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What is the best strategy for playing against Lands? Played in a small 20 man event a couple of weeks ago and got rumbled by Lands two rounds in a row. Managed to pull a game in each but ended 1-2 both rounds. Felt i was behind the whole time... Whether it was Waste-lock or continuous Punishing Fire
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Lands is just miserable. Punishing Fire kills all of our early threats, then Wasteland and Tabernacle kill everything else. The matchup is really poor, since not only is our maindeck removal spells are dead (~4 Decay and ~2 Push), but the 4 Hymn's that give us an edge in poorer matchups are terrible here as well.
Deathrite Shaman and Surgical Extraction are the best options. Both can take care of Punishing Fire and Life From the Loam, and if you time it right, Deathrite can exile these cards (as well as value lands) in G1. Aggressively use counter spells against P-Fire, so you can exile it in response to a Grove activation.
Also, it's important to play around cycling lands. The Lands player can cycle Tranquil Thicket or the new "dual land" cyclers from Amonket to dredge Loam back into their hands in the face of our own DRS.
This is one of the few matchups where I actually like True-Name Nemesis, since it attacks through Maze of Ith and survives P-Fire.
I'm not really comfortable with the matchup, but I've found that countering Gamble is a big tempo play in our favour. Other than that, try to next-level their recursion of their engine cards (Loam and P-Fire) with multiple Deathrites, and play Surgical Extraction.
EDIT: Grafdigger's Cage might seem okay, but it's completely useless. Loam and P-Fire aren't cast from the graveyard, so Lands players can still do their thing.
The only thing I'd add is that Decay isn't totally dead and I typically don't board it out. You can sometimes pinch them on mana by Decaying a Mox Diamond, and keeping Exploration and Manabond off of the table is essential buys a lot of time against an active Loam. You should also consider Lands-specific sideboard cards if you expect to see it a lot. The best options are graveyard hate (Surgical is probably best), Pithing Needle, Leovold, Clique, Crucible of Worlds, and Life from the Loam.
If you can squeeze a winter orb in the board it helps. Leovold is pretty good if they're on the port version. I find the best plan is counter all their gambles and land an early goyf to clock them. If you decay a mox or exploration it helps grow goyf more than normal.
Well my self control failed me and I ordered 3 Goyfs for my deck. My one bit of restraint was that I didn't get the full playset, so there's that. Now I'm curious what people think the best creature is for that spot, here are my options:
- Tombstalker: I don't think playing 2 Tombstalker in the deck is that outrageous (I've resolved two in one game on multiple occasions), but I'm concerned that I'll be shrinking my Goyfs with it. I really like Tombstalker and he usually wins the game when he resolves, so maybe a slightly smaller Goyf is less of a problem. This is probably my top choice.
- TNN: More resistant to removal than anything else, pitches to force, and has great evasion. 3 CMC sucks. Probably my second pick.
- Leovold: Most powerful single creature in terms of abilities, but he is not relevant in every MU, 3 CMC still sucks. Feels like win-more to me.
- Clique: Good against combo and probably will be in the board no matter what. Dies to a stiff breeze, again 3 CMC sucks.
All four options are reasonable I think, play which one suits the meta you expect to face. Vs an unknown, Leovold is pretty great to mise.
My meta is combo heavy (Reanimator, Sneak/show, some Storm) and a lot of random Tier 2 jankiness. Funnily enough, someone 5-0'ed a daily with this creature base:Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
4x DRS
4x Delver
3x Goyf
1x Tombstalker
2x Leovold
So I suppose it isn't just win-more after all.
I definitely do not think leo is win more. He combines perfectly with hymn and is a valuable out to glimpse of nature.
Which sideboard cards are good against the new version of Miracles? And which cards are worth taking out?
Abrupt Decay still feels useful, since you'll often face Blood Moon, Back to Basics, mentors and SFMs.
Is it worth bringing in our own Jaces against them?
