Im thinking about playing spell pierce in side board because its gods againts teps and blue decks,
What do you think about playing spell pierce in sideboard ?
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Im thinking about playing spell pierce in side board because its gods againts teps and blue decks,
What do you think about playing spell pierce in sideboard ?
Spell Pierce works kinda like a more efficient retroactive duress. Not exactly better but the mana you save first few turns can be spent into assembling the combo kill the following turn, that is if they don't play something relevant.
It worked against my opponent's CotV. Downside if of course you can't peek if they have traps and the game can reach to a point where they can just pay for it. It can't stop a Ethersworn Cannonist and this is where Thoughtseize is better.
Counters are good against greedy opponents, who want to throw their hate out as fast as possible. That's why Daze is good, because people often drop that second turn Canonist. Spell Pierce on the other hand doesn't hit Canonist. It's quite good against opposing counters, but since you play LED to get your mana goin opponents will simply wait till you dropped your hand to counter the stuff after you broke your LED's. That's why I wouldn't go for Spell Pierce.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi
I top4ed yesterday in a little 32-men tourney with my list of Fetchland Tendrils+ Ad Nauseam hybrid. I won against Burn, Life.dec, Survival with Negates, Fows, Vvines and hatebears post-side, then ID the 4th and 5th round. In the quarters I beat Elves with Thorn post-side and 8 Blood Moon MD, then in the semi I lost to URB Dreadstill even if I could have won the 1st game if I had find a fucking acceleration despites BSing, Topping, fetching, BSing and so on.
List, for reference:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [U] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [A] Tundra
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [BRB] Plains (6)
1 [10E] Island (2)
1 [ALA] Swamp (3)
// Spells
1 [TE] Meditate
3 [JGC] Orim's Chant
2 [M10] Silence
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [DDC] Duress
1 [FNM] Tendrils of Agony
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [US] Dark Ritual
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [6E] Doomsday
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [U] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [5E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
As you can see, it's more focused on being an ANT than a DDFT, with Doomsday being the additional tutors ANT now lacks and granting a better Mu and post-side asset against control-heavy decks (CB and Tempo). The list ran smoothly all day, I would just change a bit the sideboard because I think, without Emrakul, 4 cc3 split seconds are required against CB, and therefore also Carpet is.
How good is this list under AdN? I wrote down a very similar list a while ago when looking to replace the Grim Tutors in Ari Lax's list.
Why don't you run Emrakul sideboard?
This list is surely not optimized for Ad Nauseam, but I came to the conclusion AdN is a bomb you can't renounce to in certain situations when you have a Infernal+LED and Chant hand, and your opponent counters the Chant. What can you do here?
1)you can't go for the IGG loop because they have Fow in the graveyard, unless you're so mana high that you are able to pick back Chant, Infernal and LED/ritual.
2) you don't have Top in play, therefore no Doomsday piles.
This happened also in Doomsday ANT, remember that beautiful deck we used to play? I think this is its son.
Here Ad Nauseam allows you to not wait in topdeck mode to find another piece of protection to IGG loop or to find a cantrip for Doomsday. You just go all-in and cast it, and if you have 1 black mana floating you're really likely to win before suiciding. Also, please note you can also stop if you don't want to risk and Chant them then go off on your turn. You play 5 chants. Rarely you will Kicker Orim's due to no Chrome Mox, but it's surely better than if you were playing Thoughtseize.
This has won me SEVERAL games I would have before lost due to having to wait to rebuild a protection-with hand. The more time you give them, the more they will beat you. Ad Nauseam costs 1 slot and wins on the spot. Even without Chrome Moxes.
Little story in testings:
I did this against Bant to Chant him t2, he thought of a bluff, I went off with Infernal and all-in. IGG was missing 1 storm.
I could bluff Chanting the opponent in their upkeep to cast my Ad Nauseam on top off LEDs with SDT.
Little story in tournament:
Yesterday I played against a Life.dec. We were g3. He was on the play. He starts Mom, I fan my 7:
Dark ritual, Cabal ritual, Petal, Land, Ad Nauseam, X, Infernal.
This allowed to go off g1, flip Dark ritual, Dark ritual, and IGG, stop at like 4 lives, and then IGG loop for the win retrieving Dark, Cabal and Infernal. He scooped it up and I saw a Gaddock in hand. I would not have won if that AdN was a DD or IGG.
Ad Nauseam is just the mad bullet that will win you games on spot, and adds another angle to the deck, particularly effective against control-heavy (tempo) decks where Doomsday gets hit by Stifle on Top, or you just have to run before Counterbalance comes down.
It works, trust me. It's not like it was in ANT, but it's still very powerful and you'll find yourself winning with Ad Nauseam several times against those decks.
