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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I lost horribly today against BUG Control, UB Tez, and Hive Mind. It went as follow:
0-2 vs. BUG
My opponent Jaces me while I am holding a bunch of Deeds. I get stuck on 1 land after 1 wasteland and I lose to Jace, Garruk, and Vraska before I reach 2 lands again.
2-0 vs. Sneak Show
The pilot missplayed a lot, I shouldn't have won.
0-2 vs. Hive Mind
I lost G1 to a T2 Show n Tell on Grisselbrand -> SnT Hive Mind. I lost G2 to a T0 Leyline of Sanctity while I am holding a Therapy hand.
0-2 vs. UB Tez
Lost G1 to a topdecked Jace on T3 after I brainstormed away my second Jace. FoW backup seals it. G2 was epic but I eventualy lost to a Tez ultimate after I had stabilized at 1 life against a Karn, 2 Jaces, and 2 Tez.
Lately, Liliana has let me down. I have found myself siding in Negates a lot. I will try a more BUG-ish approach with a couple of Counterspells, another Jace, and perhaps a Vraska.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
What is everybody's opinion on Counterspell vs. Rune Snag? I intend on testing a playset of one or the other as a replacement for the Trinket package.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Qweerios
What is everybody's opinion on Counterspell vs. Rune Snag? I intend on testing a playset of one or the other as a replacement for the Trinket package.
Counterspell is unconditional and therefore more reliable imo.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
@Qweerios -- Definitely Counterspell. The Veteran effect will likely be giving your opponent two lands, if none beyond that point, and while lategame Snags can be solid, I suspect that they'll be significantly worse than having a straight hard counter.
I just noticed something as I was looking back over your post. All of the things you lost to were noncreature spells, and you mention boarding in Negate a lot. What about putting the Negates maindeck, rather than Counterspells? The 1U vs UU argument is valid, and Negate is still a hard counter for the things that Nic Fit would tend to care about countering in the first place. Counterspell being able to hit creatures would probably only be relevant vs something like Maverick, but our Maverick matchup is the nut high anyway.
@Zirath -- Yeah, FoW sounds good in theory, but I was at 50 cards pre-trim without a parasitic 4-of. Note that I BELIEVE you can Force from the top of your deck if FoW is active, by pitching the card and paying the life. I can't track down a ruling to back that up, but I know that you can FoW in this manner from your graveyard while Yawg Will is active, so it would make sense if FS interacted similarly.
I see a profound lack of Pernicious Deed in your list, and I find this ...Vader voice... disturbing. Your argument for extra tops is a good one, and to be fair, running more Tops means having more Tops in your hand, which is a good place to be. I could see still running one, but it's possible that other tutoring options can suffice just as well.
How was your mana base? I look at it and think that 0 Bayous can't possibly be correct for a Nic Fit deck, but then I look back at Future Sight and frown. Maybe the City of Brass approach is better afterall =/
I'd definitely have Primeval Titan in, for sure. You talk about needing a clearer lategame -- well there you go. He fetches Ruins and Stronghold, and then you just sit there and win the game. He also punches for 6, unlike Expedition Map (although I do like Expedition Map as a card).
I think that with the feedback you've gathered so far, I would present my first draft as such:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Thragtusk
1x Magus of the Future
1x Primeval Titan
1x Future Sight
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Elixir of Immortality
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Grim Tutor
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Vraska the Unseen
4x Brainstorm
1x Academy Ruins
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Bayou
3x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
3x Island
2x Forest
2x Swamp
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
SB:
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Gilded Drake
1x Karakas
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
3x Negate
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Carpet of Flowers
Some thoughts....
Despite being in blue, Tribe-Elder gets the nod over Coiling Oracle. Oracle doesn't synergize well with Future Sight, and Elder gives another shuffle while being a guaranteed ramp/color-fix. Tusk and Primeval are the creature-based lategame, and Tusk as a card is better than RUG's entire 75. Tusk also makes up with Grim Tutor's cutting. Vraska gives Jace some backup in keeping the field clear, while being cheaper than Karn. She's also easier to overcome than Karn, and if testing shows that the 7-drop cost isn't a problem, Karn will get the nod over her. I'd like 1 copy of both Vraska and Karn, ideally, but we'll see what testing shows. Cutting to 6 fetches hurts, but I've added other shuffle effects elsewhere, most notably the 3rd Green Sun, which seems amazing for this deck because it shuffles itself in for reuse later. Again, pending what works and what doesn't, I'd almost like a Black Sun's Zenith for the same reason.
The sideboard has a bunch of situational, cheap/free 1-ofs for Grim Tutor to find. T1 Explorer into t2 Therapy/FB/Tutor->Crypt seems unbeatable vs dredge, for example. Being able to tutor Karakas seems fine vs Sneak/Reanimator. Carpet of Flowers are industry-standard tech vs RUG, blue control, and blue combo...switching out Explorers for Carpets vs Miracles is always good, and the Carpets have the added benefit here of being able to make a pisston of mana of one color, aka blue for FS. Carpets are also solid against Merfolk, which this list would likely struggle with due to the fact that it's much more blue-centric than other BUG Fit lists. Decays kill Counterbalance with no questions asked, which is important since CBTop shuts down FSTop. Obv. good vs Fish and RUG as well.
