances versus Team America with this list; Stifle, Wasteland, Snuff Out are all dead (I suppose Stifle can be pitched to FoW, but whatever), our disruption suite is comparable, we both run legit clocks (theirs being largely dependant on the yard though), Confidant vs. their dig is somewhat comparable, and Dark Ritual can help against their Sinkholes.

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Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin

well actually my build does run fetch lands (to thin the deck)

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Don't.

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

Don't.

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I've seen some tempo-based Tombstalker Sui builds (think Eva Green shell, minus the Seals and Goyfs) using fetches for Stalker food. Although I do not use fetches in any mono-colored deck, for decks running Stalker, I can see why it might be warranted.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I've seen some tempo-based Tombstalker Sui builds (think Eva Green shell, minus the Seals and Goyfs) using fetches for Stalker food. Although I do not use fetches in any mono-colored deck, for decks running Stalker, I can see why it might be warranted.

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yeah thats the other reason I run fetches, I run 4x Stalker....

I've always found Fetchies are excellent in any deck, even a mono colored deck. I like how it thins the deck. I can see why in a Stifle-heavy environment they might not be played as much if they're unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I've seen some tempo-based Tombstalker Sui builds (think Eva Green shell, minus the Seals and Goyfs) using fetches for Stalker food. Although I do not use fetches in any mono-colored deck, for decks running Stalker, I can see why it might be warranted.

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Sorry Arsenal, I know you've seen this before:

4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 phyrexian negator
4 tombstalker

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 snuff out
3 vendetta
2 umezawa's jitte

4 wasteland
4 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
10 swamp

The fetches are only to support tombstalker, plus it's suicide black so I don't like winning with more than five life :wink:

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Originally Posted by Blackened

I've always found Fetchies are excellent in any deck, even a mono colored deck. I like how it thins the deck. I can see why in a Stifle-heavy environment they might not be played as much if they're unnecessary.

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Upon further review...

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

Don't.

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Originally Posted by Blackened

I've always found Fetchies are excellent in any deck, even a mono colored deck. I like how it thins the deck. I can see why in a Stifle-heavy environment they might not be played as much if they're unnecessary.

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The thinning effect doesn't noticeably affect your draws in any deck, but especially in a deck as fast as this.

I just never really looked at it so mathematically. I guess to the untrained eye it seems as though they're thinning your deck.

even though the fetches don't noticeably thin your deck, they do provide necessary speed to getting the Tombstalker out much earlier. Which is why I would definitely suggest running them in any deck that utilizes Tombstalker as a win condition.

@blackened
Well, the thing is you're not really wrong, as in you're obviously getting land out of the deck, and it probably does matter if you're playing a slower control deck. But with anything not planning to see turn 15, it's not really relevant.

I understand and do see where you're coming from. This deck is very speedy. I love this build and all the branches like Red Death and Eva Green. They're very fun to play.

the other advantage I have found of fetch lands is that they allow you to shuffle your deck, so that if you are getting no land draws, but you have a fetch land, you can shuffle your deck in hopes of getting both a new land from the fetch, and additional land draws. So its win win.

I never thought of "hope" as "win" in any situation. Chance is a big part of this game and I don't like finding myself relying on it.

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Originally Posted by Blackened

I never thought of "hope" as "win" in any situation. Chance is a big part of this game and I don't like finding myself relying on it.

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um... you almost always have to rely on chance in this game... if you don't like relying on chance, then perhaps Magic isn't the game for you.... perhaps you should be playing Chess.

In any case, the word "hope" and "win win" in my last post were used more or less metaphorically.

Relying on chance? You almost never have to rely on chance if you build and shuffle your deck properly. I didn't say chance doesn't partake in EVERY draw you make in the game, but things can be helped greatly with good deckbuilding and shuffling. I guess I came off the wrong way. I don't like finding myself riding on one draw as opposed to a select amount of potential draws, where if your deck is built properly you would have many of them.

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Originally Posted by Blackened

Relying on chance? You almost never have to rely on chance if you build and shuffle your deck properly. I didn't say chance doesn't partake in EVERY draw you make in the game, but things can be helped greatly with good deckbuilding and shuffling. I guess I came off the wrong way. I don't like finding myself riding on one draw as opposed to a select amount of potential draws, where if your deck is built properly you would have many of them.

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um... if your not relying on even a slight amount of chance when you shuffle your deck... then you are cheating via stacking your deck... the whole point of shuffling your deck is to randomize it and thus create a factor of chance in the process of your next draw....

Okay I didn't elaborate on my difference between relying and knowing well enough apparently. I understand that chance exists in the game of Magic, I'm simply saying that relying on a top deck isn't a good thing and tells you your deck needs help. That's all I'm trying to get across.

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Originally Posted by Blackened

Okay I didn't elaborate on my difference between relying and knowing well enough apparently. I understand that chance exists in the game of Magic, I'm simply saying that relying on a top deck isn't a good thing and tells you your deck needs help. That's all I'm trying to get across.

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unfortunately going into top-deck mode, often is one of the biggest and most important issues that any deck faces in major tournaments. Especially suicide decks that DO NOT feature Bob or Arena, such as my Suicide Deck.

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the other advantage I have found of fetch lands is that they allow you to shuffle your deck, so that if you are getting no land draws, but you have a fetch land, you can shuffle your deck in hopes of getting both a new land from the fetch, and additional land draws. So its win win.

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If you a drawing from a "land pocket" you still will have no idea what card you are drawing. The only difference from; shuffling and drawing a card, and not shuffling and drawing a card, in the short term is all in your head.

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um... if your not relying on even a slight amount of chance when you shuffle your deck... then you are cheating via stacking your deck... the whole point of shuffling your deck is to randomize it and thus create a factor of chance in the process of your next draw....

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This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I play poker and I still don't rely on chance while playing. Both in Magic and Poker your role is to make the best possible decisions you can in each situation you are presented with and the fewest mistakes. "Luck" has nothing to do with it. I do not relying on ANY chance, I do not even think about it. The most I ever do is give myself the most opportunities to get "lucky" by for example playing the game out even though I would have to assume my next three draws must be specific cards and if they're not I would lose.

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unfortunately going into top-deck mode, often is one of the biggest and most important issues that any deck faces in major tournaments.

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Uh... no. You are terribly wrong. If your in top deck mode then obviously you have played all your cards and if you still are not winning then maybe you have a bad match-up or made mistakes. Most of the type of your decks at the point that they would be in "top deck mode" where they are losing and need to draw something to win. You are going to lose anyways. Even if you end up winning it has nothing to do with relying on your top-decks.

@ DalkonCledwin

Anyways this thread is getting of topic and if you would like to continue this conversation you should probably make a specific thread on it.