[DTB] Vial Goblins

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As far as Tinkerer vs Tin dont forget not only are you waiting to untap but he needs the additional investment of R to blow something up. While one more mana doesnt seem like a big deal, if thats your turn three you arent casting Warchief anymore

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I'm sure the fact that Hooligan needs a green source to be activated balances out the fact that you need to pay a red for Tinkerer in certain situations. I again, I'm not disagreeing that Hooligan is better than Tinkerer in the mirror. I'm simply stating that Hooligan isn't that much better.

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If your opponent proceeds to Wasteland your Volcanic, what are you gonna do, use the Stifle up on the Wasteland?

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I sure would. It puts me up a land drop and my opponent down a land drop. I'm not completely positive, but isn't controlling more lands an extremely strong position in the mirror?

It's worth noting that Blue also offers Echoing Truth, which will either bounce a shutdown enchantment like Moat/Humility/Confinement/whatever long enough to swing through, bounce a Jitte for tempo or a chance to Tinkerer the thing, or bounce a Ringleader for more card advantage. No help on Plague, though.

I will say this. I don't think relying on mana disruption or relying on decks not to play it is an acceptable solution to Engineered Plague. Two of the most common decks packing it are Red Death and Survival, and those most definitely see play. Survival can drop Birds and Bears, sit on Fetchlands, and play basics until the time comes to drop the black. Red Death can go Ritual, Plague, or drop basic lands while taking a hit or two. Maybe it's a different story when Stifling the fetchland is an option, but in that case you're hoping they wait to crack it until after you dropped Lackey or Vial, which is risky.

Goblins needs a way to handle Plague. It doesn't have to be necessarily as ridiculously committed as what I run (Ray of Revelation if I'm RGW, Tranquil Domain if I'm RG, Scour or Leave No Trace if I'm RW. I see a LOT of Plague.) but you need something. Even if it's a lesser option like King or Patron.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I'm simply stating that Hooligan isn't that much better.

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Yes he is.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I sure would. It puts me up a land drop and my opponent down a land drop. I'm not completely positive, but isn't controlling more lands an extremely strong position in the mirror??

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Thats a fine point but mine is that your keeping that red/blue mana open just to wait for a chance to Stifle.. You'll be short changing yourself a mana to cast very key spells to stay aggro. Your aggro control demeanor shows through your deck building hanni, which is just fine. But I think taking away too much aggro, especially that one mana, will switch over the role too much. Id me more than glad to hear your results with the Stifles though.

E Truth does help vs plague on a smaller scale though. Bouncing multiple plagues sets you up for a kill swing if you can actually pull it off and makes Patron slightly better. Truth also helps against White based decks by bouncing knight once they finally get the jitte on it. Green is still the better choice so far, but we should think of more interesting ideas.

I use Aura Fracture for Plagues.

For those who don't remember it.

2W Enchantment - Sacrifice a land: destroy target enchantment.

It's reusable and constitutes as many disenchants as you have land. Comes down about the same time as a non-ritualed Plague also.

wow cool gob card. Only flaw with it, is that LD will be a pain for you if you dont have vial. Deadguy can vindicate it before dropping plague too. No one has mentioned the card though yet.. pretty cool.

if you are gonna use something other than disenchant, I like leave no trace. It's brutal against multiple prisons, multiple plagues, etc.

I like Serenity. It kills Vials, true, but it also rapes a dozen artifact.decs and enchantress (provided that they don't have a disenchant-effect handy) in addition to killing multiple plagues/humility/rift/moat/etc. Yea, it has a drawback of being vulnerable to disenchants, but against you, they usually target vials anyways if they're present in the first place.

Just as a quick question. Why exactly is Krosan Grip viewed so much more strongly than Disenchant in the deck. Split Second seems relevant against decks with either countermagic or possibly active Jitte counters.

It seems that the main goal for Krosan Grip is to deal with Engineered Plague. The only decks packing countermagic and Engineered Plague is UWb Fish, which isn't a metagame concern. Survival and B/r Sui don't have any more responses to a Disenchant targeting Plague than Krosan Grip does. The same applies to decks packing Humility, Moat, etc etc.

I realize the main reason the green is splashed is for Tin Street. Is Tin Street really worth splashing a color that gives you no sideboard options vs what I would think are problematic matchups? I realize it's being splashed to deal with hate. I don't think white is any less effective at dealing with hate though. However, white seems like it would give you sideboard options vs potentially problematic matchups.