Obviously it needs testing and whatnot, but that'll be my starting point once I get the last bits I need to actually play it.
I'll try to do some brewing with the City of Brass approach as well, since it does feel like there might be something there. Being able to cast Slaughter Games and REB while not being all-in on red as a color sounds amazing.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
@Zirath -- Yeah, FoW sounds good in theory, but I was at 50 cards pre-trim without a parasitic 4-of. Note that I BELIEVE you can Force from the top of your deck if FoW is active, by pitching the card and paying the life. I can't track down a ruling to back that up, but I know that you can FoW in this manner from your graveyard while Yawg Will is active, so it would make sense if FS interacted similarly.
I see a profound lack of Pernicious Deed in your list, and I find this ...Vader voice... disturbing. Your argument for extra tops is a good one, and to be fair, running more Tops means having more Tops in your hand, which is a good place to be. I could see still running one, but it's possible that other tutoring options can suffice just as well.
How was your mana base? I look at it and think that 0 Bayous can't possibly be correct for a Nic Fit deck, but then I look back at Future Sight and frown. Maybe the City of Brass approach is better afterall =/
I'd definitely have Primeval Titan in, for sure. You talk about needing a clearer lategame -- well there you go. He fetches Ruins and Stronghold, and then you just sit there and win the game. He also punches for 6, unlike Expedition Map (although I do like Expedition Map as a card).
Force could find it's way in, but it requires the removal of Deed. If you look at your cards, that is the only cards you can replace in such a way. I actually find Deed to be a naturally slow card so I was curious how often I could get away with only EE. Sometimes it worked but enough of the time I did need the sweeper.
Mana needed to be fixed. Need more green sources. There was 1 or 2 times I wished I had Bayou but overall it was not a huge issue. Your mana base looks okay but I think you need Polluted Delta since you have 2 UUU spells and 2 UU spells both of which are high priority.
The problem with Primeval Titan is he only finds Towers. While that is theoretically good, sometimes it just doesn't do anything. It's great with Future Sight out since you can reset your top but there are definitely times where just a creature isn't cutting it. Granted there's no GSZ target that will be effective at producing large amounts of card advantage (thanks a lot Kavu Climber).
I do wish there was a way to fit a card like Tidings in here. There were a couple times I had a hand of infinite lands or almost 0 cards and just wanted to draw a lot of cards.
Also why Vraska? She's a 5 mana Maelstrom Pulse in this deck. I think Garruk Relentless would be better since he can tutor for Magus.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Hey everyone. I've gained interest in Nic Fit these last few days, and I like the idea of a BUG Future Sight version.
I have a few questions regarding your proposed list:
- how do you tutor for the one-of Helm, EE, and Elixir of Immortality, without Trinket Mage?
- are Helm / Tendrils really needed? Once you have Future Sight + Top in play, isn't the sheer card advantage enough to win? Couldn't we build the deck as a more "classical" BUG Gifts Fit version, using Future Sight as yet another bomb?
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zirath
Force could find it's way in, but it requires the removal of Deed. If you look at your cards, that is the only cards you can replace in such a way. I actually find Deed to be a naturally slow card so I was curious how often I could get away with only EE. Sometimes it worked but enough of the time I did need the sweeper.
Mana needed to be fixed. Need more green sources. There was 1 or 2 times I wished I had Bayou but overall it was not a huge issue. Your mana base looks okay but I think you need Polluted Delta since you have 2 UUU spells and 2 UU spells both of which are high priority.
The problem with Primeval Titan is he only finds Towers. While that is theoretically good, sometimes it just doesn't do anything. It's great with Future Sight out since you can reset your top but there are definitely times where just a creature isn't cutting it. Granted there's no GSZ target that will be effective at producing large amounts of card advantage (thanks a lot Kavu Climber).
I do wish there was a way to fit a card like Tidings in here. There were a couple times I had a hand of infinite lands or almost 0 cards and just wanted to draw a lot of cards.
Also why Vraska? She's a 5 mana Maelstrom Pulse in this deck. I think Garruk Relentless would be better since he can tutor for Magus.
Vraska isn't just a repeatable Pulse -- she's also a solid late-game win condition on her own merits. I've been testing her in the sideboard of Rector, and when she resolves, she's really hard to surmount. I do still believe Karn to be better if testing reveals that the mana can handle. It looks like it can, but I want to be sure first.
Skeletal Scrying? I feel like that would overload the life gain, though. The only other really viable options are something like Arena, Staff of Nin, etc....howling mine type effects. Every time I've tried Harmonize or any of its brethren, I've just been disappointed.
I think that the missing "card advantage GSZ dude" will be given to us come Gatecrash. That sounds exactly like something Simic wants to be doing. Until then, at least, I don't think we can do better than Prime Time. It's also relevant that he gets Academy Ruins, which provides a Pernicious Deed deck a way to keep Helm of Awakening around other than Eternal Witness. Also, don't underestimate the Two Towers -- once Phyrexian/Volrath's are online together in a mid-late game scenario, it can be almost impossible to effectively deal with -- even more so with Future Sight active. Indeed, that's one reason I moved away from Recurring Nightmare with this list -- Two Towers + FS emulates it very nicely without needing to work in the deckbuilding baggage that come with Nightmare.