Post-side you cut it out if you want to slowroll the opponent, or you have to board in Grips and Wipe Aways against CB.
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Emrakul is not needed anymore because of CB having reduced in numbers, and, sincerely, I always found that plan to be pretty situational and risky, because people got used to it after the GP success and came to know this plan; not to mention here Counterbalance is always accompanied by a strong dose of either Bant super-exalted creatures, or Dreadnoughts ft. StifleWaste.
I'm kind more of a pure combo player, Tendrils is more safe and doesn't require to pack 2 horrible cards that do little or nothing on their own. I'd use those 2 slots for the another Grip and another Duress or bounce.
Here's my list. Looking for feedback and comments.. more on the sideboard than anything else. I also have this posted on storm boards. Thanks in advance.
I don't have access to Polluted Deltas at the moment. I only own playsets of Bloodstained Mire, Scalding Tarn and Misty Rainforest. With my manabase, would what I have listed be the 'correct' configuration?
18 Land
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Creature
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
41 Spells
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
3 Daze
3 Doomsday
2 Lotus Petal
1 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Meditate
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
15 Sideboard
4 Dark Confidant
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Echoing Truth
1 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Deathmark
1 Meltdown
Why not cut down the Petal to just 1? 1 is all you really need, and 2 just seems too random.
@Piceli89: You could have just asked for me to make an avatar for you.
I'm not really sure why I ran 2 petals in the first place. I realized it's awkwardness last night while testing.. the only reason I'd ever need it is piles like:Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Meditate
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Tendrils
What do you think about the Dark Confidants in the sideboard?
Sorry, this is just too cool to not use it. But I'll delete it if you mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Alright I am not trying to clog this thread up with decklists because I hate when people repeatedly post their list, but I feel this is necessary. I have been doing some testing and I recently realized how little I like LDV in the deck. The card is sick good when the conditions are right, but if I am staring at a 5-6 cards hand, thats the last thing I want 2 see most of the time. Now when LDV resolves and I have a few accelerants and mana available, I almost always win and it helps me tutor up SB cards and LEDs. But I don't like seeing it all that often, so I started hopping onto the Ponder train and that did wonders. I also cut a Cabal Ritual for a 3rd Ponder and I feel this has made the deck stronger than ever. Here is the list I am currently playing:
4x Top
3x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
4x Petal
4x LED
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
3x Doomsday
3x Thoughtseize
3x Ponder
1x IGG
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Meditate
1x Emrakul
1x Tendrils
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
1x Underground Sea
2x City of Brass
1x Badlands
1x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Shelldock Isle
1x Bayou
SB
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils
1x Thoughtseize
1x EtW
1x Doomsday
1x Deathmark
1x Meltdown
1x Wipe Away
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Chain of Vapor
2x Echoing Truth
3x Swarm
I realized that I have to have the Swarm against Merfolk, otherwise its a near auto-loss. Swarm is also really good in the Reanimator matchup and he has won me quite a few games since it can chump block after a pass the turn pile. The manabase is rock solid and I don't ever have mana problems. I am considering cutting 1x Echoing Truth from the board and putting in Reverent Silence just to make Enchantress a permanent bye. And even though I am not the least bit scared of the white Leyline since goblin tokens and Emrakul just rock it in the face but its always nice to have the option of removing it and winning on the spot rather than passing the turn a few times before winning.
Something I am also greatly considering is Stifle for an Emrakul stack. I absolutely hate protection spells that are only reactive but this is a really funny answer to Karakas and all the cute little tricks people like 2 play while you go the Emrakul route. Now I am not sure if this is even a remotely good idea but has anyone ever tested this? Again, I don't think it will be very good since anything running Karakas you are going to beat anyway with Tendrils but its an option. It would also be an interesting answer against Wasteland in a pass the turn pile but in order to not deck yourself you would have to have access to more mana for a DD to reshuffle or have a Top in play and build a pile like: Shelldock, Stifle, Emrakul, Rit, DD or something like that. Does this seem like something viable or does it just sound worthless and situational?
