[Deck] Death and Taxes

I just want to point out two things. First you do not gain storm count from Vengevine returning to play from the graveyard. Just from the creatures being cast to help get him onto the field (i.e. the basking rootwalla's). Thus even if they bring back 4x Vengevine you still only have a storm count of 2x for that turn in all likelyhood.

Second, I don't think a Storm based removal is all that optimal for dealing with Vengevine Survival for two reasons. First is the fact that Vengevine Survival can do some tricks in response to the first time you cast it on them. Instead of attacking just with the vengevines they can attack all in with everything they have, thus protecting their vengevines. Second they can start sideboarding Stifles to prevent the storm count from mattering all that much. Either of these scenerio's can cause a problem for wing shards.

The other reason is because 1WW mana is a bit expensive even for the mono-white version. The reason I say this is because the mono-white version usually runs 7 to 8 colorless lands and 14 or so colored lands. 1WW that cannot be vialed in, is asking for trouble when it comes to producing that mana, especially if you are trying to do it on your opponents turn at instant speed.

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Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin

I just want to point out two things. First you do not gain storm count from Vengevine returning to play from the graveyard. Just from the creatures being cast to help get him onto the field (i.e. the basking rootwalla's). Thus even if they bring back 4x Vengevine you still only have a storm count of 2x for that turn in all likelyhood.

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I believe everybody gets that vines do not trigger storm, but when your opponent plays 2 creatures to bring back Vengevines, your Shards will kill 3 creatures. That is something.

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Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin

Second, I don't think a Storm based removal is all that optimal for dealing with Vengevine Survival for two reasons. First is the fact that Vengevine Survival can do some tricks in response to the first time you cast it on them. Instead of attacking just with the vengevines they can attack all in with everything they have, thus protecting their vengevines.

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This is assuming, that you will cast Wing Shards at the totally wrong time. Therefore this reasoning is false. If you go to declare blockers step before playing Wing Shards, they cannot choose new attackers anymore.

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Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin

Second they can start sideboarding Stifles to prevent the storm count from mattering all that much. Either of these scenerio's can cause a problem for wing shards.

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D&T is a deck against which Stifle actually is really useful, as you have number of targets from Mangara and Karakas to Stoneforge Mystic, equipment and Wasteland. I wouldn't count on UG madness siding them out in the first place. Since you have many targets, your most expensive stiflable trick, Shards, will probably resolve unharrassed.

To me this issue is reduced to:

1- Wing Shards can, at max, kill (and not EXILE) the Vengevines. The savvy Survivine player will manage to bring them back.
2- D&T, in any of its incarnations (monoW or Gsplash) has better tools do dismantle the Survivine deck --> In order of importance: destroy Survival (Qasali Pridemage, Mangara, Oblivion Ring), break the Survival chains (Ethersworn Canonist, Leonin Arbiter, Pithing Needle), exile their VV (StP, Mangara, Oblivion Ring).

I honestly don't see what's the big deal with that deck...People are scared of it just because it is widely played and do well at tournaments? IMO, this is a good matchup for us. If Dreadstil was winning as much as Survivine, would we be scared of it? I doubt it. We slaughter them.

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Originally Posted by Hopo

I believe everybody gets that vines do not trigger storm, but when your opponent plays 2 creatures to bring back Vengevines, your Shards will kill 3 creatures. That is something.

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That is assuming that they don't attack with 3 other creatures aside from the Vengevines...

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This is assuming, that you will cast Wing Shards at the totally wrong time. Therefore this reasoning is false. If you go to declare blockers step before playing Wing Shards, they cannot choose new attackers anymore.

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Technically, as soon as you receive priority (even if it is within the Declare Attackers step) they have lost the opportunity to declare different attackers.

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D&T is a deck against which Stifle actually is really useful, as you have number of targets from Mangara and Karakas to Stoneforge Mystic, equipment and Wasteland. I wouldn't count on UG madness siding them out in the first place. Since you have many targets, your most expensive stiflable trick, Shards, will probably resolve unharrassed.

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That depends on how well informed the Vengevine Survival Player happens to be about your deck...

All told I have to agree with Lorgalis' analysis of the Vengevine Survival match up, Wing Shards is NOT needed for that match up as we have a veritable assortment of much better tools at this decks disposal in all of its incarnations to battle the survival decks.

I have not had any real problems with Survival decks of any sort, including this one. But if the white versions with Pridemage becomes the norm, the deck will likely become a problem. That card puts a hurting on this deck. The card itself is merely a nuisance, but the fast decks that have it are able to make it do a lot.

Wing Shards against fast decks with painless recursion seems pretty bad. My own experience with it is against other decks but if you go back to the discussions in May, June, and July of this thread you will find that most of its proponents were bemoaning the promise of the card never quite working out. I am one of them. It is just too slow and unreliable.

Still, we should be prepared for such a popular deck with a solid game plan and boarding scheme. G/W seems to have its primary tool, Qasali Pridemage, shine in this matchup. If you G/W guys are also packing the E.Tutor package, I bet this matchup can be pretty good for you. For the rest of us, with Oblivion Rings becoming less popular, we are going to have to get more creative. My own primary pick is a single Pithing needle. You can fetch it postboard. I will also be keeping an Oblivion Ring, Runed Halo, a Canonist, and my anti-graveyard suite for now. But I have to tell you that it feels a bit thin even with the deck's typical assortment of defense. The biggest problem I have is with the ineffectiveness of Flickerwisp here. Most artifacts and enchantments can be negated to such a large degree by Flickerwisp that we have come to depend on it. Survival needs to be dealt with properly. All of the tools we have for it are temporary. And an opposing Pridemage ripped off the top of the opponent's deck is probably all he needs to undo any of them. or a hit with a Trygon Predator. It just feels clunky. Unless the matchup really is as good as Lorgalis says, perhaps we need something like Wispmare or even Arbiters.