I usually do 3/3 out of force of habit, but I think that 4 Misty / 2 Verdant is probably closer to correct. Green fetches are sadly critical in Nic Fit, because there are a literal ton of decks where you need to be able to fetch basic Forest t1. Deltas might work better with the mid-game spells, but basic Forest is critical vs any deck that does not run Wasteland.
And yeah, it probably comes down to Force vs Deed -- and I'll side with Deed every time. It is a slow card, I'll grant, but it's also a match made in heaven with this deck [Nic Fit the archetype]. Deed's the reason Nic Fit is a good deck, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirTylerGalt
Hey everyone. I've gained interest in Nic Fit these last few days, and I like the idea of a BUG Future Sight version.
I have a few questions regarding your proposed list:
- how do you tutor for the one-of Helm, EE, and Elixir of Immortality, without Trinket Mage?
- are Helm / Tendrils really needed? Once you have Future Sight + Top in play, isn't the sheer card advantage enough to win? Couldn't we build the deck as a more "classical" BUG Gifts Fit version, using Future Sight as yet another bomb?
With Top and Future Sight going, along with the copious shuffles and Brainstorm effects in this deck, it's actually pretty easy to find one-ofs, especially when they're something like Elixir that you don't really need to find quickly. Also, Grim Tutor is a beast. You only really need one EE, because once it's active you'll never need another one (Academy Ruins). You can also think of it as the 4th Deed, if you'd like.
I'm favored towards Helm/Tendrils because I know from Scapewish how powerful it can be to have a "I win" button. Playing an essentially fair deck that suddenly turns unfair is a concept that I've been trying to port from Vintage for a while now, and only achieved success so far in Scapewish. It's obv. easier in Vintage because you can take any blue deck, shove a Yawg Will and a Tendrils in it, and suddenly you can just go oops lategame. But that's basically the goal of the Helm/Tendrils. There will be many games, as well, where you can just mini-Tendrils someone out of the game, or buy a crucial turn or two. The Elixir is included so that you don't feel guilty about doing this -- you can always recycle it for later. If we wanted to go more all-in on the combo, we could include more Helms, but I feel that a 1-of to just go "oops, I win," is sufficient.
I'll mention that I tried to shoehorn FS into a "classic" BUG control Fit build for a while, but it didn't really do much for me. I think that FS needs to be focused around a little bit more to really draw out its power.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
The following is a reflection of my own experience with the various no-sac-outlet ramp options.
Two things every nosac manadork needs: it's needs to be green and therefore Zenithable, and it needs to be able to make mana each turn given the appropriate conditions. This includes, but not limited to:
Dryad Arbor
Arbor Elf
Birds of Paradise
Deathrite Shaman
Noble Hierarch
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Each of these have their own perks and quirks. Dryad Arbor is the cheapest to Zenith for and can be fetched with Fetchlands, but is a land itself so playing it from the hand slows you down. Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch, although unable to contribute much to the clock, are perhaps the most consistent mana-fixers available. Deathrite Shaman is a jack of all trades, able to gain life, take life, and ramp, but is difficult to maintain consistency. Sakura-Tribe Elder, although it costs the most to zenith for, it is probably the least susceptible to removal.
And then my favorite: Arbor Elf. As we all know, one of the biggest perks of playing with Legacy are the amazing options for building a manabase with--in other words, the dual lands and, for budget variants, the shocklands. Therefore, Arbor Elf becomes a Birds of Paradise for your colors as long as your dual lands have the forest subtype. The most notable weakness of this creature is the susceptibility to nonbasic hate.
TL;DR: Each manadork has it's own flaws or traits. My personal favorite atm is Arbor Elf.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EpicLevelCommoner
The following is a reflection of my own experience with the various no-sac-outlet ramp options.
Two things every nosac manadork needs: it's needs to be green and therefore Zenithable, and it needs to be able to make mana each turn given the appropriate conditions. This includes, but not limited to:
Dryad Arbor
Arbor Elf
Birds of Paradise
Deathrite Shaman
Noble Hierarch
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Each of these have their own perks and quirks. Dryad Arbor is the cheapest to Zenith for and can be fetched with Fetchlands, but is a land itself so playing it from the hand slows you down. Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch, although unable to contribute much to the clock, are perhaps the most consistent mana-fixers available. Deathrite Shaman is a jack of all trades, able to gain life, take life, and ramp, but is difficult to maintain consistency. Sakura-Tribe Elder, although it costs the most to zenith for, it is probably the least susceptible to removal.
And then my favorite: Arbor Elf. As we all know, one of the biggest perks of playing with Legacy are the amazing options for building a manabase with--in other words, the dual lands and, for budget variants, the shocklands. Therefore, Arbor Elf becomes a Birds of Paradise for your colors as long as your dual lands have the forest subtype. The most notable weakness of this creature is the susceptibility to nonbasic hate.
TL;DR: Each manadork has it's own flaws or traits. My personal favorite atm is Arbor Elf.