What problematic matchups? Well, it seems like combo is a hard matchup for you guys. Orim's Chant is nasty against IGGy/TES and it buys you a full turn against Solidarity. I think it is much stronger than Pyrostatic Pillar, since Pillar requires you to invest 2 mana early and it can be bounced. Aside from combo, what matchups pose a threat to Goblins? Rather, what matchups pose a threat to Goblins that green can answer and white can't?

I also am not suggesting R/w Goblins with StP main. StP may be a strong sideboard option but I don't think it's necessary maindeck. Obviously, you want some number of Tinkerer's main. Chalice in the board, Orim's Chant in the board, Disenchant/Leave no Trace/Serenity in the board, etc etc.

However, I'm sure I'm not changing anyones mind about the green splash whatsoever. I guess Hooligan is just that damn busted.

The only white card even remotely good enough to switch over for is Armageddon. Chant makes it so you have to leave mana open every turn. Grip is much better than disenchant against: Hannifish (jitte and counter magic), Fairy Stompy, survival of the fittest, death and taxes (vial, sensei's top, and some builds run jitte), can make a big impact on any of those games. I don't think swords is good even in the sideboard. Aggro matchups are usually very good, and silver knight is only a problem if they can keep their equipment on it.

This is the list I used in Utrecht and with which I won the tournament:

4 mountains
2 taiga
1 badlands
4 r/g fetch
3 r/b fetch
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port

4 goblin lackey
4 mogg fanatic
4 aether vial
4 goblin piledriver
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringleader
1 goblin king
1 goblin tinkerer
2 goblin sharpshooter
2 siege-gang commander
4 gempalm incinerator


Sideboard:

4 Chalice of the void
2 Krosan grip
2 tranquil domain
3 engineered explosives
1 goblin sharpshooter
3 extirpate


Altough I don't consider this the ultimate list I used this list because I tought it would be best in the dutch metagame. The biggest weakness I think is post sideboard goblins because I can only board an extra sharpshooter.
I also tried to make it as difficult as possible to shut down my deck with meddling mages which explains the split between tranquil domain and grip. Explosives are in the deck to provide a solution for pro red creatures.
Extirpate is an answer to terrageddon and combo.
I have had no difficulty finding my colored lands but for 1 single game.

I havent seen anyone talk about sideboarding strategies so I thought I would post my own and see how people disagreed so I could learn how to sideboard better.
Some notes on my list
* I run 3x MD Pyrokinesis
* I run 3 Mogg Fanatics, and 3 Gempalms
* I run 1 MD Sharpshooter
Othat than that everything is pretty standard Rg Goblin fare.

Mirror:
-2 Goblin Piledriver
+2 Tin Street Hooligan

Thresh
-3 Mogg Fanatic -3 Pyrokinesis -1 Goblin Piledriver
+4 Chalice of the Void +2 Tormod's Crypt +1 Tin Street

Non Iggy Combo //Pryo may want to stay in against TES
-3 Gemplam -3 Pyrokinesis -1 Goblin Sharpshooter -1 Mogg Fanatic
+4 Pyro Pillar +4 Chalice of the Void

Angel Stompy variants/Zoo/Other beatdown decks //Chalice comes in against beatdown decks with a high concentration of 1cc and 2cc spells
-2 Piledriver
+2 Tin Street

Survival
-3 Piledriver
+3 Krosan Grip

Random B/X Control
-1 Goblin Sharpshooter -2 Mogg Fanatic
+3 Krosan Grip

I believe the sideboard discussion is the only relevant one, b/c most of the main deck with goblins is pretty much the same give or take a few cards. I would like to ask the form a few questions I do have.

Is the R/G Goblins build the accepted best Goblins deck? Is it worth considering the white splash anymore at this point? How important is it to play Rishadan Port these days? I've cut this card to a 2 of in my mana base to run more red sources as its usually more important to consistently have red mana then it is to have port in your opening hand.

Tell me what you think?

When I first started playing Goblins I didn't run Rishadan Ports and was under the mindset that chaining Matrons and Ringleaders was better than the ability to tap lands. After playing Goblins more in testing and tournament settings I've seen just how amazing Rishadan Port is and I could now never imagine running a list without 4. Some games when you get Vial and Port going you can just play Stax against people Wastelanding and Porting all over the place while some generic men lay the beats.

Also if your running the commonly accepted 23 lands I don't think that Ports should get in the way of your ability to hit RR very often. You could always cut a few fetch lands so that your not thinning the deck and will draw more lands(very small effect).