Alright I am not trying to clog this thread up with decklists because I hate when people repeatedly post their list, but I feel this is necessary. I have been doing some testing and I recently realized how little I like LDV in the deck. The card is sick good when the conditions are right, but if I am staring at a 5-6 cards hand, thats the last thing I want 2 see most of the time. Now when LDV resolves and I have a few accelerants and mana available, I almost always win and it helps me tutor up SB cards and LEDs. But I don't like seeing it all that often, so I started hopping onto the Ponder train and that did wonders. I also cut a Cabal Ritual for a 3rd Ponder and I feel this has made the deck stronger than ever. Here is the list I am currently playing:
4x Top
3x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
4x Petal
4x LED
4x Burning Wish
4x Brainstorm
3x Doomsday
3x Thoughtseize
3x Ponder
1x IGG
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Meditate
1x Emrakul
1x Tendrils
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
1x Underground Sea
2x City of Brass
1x Badlands
1x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Shelldock Isle
1x Bayou
SB
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils
1x Thoughtseize
1x EtW
1x Doomsday
1x Deathmark
1x Meltdown
1x Wipe Away
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Chain of Vapor
2x Echoing Truth
3x Swarm
I realized that I have to have the Swarm against Merfolk, otherwise its a near auto-loss. Swarm is also really good in the Reanimator matchup and he has won me quite a few games since it can chump block after a pass the turn pile. The manabase is rock solid and I don't ever have mana problems. I am considering cutting 1x Echoing Truth from the board and putting in Reverent Silence just to make Enchantress a permanent bye. And even though I am not the least bit scared of the white Leyline since goblin tokens and Emrakul just rock it in the face but its always nice to have the option of removing it and winning on the spot rather than passing the turn a few times before winning.
Something I am also greatly considering is Stifle for an Emrakul stack. I absolutely hate protection spells that are only reactive but this is a really funny answer to Karakas and all the cute little tricks people like 2 play while you go the Emrakul route. Now I am not sure if this is even a remotely good idea but has anyone ever tested this? Again, I don't think it will be very good since anything running Karakas you are going to beat anyway with Tendrils but its an option.
Wouldn't Pithing Needle be better? With Pithing Needle, you don't need two lands in play to activate Shelldock and keep Stifle open. I'd also much rather naturally draw the needle than Stifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
That is almost my exact list (changes with the mana base). I was trying to find room for the 4th Ponder, but it does not look like that is going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
I took the list I posted above to my local tournament and made it to a top 4 split out of about 20-25 people. I will write a short report with comments.
Round 1 - Standard G/B stuff (2-0)
g1: Turn 1 Dark Rit DD go. Pile: Brainstorm, LED, LED, IGG, Tendrils
g2: Turn 3 Meditate pile of: Meditate, Rit, Rit, Petal, Tendrils
Round 2 - R/G Affinity w Chalice in the Main and Trinisphere in the side (2-1)
g1: Mull to 4 ... lose.
g2: He mulls to 4 and loses.
g3: Turn 1 Thoughtseize gets his Trinisphere. He rips Chalice off the top and drops it at 0 and plays turn 4 Trinishpere. I can't draw a land but Heml helps me out. Meltdown clears his board and my hand is this: Meditate, DRit, Petal, CRit, Top and I have 4 lands in play (one is a City and I will lose if I tap it cause I'm at one). I throw out a hail mary Meditate at 1 life and hit a Burning Wish + LED ... he is at 12 life from his lands and Sylvan Library.
Round 3 - B/G Vengvival (0-2)
g1: He rips my hand apart with Thoughtseize and flashbacked Therapies and I die on turn 5 to Vengevines.
g2: I Duress him on turn 1 and see: 2x Thoughtseize, E Witness, Mindbreak Trap, Birds, Survival, and a land .... I lose in short order after he hits both times with a fresh Therapy and recurred Survival.
Round 4 - DDFT (2-0)
g1: We rip eachother's hands up and on turn 4 my hand is: 3x Petal, Meditate, IGG, Burning Wish and 2 lands in play. I play a Petal and pass assuming another Duress is coming. On his turn he Duresses me and I respond w Meditate and draw the nuts and he is forced to take my Wish. On my next turn he gets IGGed out with the help of some freshly drawn threshed CRits :)
g2: He sideboardes wrong since he wished for DD last game and goes for a pass the turn pile on turn 1 ..... DD isn't there and he concedes.
Round 5 - Big Zoo (2-0)
g1: Turn 2 Meditate pile w the stone cold nuts. Pile: Meditate, Petal, DRit, DRit, Tendrils
g2: My turn 1 Thoughtseize sees Teeg AND Null Rod. I take the Null Rod and Teeg hits the board. After some filtering w Top I finally get what I need and on turn 4 fire off this pile w a Top in play: Meditate, Top, Helm, LED, BWish. The main reason I went for this stack is I HAD too. He had a Vial in play w 2 counters on it and I didn't board in Pact since I was sure he had Null Rod. Turns out that playing it safe won me the game. After I Graopshotted him for 10000,0000,0,0,0 damage he told me that he wanted me 2 kill his Teeg so bad and showed me the other in his hand. So had I gone for a turn 3 meditate pile of: Meditate, Pact, Rit, Rit, Tendrils I would have flat out lost the game. This is why I so much appreciate having the option of Helmshot ... while a cute trick, it is ridiculously effective and flat out wins games.