The problem that I have with Arbor Elf is that it gets shafted by Wasteland. I mean, if you have a lot of decks that don't run Waste in your meta, then Arbor Elf is fine -- but Waste in resp. to untapping a land has to be about the worst thing ever.
Also, as far as commonly played options go, you forgot Wood Elves, which is the most expensive to Zenith out, but also has far and away the most powerful effect.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Vraska isn't just a repeatable Pulse -- she's also a solid late-game win condition on her own merits. I've been testing her in the sideboard of Rector, and when she resolves, she's really hard to surmount. I do still believe Karn to be better if testing reveals that the mana can handle. It looks like it can, but I want to be sure first.
Skeletal Scrying? I feel like that would overload the life gain, though. The only other really viable options are something like Arena, Staff of Nin, etc....howling mine type effects. Every time I've tried Harmonize or any of its brethren, I've just been disappointed.
I think that the missing "card advantage GSZ dude" will be given to us come Gatecrash. That sounds exactly like something Simic wants to be doing. Until then, at least, I don't think we can do better than Prime Time. It's also relevant that he gets Academy Ruins, which provides a Pernicious Deed deck a way to keep Helm of Awakening around other than Eternal Witness. Also, don't underestimate the Two Towers -- once Phyrexian/Volrath's are online together in a mid-late game scenario, it can be almost impossible to effectively deal with -- even more so with Future Sight active. Indeed, that's one reason I moved away from Recurring Nightmare with this list -- Two Towers + FS emulates it very nicely without needing to work in the deckbuilding baggage that come with Nightmare.
I usually do 3/3 out of force of habit, but I think that 4 Misty / 2 Verdant is probably closer to correct. Green fetches are sadly critical in Nic Fit, because there are a literal ton of decks where you need to be able to fetch basic Forest t1. Deltas might work better with the mid-game spells, but basic Forest is critical vs any deck that does not run Wasteland.
And yeah, it probably comes down to Force vs Deed -- and I'll side with Deed every time. It is a slow card, I'll grant, but it's also a match made in heaven with this deck [Nic Fit the archetype]. Deed's the reason Nic Fit is a good deck, IMO.
I just don't fully see what Vraska's doing. Like if the game stalls to where you can get her ult off, you should have already won. I can see it working a little better in Rector but you also have multiple hard stalling mechanisms while here we have a bunch of mana dorks to block with.
Karn seems like too much. Karn actually requires immense speed to use effectively because he can't deal with overdeveloped boards. He can easily deal with 2-3 creatures against something like Maverick but it is impossible for him to stop a deck like Goblins or Affinity from going critical. At best you would be casting him on 3 and most likely with little back up.
I'll think about that last slot. I feel like I'd want another card to contribute to the combo.
Also I noticed you cut Trinket Mage. Was this an accident?
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zirath
I just don't fully see what Vraska's doing. Like if the game stalls to where you can get her ult off, you should have already won. I can see it working a little better in Rector but you also have multiple hard stalling mechanisms while here we have a bunch of mana dorks to block with.
Karn seems like too much. Karn actually requires immense speed to use effectively because he can't deal with overdeveloped boards. He can easily deal with 2-3 creatures against something like Maverick but it is impossible for him to stop a deck like Goblins or Affinity from going critical. At best you would be casting him on 3 and most likely with little back up.
I'll think about that last slot. I feel like I'd want another card to contribute to the combo.
Also I noticed you cut Trinket Mage. Was this an accident?
Nope. I came to the same conclusion that it just isn't as good as I want it to be, and more Tops are just better. Plus, Grim Tutor serves the same goal at the same mana cost, and better.
Vraska is good because she can make it really hard for a deck to recover from Deed. Like, think about Maverick. Usually you crack Deed, and they are either out of cards in hand, or they have like a Knight or something. They drop it, you drop Vraska. Now they have to drop two creatures at once to even be able to get something through, and that's discounting anything that you're doing. The way I like to think of Vraska is that, while she won't help you regain control, she'll ensure that you never lose it once you do have it.
Karn's much the same way, except that he can also eat their hand, and he grows -stupid- fast. Like he has so much loyalty that he can't really be killed if you're smart with him / you have backup for him. I think that he's the same as Vraska, except bigger and splashier. His ult, properly set up, will win the game -- and you only have to use his ult if you're in danger of losing in the first place. Otherwise he just sits there being a tank, eating everything you don't like. But yeah, I will definitely concede that neither is good at helping you gain control; only ensuring that you never lose control.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Nope. I came to the same conclusion that it just isn't as good as I want it to be, and more Tops are just better. Plus, Grim Tutor serves the same goal at the same mana cost, and better.
Vraska is good because she can make it really hard for a deck to recover from Deed. Like, think about Maverick. Usually you crack Deed, and they are either out of cards in hand, or they have like a Knight or something. They drop it, you drop Vraska. Now they have to drop two creatures at once to even be able to get something through, and that's discounting anything that you're doing. The way I like to think of Vraska is that, while she won't help you regain control, she'll ensure that you never lose it once you do have it.