As for Rg vs. Rw it comes down to what kind of metagame you are expecting but for what I've seen out of Legacy as a whole I think that Rg is the way to go. The only card thats awesome from Rw goblins is Armageddon so if your in a meta full of Rifter, Mono-White Control, and other mana hungry control decks Geddon is a solid choice. It seems like those decks aren't very popular right now so killing Jitte, SoFI, Vial, and other random artifacts with Tin Street seems better. I ran Rw for a long time but for the GP and other tournaments I'm gonna be running Rg.

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Originally Posted by Gekoratel

Some games when you get Vial and Port going you can just play Stax against people Wastelanding and Porting all over the place while some generic men lay the beats.

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I think this is especially true. I had games when I was running 4 ports where I didn't have an explosive start, but my hand was very good to play a control role. Thats the great thing about this deck, it can come out of the gates very fast and win or it can play a control role and win the long game. I've played with this deck quite a bit, so I'm just trying to tweak the deck at this point.

The one thing that I haven't done with goblins is play it in big events, even though I am very good with the deck. Last event I played with it was at GP: Philly when I went 5-3 and missed day 2 by one round going in with no byes. The more I play with this deck in bigger events the more impressed I will become with the decks power and consistency.

The deck needs 4 ports, 4 incinerators, and 4 fanatics. 23 Land is best. 3 MD pyrokinesis isn't very good unless your meta is almost all aggro, that won't be the case at GP Columbus.

I think 24 lands is going to win you more mirrors than the 4th Gempalm, so I play it thusly. Just remember, people, mirror comes down to mana advantage almost always, so the player with more lands is going to win. Same applies to MUs where your opponent can shut down Lackeys and Vials; all the card advantage in the world can't save you if you can't cast 'em. I still don't seem to run out of cards often with 24 lands and 3 Gempalms, so I'm rather satisfied, especially since I still maintain the critical 4 Fanatics to answer Lackey with..

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The deck needs 4 ports, 4 incinerators, and 4 fanatics. 23 Land is best. 3 MD pyrokinesis isn't very good unless your meta is almost all aggro, that won't be the case at GP Columbus.

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I don't see how the 4th Incinerator or 4th Fanatic are mandatory, there are very few matchups where Fanatic truly shines and he's so much worse than all of your other 1 drops that a lot of the time he just sits in your hand until you've already played all of your better goblins. I think the 4th Gempalm is just a matter of preference, it is a very strong card and I would certainly run it over jank like Skirk Prospector, Kiki-Jiki, Goblin Pyromancer etc. It's not that necessary though if you are running MD Pyrokinesis.

I think you are selling Pyrokinesis pretty short even if you arent expecting the GP to be heavily Aggro which I'm pretty sure it will be. In nearly every matchup save Combo you can find a use for Pyrokinesis. At the GP I'm expecting roughly:
25% Goblins
20% Extended Ports(Affinity, BDW etc.)
20% Jank
15% Thresh
10% Combo
10% Control (Landstill, Tog, Wx)

So personally I think MD Pyro is going to be very strong at the GP and recommend it to Goblin players but I'll be happy if people don't run it because then the mirror will be easier for me. Also running Pryo MD frees up 3-4 slots in the sideboard so your post-board matchups improve against a wider variety of the field.

Also does anyone have any comments on the sbing I laid out a few posts ago.

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Originally Posted by dahcmai

I use Aura Fracture for Plagues.

For those who don't remember it.

2W Enchantment - Sacrifice a land: destroy target enchantment.

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...Zomg Frog. That's pretty good. I'mma go rustle me up some of them.

This is my current sideboard plan for many of the popular decks that players have been playing in my area. I'm currently running 22 lands with 4 mogg fanatics and 1 goblin tinkerer main deck. Everything else is pretty normal goblin build with 1 sharpshooter.

First, here is the current sideboard that I've been using.


1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin King
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Disenchant
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Chalice of the Void


Threshold (white/red splash)

+1 Goblin King (Red Gro)
+1 Goblin Tinkerer
+2 Tormod's Cypt
+4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Pyrokinesis
-4 Mogg Fanatic
-1 Goblin Piledriver

Iggy Pop/TES/Solidarity

+4 Pyrostatic Pillar
+4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Gemplam
-3 Pyrokinesis
-2 Mogg Fanatic


Survival

+3 Disenchant
+1 Goblin King
-1 Goblin Tinkerer
-1 Mogg Fanatic
-2 Goblin Piledriver

Vial Affinity

+1 Goblin King
+1 Goblin Tinkerer
-1 Mogg Fanatic
-1 Goblin Piledriver

Mirror

+1 Goblin Tinkere
-1 Mogg Fanatic

Those are the major matchups that I currently worry about. When I get some more experience playing other matchups that seem relevant I will post those. Let me know what you think about my sideboard strategies.