So everyone is agreed them? Vengevine Survival is a good matchup, lets change to topic to something we actually have trouble with.

EDIT: I have actually been saving my Wisps to blink the card they target with Pridemage. It has been effective so far for me.

I'm just saying that UG Survivine is not a problem, at least for the GW version. I haven't played against GW Survival, but since I'm not relying much on Pithing Needle, I don't think that matchup will be bad neither.

However, having you Vial blown by an opposing Pridemage is always annoying.

Question: it seems that everybody assumes that the deck has a good matchup against goblins. However, I find myself struggling against them most of the times...if they get a good start, they're pretty unstoppable unles I get a crazy start myself (like Mom, StP and 3-4 turn Mangara combo online). And I play Goyf, which is golden in the matchup. Any help?

(and don't tell me to get rid of Lackey because I already know that...;))

If Goblins are a force to be reckoned with in your meta, ruin their day by running Burrenton Forge-Tender, Silver Knight and/or Tivadar of Thorn. The latter is Mangara on crack and steroids against them, it's really funny (if you're not the poor sob playing Goblins!).

I haven't tried the matchup, but Jötun Grunt would seem to be the saving thing in that matchup. Canonist and Arbiter could also put a hurting on them.

@Colo: Yes, Tivadar is one of the reasons I'm trying the W-Tutor toolbox in my GW version...So far, testing says that if I stick it in play turn 3, the goblins can't win. It's funny to see the goblin player's reaction; no one sees that coming! I wish that Wizards prints something similar against Merfolk in Green...Merfolk is 1/4 of my metagame, so a silver bullet to guaranteedly crush them would be nice.

They should print a Tivadar for every tribe. Of course they wouldn't all be in white but still it would really add a new element to sideboarding and promote the creatures matter theme they've been going for. But I'm off track here, continue the discussion.

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Originally Posted by android

They should print a Tivadar for every tribe. Of course they wouldn't all be in white but still it would really add a new element to sideboarding and promote the creatures matter theme they've been going for. But I'm off track here, continue the discussion.

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Halo Hunter? lol

Somewhat awkward question.
My Karakases (or is Karakasi? Or just Karaki?) were stolen.
Yes, really. Stolen.
Anyway, the tournament is this Saturday and D&T is pretty much the only deck I have a good amount of experience playing; in fact the only other deck I have is burn, which I would like to avoid bringing if possible. Anyway, the question: Since I don't have any Karaki at this point, is Mangara worth running (at the very least in the same numbers)? Here's the list I plan on bringing:

//Mana
12x Plains
3x Wasteland
4x Rishadan port
2x Flagstones of Trokair

//Creatures
4x Mother of Runes
3x Kor Duelist
3x Serra Avenger
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Leonin Arbiter
3x Jötun Grunt
4x Flickerwisp
2x Mangara of Corondor

//Other Stuff
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Oblivon Ring
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Body and Mind


I would really like to make it work despite my lacking of the most powerful card in the deck, do you guys have any ideas? I'm kind of at a loss... :(

Well, it seems that the deck is still reasonable. Having 4 Flickerwisps for your 2 Magaras seems like a good ratio. Also, in this deck, Magara > Oblivion ring most of the time. But depending on your meta (ie: if you're going to play against decks where you need a late-game plan), maybe you could just skip your Mangaras and add 1 Avenger and...1 Stoneforge? 1 Duelist?

By the way, how are the Duelists going? Aren't they just a 1/1 for W a lot of the time?

Why are you only running three Avengers? Its just an awesome attacker and defender for the deck.

Lorgalis: Honestly, Duelist works well as a two of for the deck. Its a GREAT card, but running more than two of them feels off for most games.

Ouch, I'm sorry for getting your stuff stolen. Any luck finding out who it was?

Should I run Leonin Arbiters SB with Canonists MD or just have the tutor toolbox SB with Canonists MD.?

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Originally Posted by LegacyDan

Why are you only running three Avengers? Its just an awesome attacker and defender for the deck.

Lorgalis: Honestly, Duelist works well as a two of for the deck. Its a GREAT card, but running more than two of them feels off for most games.

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I split the grunts and the avengers 3/3 because SoBaM "feeds" the grunts. If I get an early grunt and an early mystic I usually fetch a SoBaM because it allows my grunt to live for essentially the entire game (unless they remove it), and who doesn't like a bunch of wolves? And if they constantly block my grunt, well, he's a 6/6, that usually means I'm killing a bunch of creatures anyway. IMO, as long as you're running SoBaM, Jotun Grunt is better than Serra Avenger.

Oh, trust me, I know all about SoBaMs interactions. However, I am have a 4/4 of Avengers and Grunts and I am almost NEVER sad seeing any of them.

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Originally Posted by LegacyDan

Oh, trust me, I know all about SoBaMs interactions. However, I am have a 4/4 of Avengers and Grunts and I am almost NEVER sad seeing any of them.

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I am still have reservations about 4/4, i'm not sure the deck is have room for a 4/4 split, especially since I am want to leave two kor duelists in there. T1 duelist, t2 mystic, t3 jitte is game for a lot of decks (zoo included). I am have 3/3 avengers and grunts for now.

It's not, because every competitve deck (maybe with the expcetion of those which have already won by turn 3, anyway) runs enough removal for your pesky 1/1 with a chance of double strike never to become relevant. At all.