Karn's much the same way, except that he can also eat their hand, and he grows -stupid- fast. Like he has so much loyalty that he can't really be killed if you're smart with him / you have backup for him. I think that he's the same as Vraska, except bigger and splashier. His ult, properly set up, will win the game -- and you only have to use his ult if you're in danger of losing in the first place. Otherwise he just sits there being a tank, eating everything you don't like. But yeah, I will definitely concede that neither is good at helping you gain control; only ensuring that you never lose control.
I have an issue with that fact; part of the reason to play these high investment spells is that they allow you to maintain control if you are trying to play a control deck. There just seems to me to be many situations where they are too slow or too narrow.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Hi guys, don't know if this fits here but I am playtesting this list at the moment:
4 Birthing Pod
1 Bone Shredder
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Plague Spitter
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Strangleroot Geist
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Built this from the ground up and playtesting on Cockatrice. I really want to port Birthing Pod into Legacy and Nic Fit seems to be a NICE FIT. :tongue:
I've seen a few lists trying to run it in a Nic Fit shell as well. I love how Strangleroot Geist and Kitchen Finks synergize with Birthing Pod. I'm planning to add up more Geists but I can't seem to find room for it. -1 StP probably. Thoughts?
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I don't think Negate in the main are a good idea. I would rather bite the bullet and risk the double blue of Counterspell.
Also, this might be stupid or genius, I don't know yet, but I've had a flash of insight:
What do you guys think of Pongify? It's kinda awesome with Explorer...
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Qweerios
Also, this might be stupid or genius, I don't know yet, but I've had a flash of insight:
What do you guys think of
Pongify? It's kinda awesome with Explorer...
I ran it in my own deck back when it was printed. It was actually surprisingly good, since it gives you the option of using it for removal or as a combat trick. It's not quite as good since M10, but it still has essentially the same applications. At this point, I'd just wonder whether it was worth the slots; Decay is better, and I'm not sure what you'd cut for it.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I'm just getting into this deck. Looks like a fucking pile but it plays like a beast. I'm going with the Scapeshift version since Midrange-Combo sounds like the coolest goddamn archetype in all of Magic.
Quick question to Arianhood, would you mind telling me how you side with the Scapeshift version? I'm guessing +3 REB's vs RUG and SnT, and you keep them out vs Miracles? And you add Thoughtseize vs combo and Miracles, siding out Bonfire?
Since the sb is mostly a wishboard it's a lot easier to sb, but help a fellow Nic-Fit noobie out ;D!
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
wont let me edit my goddamn posts. sorry for the double post.
Would it be smart to add a Dryad Arbor over a Forest in the deck, since we run GSZ? Or are we saving GSZs for bigger and better things?
And how do you feel about cutting a swamp for a Verdant Catacomb? Getting stuck without a green sucks, and the Catacombs can even fetch a red source.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Man, everything's new and shiny with the forum software and I'm not sure I like it because it's different -.-
Anywho, moving on...
@Qweerios -- I can't believe I'm saying this (Rusalka moment), but I actually like Pongify. The biggest problem I've -always- had with Innocent Blood, as I've said many times previously, is that you don't get to kill what you really want to kill. They'll just sac their Dryad Arbor or unflipped Delver or whatever, instead of what you actually want to kill. Pongify is removal, but it's also Cabal Therapy 5 & 6 with regards to killing Explorer, and it nets you a blocker for your troubles. The only real issue with it is that I feel your deck could benefit from a few creatures with 4+ on the ass end so that you don't have any risk of getting punched down by apes. It's sweet with Thragtusk, for sure, but it's also kind of awkward against Thragtusk, since the Ape trades with the Tusk. Obv. Deeds/Vraska/Jace/etc, but I'm not sure I like your creature base...especially without Primeval Titan. I'm very surprised to see you cut him, especially given how much work PrimeTime -> Two Towers has done for you in the past. The only real issue that I think this list has from a theoretical point of view is that I can see if running out of gas really quickly because its curve is so low compared to other Nic Fit decks. You still have the acceleration, but because you have Accel with a lower curve, you'll burn through your cards more quickly.
Random observation: is your curve getting low enough for Dark Confidant? You're kind of in the vintage range now....vintage decks run Gush, Jace, and Force alongside Bob and don't have any real problems, although obviously life total matters less in that format. Legacy, however, has unrestricted Brainstorm to work with, and you're running Tops and Jaces which can make him better as well. Plus, if you start to get low, you can just trade him in for an ape! It's a thought, at least. Your list is the closest to being able to run Bob of any build put forth in this thread so far.
@Kanti -- Welcome to the deck =)
Dryad Arbor is a bad idea in Scapewish especially. Scapewish wants to get more lands in play, and Green Sun gives you a choice: you can either do it for 0 and get 1 land, or you can do it for 1 and get two lands. Whenever I see a Green Sun in Scapewish, it usually turns into another Explorer, depending on board state and the rest of my hand. Like if I have an Explorer and a Wood Elves or something, I'll usually use it to either grab another Explorer if I'm all-in on Scapeshift and have an outlet, a Wood Elves if I'm all in on Scapeshift and don't have an outlet, a huntmaster if I need more time or am on beatdown, or a Witness if it's lategame. If I'm vs RUG, UR, burn, etc, I'll ignore everything and just go for Thragtusk ASAP. If I'm vs like Miracles or if I ramped hard early game, I'll go for Primeval ASAP. There aren't really any scenarios with GSZ where I'd want to get Arbor. Also, most games you'll set off at least one Deed before Scapeshifting, and Arbor dies to Deed, which sets you back a land. The one and only thing that Arbor has going for it is that it can enable a t2 Wood Elves. But I don't think that's worth running it....it's almost always correct to GSZ for something else.