Overall I am very happy with how the deck played, I would not change a thing about the list and I managed to deal with every hate card imaginable. I made a mistake against the Survival player and should not have boarded out the Emrakul plan ... I saw Wasteland in g1 so I took it out. Had I known he had that much hate I would have left it in. But aside from the the deck played super well, I mulled about 4-6 times but I mull a lot more than most people do. I am very satisfied w the list and the way it performed.
In lieu of HelmShot in Game 2 against Zoo, wouldn't you have won as well if you went the Emrakul+Shelldock route?
Isnīt this a veeeery risky play? From "Standard BG Stuff" I would expect Thoughtseize, Duress, Hymn, Wasteland. All of the stuff that would have totally wrecked your plan. Or am I missing something? With this pile you need to have 2 Mana (or Street Wraith of course) AND a second draw spell apart from the Brainstorm in your pile AND one more card in your hand to put it back...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
The second Gaddock wouldnīt have done anything or am I wrong? You could have played everything in your pile except for Tendrils. When youīre playing Pact at the very last moment, Gaddock is gone, youīll have priority again and can cast ToA without him having a chance to respond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Nonetheless, I guess Helm is a great option to think about. I just canīt find any room to add it in my list... but itīs great to see it working out that good for you. Congratulations!
@kicks: I always board out Emrakul against Zoo. Its just a very risky plan and I potentially could have lost the game had I done Emrakul with Teeg in play. I was at 14 life when I cast DD so it took me down to 7, then a hit from Teeg drags me to 5 and I know he had a Bolt + land in hand which drops me to 2 ... he has a 3 outer but still, the other plan was a guarnteed victory.
@DerFern: Yeah, I guess that is right, play Pact last and then Tendrils. Can he respond to Tendrils and Vial the other in to stop Tendrils or has it already been cast so it resolves, or does the first copy of Tendrils happen and Teeg stops the rest? I am not sure the order in how these things work.
Anytime you make the play of DDGO it is risky. Against a standard deck though on turn 1 I am really not to concerned with what he is going 2 do and for that fact, even if he draws Duress you also have to consider he has not idea what I am about to do. This is one of the greatest things DD has going for it, so few people can even play it right and the ones who haven't ever tried really have no idea what to do. When I play this deck there are certain times where I like going balls-out and other times I play conservative. But against standard players with standard decks ... I'm not worried in the least.
It works out like this: you play Pact and if it resolves Gaddock is gone. Then you have priority again, since you are the active player. You cast ToA and at the time you cast it, Storm will trigger (copy this for each spell played before it each turn). Before the storm trigger resolves both of you have priority again. You would do nothing but your opponent can respond with whatever he thinks is cool. He could of course activate his Vial to get Teeg into play. Assume noone wants to do anything again before storm resolves, it will do so. Since storm copies the original spell and does not cast them, Gaddock Teeg wonīt prevent it to create a whole lot of Tendrils...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Regarding the Standard BG Deck. I thought you meant a standard BG-Legacy-Deck (The Rock or whatever) and not a Standard (Type II)-Deck, so yeah... I guess it was right not to be afraid...
Ok I'm a very new doomsday player, so please be gentle. I run pulp fiction's MD with the following changes: - 1 helm, - 1 igg, + 1 ponder + 1 duress. I'm basically playing a "dumbed down" beginner's version of doomsday. I understand all the basic piles and can beat countertop consistently with this deck. This is the only storm combo deck I've played that has a positive MU against blue, thanks guys for working up such a beastly list. Anyway my question is: How important/useful are the additional tech like pass the turn iggy and helm-shot? Correct me if I'm wrong:
Pass the turn iggy- used when there is no cantrip or top in hand.
-IMO this is very risky and you just die to dudes against aggro. Shelldock emrakul does the same thing but is a turn slower. I find that this is only useful if you have to go for it the next turn and cannot sit around for 2 turns waiting for shelldock emrakul. IMO this is incredibly narrow and I prefer a "live card" like ponder/seize.
-To generate extra storm in you dday pile. I usually bypass this by just putting a top in my dday pile and swapping the tops around to generate storm with my extra mana.
Helm-shot-> Against gaddock teeg
This allows you to bypass gaddock by going infinite storm and burning wish into grapeshot. However, you need a buttload of mana because you have to chuck a 2nd top and a helm into the stack. Is this really useful MD?
SB questions:
I have the most basic wish sb-
Tendrils
Doomsday
Deathmark
Thoughtseize
4 Show and tell
3 Emrakul
2 LDV
2 Pyroblast
I like the show and tell plan post board because I can bypass teeq, cannonist and mindbreaktrap. Also I get to cut mana accel (LED) for live cards against blue control since I don't play the meditate plan anymore. Thoughts? I'm sure this has been done before.