The 2nd Swamp has actually been fairly important. I don't like running 1-of basics in Nic Fit, because more often than not the fates will troll you and you'll have the 1-of in your hand when you need to get it. Also, Rishadan Port is a card, as is the Damnation in your board (and the two frequently overlap...where there are Ports, you'll often want Damnation). Furthermore, you want plenty of basics for Explorers to get, since your combo plan is oriented around setting off Explorers...the more that go off, the sooner you can combo, and the stronger your combo will be. You generally want to avoid getting more than 2 Mountains (basic or dual) in the early-mid game. If you draw more naturally it's not the end of the world, but you want as many in your deck as you can safely leave without hurting your mana development. That means that you have 4 Forests, 2 Swamps, and 1 Mountain (I usually grab 1 basic mountain with an Explorer just so that I have a non-waste-able Red for Wish/Bonfire/Huntmaster/etc) to work with. If you assume that you'll naturally draw one of those basics, you have 6 left in deck that you want to get, which is 3 Explorers. See where this is going?
I'm not saying that having a fetch or two wouldn't improve some opening hands. However, the miniscule chance of having that fetch in your opener is outweighed by making your land tutoring as smooth as possible in all stages of the game.
As for boarding, REBs come in vs RUG, any blue combo deck, and they do come in vs Miracles. Jace is still a problem, as with any version of Nic Fit, and REB is the single most efficient answer to Jace in the game. Countering Brainstorms can also be enormous, since they can be used to set up Miracles. Thoughtseizes basically only come in vs combo decks, but there are exceptions to that. If I'm on the play vs a control deck, I'll board in the Thoughtseizes, because that gives me an additional chance to take, say, Top from Miracles. On the draw, though, Thoughtseize isn't worth it vs a control deck. Don't forget that you can Burning Wish for Thoughtseize if you know they have something you don't want. They're in the board to be boarded in, not wished for, but never forget that you can access them from your board if necessary. I tend to play Thoughtseize like blue players do Daze...if you've played Daze, think of it that way.
I leave Bonfire in vs Miracles, actually, and board out 3 Veterans for 3 REBs. Miracles can use the basics better than we can, and we have Wood Elves as a backup ramp source. Bonfire can be really hard for them to counter, it can dome them for a ton if miracled late game, and it's a counter to both Jace (redirect the damage) and Entreat (obviously)...aka both of their win conditions. I do board out Bonfires vs combo, though, for fairly obvious reasons. Deed stays in vs LED combo, because a lot of times LED decks will just run their LEDs out for fear of discard..then you can blow them up with Deed. Also, LED decks either run Empty the Warrens or are Dredge with Bridge from Below -- both things Deed eats. Note that boarding in REB vs Dredge isn't a horrible idea if they're LED dredge, because you can counter their Breakthrough, and you can destroy their Narcomoebas if they pass priority. It isn't -enormously- useful, but Scapewish basically looks at Dredge and screams YOLO at the top of its lungs, so you need whatever edge you can get.
@Sherko -- Snap-add an Academy Rector and a Recurring Nightmare to that deck ASAP. Easy access to Rector (and thus to Nightmare) is one of the strongest dimensions of Pod builds of Nic Fit, especially since your gy and deck are stocked with things that really abuse Nightmare. Swords is pretty weak in your deck, and I wouldn't lose any sleep over cutting all of them. You have creature-based removal with Bone Shredder, and you have Pernicious Deed. Pod is going to make an obnoxious enough board state that it doesn't need targeted removal as much as some other builds do. Also, I would consider Sun Titan. Again, Pod can easily access him, and has a ton of ways to break him. I feel like I'm overlooking something really obvious, but I can't think of what it is. If I think of it later, I'll post again with that information.
@Zirath -- Honestly, Future Fit needs tested before we'll know for sure on which side the coin lands. The archetype is so versatile that it's impossible to say with any confidence whether this specific version wants the "big walkers" or not. I'm inclined to think yes, because it gives the deck an added late-game oomph. But, it's entirely possible that it doesn't need it, can't survive until that point anyway, etc etc. Unfortunately, I'm not going to really have a chance to run it at all until next Tuesday -- I'm taking this weekend off from Magic, since I've been either out of town or at work without a day off for over a month, with at least a month of the same staring me in the face. I'm planning on sitting on my ass writing, playing League, and watching Doctor Who the entire weekend. I'm fine sitting here and debating theory, but I think that we're at the point where it just needs tested...theory isn't going to buy us much, if anything, until we know what works and what doesn't =(
Unrelatedly, you going up to Providence with Steve/Rob/etc?
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
@Zirath -- Honestly, Future Fit needs tested before we'll know for sure on which side the coin lands. The archetype is so versatile that it's impossible to say with any confidence whether this specific version wants the "big walkers" or not. I'm inclined to think yes, because it gives the deck an added late-game oomph. But, it's entirely possible that it doesn't need it, can't survive until that point anyway, etc etc. Unfortunately, I'm not going to really have a chance to run it at all until next Tuesday -- I'm taking this weekend off from Magic, since I've been either out of town or at work without a day off for over a month, with at least a month of the same staring me in the face. I'm planning on sitting on my ass writing, playing League, and watching Doctor Who the entire weekend. I'm fine sitting here and debating theory, but I think that we're at the point where it just needs tested...theory isn't going to buy us much, if anything, until we know what works and what doesn't =(
Unrelatedly, you going up to Providence with Steve/Rob/etc?
I took your list and goldfished it a little bit and ended up cutting the Explosives and the Elixir for Noxious Revival (yes I went down to 60). In goldfishing it felt strong since it did allow some strong interactions with Oracle and Future Sight. I also replaced Vraska with Garruk ATM but the list feels very removal light so maybe Vraska is right. You definitely don't have the control that you get from Rector. Still feels a little clunky. Hopefully I can test with some people this coming weekend.
@Qweerios: Have you thought about a miser's Snapcaster? It interacts relatively well with a lot of your cards (like Pongify).
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Editing features on new forum format is broken. Can't/don't want to go to Providence. Gonna be out of town for an entire week at the end of the month so I'd rather be at home this weekend.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
@Arianrhod
Thanks for the suggestions! Yeah, I needed another 4 drop as well. With your suggestions, here's my new list:
4 Birthing Pod
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Strangleroot Geist
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Eternal Witness
1 Plague Spitter
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Bone Shredder
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
1 Academy Rector
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sun Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
I think what you (and I) overlooked is probably Ooze. Also, I decided to cut all the Planeswalkers altogether in order to fully utilize Pod. The deck also lacks the 5th-8th discard other builds have, but I don't think that will fully affect my gameplan. I'm thinking of adding in 1-2 copies of E. Tutor for getting Pod, does it seem worthwhile?
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Any thoughts on Liliana Vess over Liliana of the Veil? Vess eems like a given for Future Sight decks and doesn't have that obnoxious double-sided discard, but Veil has the added benefit of being able to take down Proggy and coming down with two less mana.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Another quick question, why are all the Nic-Fit builds 61 cards o_o?
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
If anyone's interested, there's a SP Korean Explorer on SCG right now for just under 20. I'm not sure if anyone else is being as masochistic as I was (god it feels good to have that set done), but I figured I'd let you guys know.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kanti
Another quick question, why are all the Nic-Fit builds 61 cards o_o?
I think Arianrhod has mentioned in the past that he feels it runs smoother. Personally, running a Rector build, if there's a card that can be cut to get to 60 cards I don't know what it is.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slikwilly
I think Arianrhod has mentioned in the past that he feels it runs smoother. Personally, running a Rector build, if there's a card that can be cut to get to 60 cards I don't know what it is.
Yeah. I've tried it both ways, and it runs just fine at 61. Also, Nic Fit is a deck built around tutoring...some decks have upwards of 3 different toolboxes! I would much rather have that extra bullet than lose out on the tiny fraction of a chance of having any specific card in your opening hand...especially considering how many 1-ofs we run. Furthermore, Explorer thins your deck out so quickly (as do GSZ, Sakura-Tribe, Wood Elves, etc etc etc) that past opening hands, the 61st card really ceases to matter. There have been many games where I've had fewer cards left in my deck by the end of the game than my blue opponent.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
With the BUG version i'm running i'm usually not very concerned about winning in time, i am however often concerned if i can manage to win before i deck myself :P
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
If anyone's interested, there's a SP Korean Explorer on SCG right now for just under 20. I'm not sure if anyone else is being as masochistic as I was (god it feels good to have that set done), but I figured I'd let you guys know.
I actually traded a Korean Explorer with my brother for a Gatekeeper of Malakir when I first started with Nic Fit.
Didn't realise they were worth that much. :eyebrow:
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Depends on when you started. I got my first Korean one for $1. Then $10. Then $15. Then my last one was $20, and I didn't care because it was my last one. The biggest single problem is that they're actually impossible to find, because when people were busting boxes of Korean Weatherlight, they were basically looking for Null Rod and throwing the rest out. Maybe you had some (at the time) fringe cards like Serenity or Peacekeeper, but Weatherlight, despite being a really cool set, doesn't exactly have a ton of valuable/powerful cards in it. So it's not really surprising that there isn't a huge supply of them, which drives the price up.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
So I was thinking, what if rather than Innocent Blood we ran Act of Treason? If you take an Emrakul you probably just win on the spot, same with Griselbrand as you can draw 7-14 right into a Therapy or Tower.
Thoughts?
edit: Or how about Consuming Vapors? It is probably too slow against SnT, since at that point you could just fetch Damnation, but hey. And shite, forgot about Emrakuls protection. Guess thats out of the question.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I don't believe you can take Emrakul, since it has protection from colored spells and Act of Treason targets.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
@ Kanti:
The thing about taking Emrakul is that it has to be SnT'd itself, in which case Gilded Drake is your best bet. However, if they SnT the Omniscience or Sneak Attack, you aren't getting anything other than some of Emrakul's Spiky Tentacles of Forced Intrusion.
Like someone else said, your best bet against OmniTell or Sneaky Show is Oblivion Ring, Angel of Despair, or Ulamog the Infinite Gyre: basically anything that has an EtB condition that will kill either Omniscience or Emrakul/Griselbrand, regardless of the colors you run.
Also, I'd consider running Fleshbag Marauder over vapors, simply because it can be cheated into play with Show and Tell. But some kind of Edict effect is preferred simply because of Rebirth Order Progenitus.
@ No one in particular: Holy hell! Breakthrough ... Breakthrough is awesome with all the ramp we do, especially since when goldfishing I'll wind up in top deck mode often. Though, I need to expand my tools to match my toolbox of 3 JMS, 2 Vess, 2/3 Diabolic Intent, and 2/3 Breakthrough. So far I've got four slots open: I'm thinking O-Ring, Fleshbag, and two other archetype hate cards.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Ulamog doesn't work, it has a cast trigger not an ETB one.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EpicLevelCommoner
@ Kanti:
The thing about taking Emrakul is that it has to be SnT'd itself, in which case Gilded Drake is your best bet. However, if they SnT the Omniscience or Sneak Attack, you aren't getting anything other than some of
Emrakul's Spiky Tentacles of Forced Intrusion.
Like someone else said, your best bet against OmniTell or Sneaky Show is Oblivion Ring, Angel of Despair, or Ulamog the Infinite Gyre: basically anything that has an EtB condition that will kill either Omniscience or Emrakul/Griselbrand, regardless of the colors you run.
Also, I'd consider running Fleshbag Marauder over vapors, simply because it can be cheated into play with Show and Tell. But some kind of Edict effect is preferred simply because of Rebirth Order Progenitus.
@ No one in particular: Holy hell! Breakthrough ... Breakthrough is awesome with all the ramp we do, especially since when goldfishing I'll wind up in top deck mode often. Though, I need to expand my tools to match my toolbox of 3 JMS, 2 Vess, 2/3 Diabolic Intent, and 2/3 Breakthrough. So far I've got four slots open: I'm thinking O-Ring, Fleshbag, and two other archetype hate cards.
@Kanti -- if you're worried about Emrakul, play Rector. Scapewish's "out" to Emrakul is BW->Slaughter Games, which is just not gonna get there every game. Scapewish is tuned for anti-fair, not anti-combo. It can certainly beat fair decks, but you have to play hella tight and you have to have a bit of luck.
@ELC -- If you're impressed by Breakthrough, I'm going to show you something else really nifty now: Read the Runes. Have fun with that xD
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
BUG (Trinket Mage) Fit or Scapewish tomorrow?
My predicted meta: a lot Tribal(Goblins,Combo Elves,Merfolk) & a lot RUG Tempo/Canadian & UW Miracle
reasonable amount of Show and Tell decks, Stoneblade & Maverick
Burn, U/R Delver, Zombardment
(sometimes Dredge,Enchantress, Dragonstompy & Lands)
nearly No storm/combo decks or Midrange/Loam
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Scapewish, totally. The only actual bad matchups out of all of that are dredge and Show and Tell. You should eat everything else (assuming my list or very close).
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
If you had to cut a card from the Scapeshift build, to go down to 60, which would it be? I ask since I find myself always wanting Explorer or Therapy in hand, and figured I'd try to go down that road. Obviously the deck has been working for you with 61, but thats another point.
I'm guessing it would be a Forest, Wood Elves, or Huntmaster? I am trying 23 lands with 3 Wood Elves. What do you think?
And how is Sylvan Library in the Scapewish version? Since it doesnt run too many fetches SDT can sometimes be lackluster. What do you think of 2 SDT/1 Library?
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
So Steve already texted you about this at my urging but Dovescape in the Rector build. If the metagame were heavier on combo, I think it could be powerful.
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Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Played in my first tournament with this deck, going 2-2. Played against Miracles, BUG Control, Maverick, and Belcher. I beat Miracles and Maverick, lost to Jaces in BUG (and the FoW'd Sensei's top after keeping a sketchy hand) and lost on turn 1 both games vs belcher. All those Jaces made me wish my singleton Abrupt Decay were another Pulse. Diabolic intent is the best. I totally was not expecting how good it was. Also I was happy that I played 3 Liliana, which I almost didn't do. They were a lot better in real life than on Cockatrice, since I was actually playing against real decks. I didn't like Hymn to Tourach, so I want to replace them with either 2 Thoughtseizes or another Witness and an Ooze, but I don't really want to pay for a second Ooze.
My decklist was:
3 Bayou
2 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
5 Forest
4 Swamp
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Kodama of the North Tree
2 Eternal Witnes
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Innocent Blood
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Hymn to Tourach
Sideboard:
2 Extirpate
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Duress (want Damnation but for some reason I don't want to buy it)
1 Memoricide
3 Thoughtseize
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Darkblast
2 Nihil Spellbomb