I'm looking for some ideas about sideboarding with this deck. I've got a few specific areas that I'd like advice on, I'm using the standard Lili/Hymn build. My meta is insanely combo heavy, more than 50% of the field is Sneak/Show, Reanimator variants, Elves, Dredge, Aluren, etc. There are also a fair number of Burn decks. Here is my board:
Sideboard
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Invasive Surgery
3x Thoughtseize
1x Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1x Sylvan Library
1x Dead Weight
2x Fatal Push
2x Golgari Charm
Here are the things I am curious about:
- How many Abrupt Decay do you leave in against Storm or Sneak/Show to either hit artifacts that they put down or things like Moon/Defense Grid?
- For grindier creature combo decks like Elves or Aluren, how many Daze do you leave in? I'm imagining cutting Liliana, 2-3x Daze, and Tombstalker to bring in more hate.
- Against creature hatebear decks like Maverick or D&T, what is your Daze/Force mix that you remove? With RUG Delver I used to cut all of my Forces for matches like these, but I'm thinking a mix is probably more balanced.
- How many Dazes do you remove against control decks where the games are likely to go long? I'm trying to make space for Thoughtseize, Jace and Library.
- Very different decks. I'd keep 3 Decay for S&T as you may want to see 2, but seeing 3 is surely a game lossQuote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
- I normally trim dazes last, in sequence, from the deck. Start with the slowest/most ineffective stuff, work your way to daze, and start cutting. So cutting a couple daze sounds about right. I like stalker against Elves as a flyer. Consider trimming teh Spierce over Daze #4 against Elves. IME, if one's dead, so is the other, but getting a hardcasted Hoof will feel really bad if you have Spierce, and losing to a greedy 4-mana NO on T2 because you played Delver T1, that seems really lame. It's most important T1-3.
- Not sure, I'd let a more dedicated Delver tell you. Those are terrible MUs IME.
- If you're bringing in Jaces, Dazes get much much worse. A T3 Jace here can seal the match. A T5 Jace is pretty good, but is considerably worse as their ability to have an answer has grown; including a clique in hand with open mana. Depends on the control deck as Lands vs. Miracles vs. Shardless vs Czech are all quite different. Lands and Miracles don't require much removal, Shardless will probably beat up your Jace by going wide and bouncing dudes is typically bad, Czech will probably hit jace slower than he can tick up.
Also, I'm pretty big on Chill. If you're weak to Lands, want to seal the Sneakshow MU, and have loads of burn in the area? Totally add a chill, probably in place of Dead Weight. Great as a way to slow PFire to a halt, make Gamble a lot slower, etc.. makes SneakShow have (pretty much) just S&T as their out, and Burn slows down by 3 or so turns (and you don't have to respect Fireblast very much at that point.) Makes your Stifles *WAY* better too if they're fetchland versions. Now we're looking at game lock outs. Really a good card. I feel like I'd aim for a 1x Null Rod in your side, a 1x Cage, and a 1x Dread of Night.
The MUs you mentioned are affected by those things, and those things also affect combo MUs (minus Dread.) -1 Surgical, +1 Cage, -1 Surgery, +1 Rod, -1 Surgery, +1 DoN. I don't know, whatever works. This helps your Elves, Storm, D&T, and Mav MUs, but shouldn't negatively affect much else.
I'd cut 1 thoughtseize, library, and 1 invasive surgery and add 2 flusters and 1 leovold. Also if you're struggling against the miracles deck, I've found bringing in surgicals for stp and if you hit another hit their terminus. I also play 3 decay 2 push main so I only play 1 push in the board and play a snapcaster in place of your other push.
this is mine:Quote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
- 2/3 Decay maindeck
- 2/3 Daze maindeck otp, 0/1 Daze otd. 2 Force otp, 3/4 Force otd.
- 0/2 Daze main deck draw/play
I like keeping one copy of Daze against almost every deck on the draw---not including Vial decks or Maverick. When you're on the play against Delver decks you almost never play around Daze, so the upside is huge in the early turns. The impact falls off quick but it does pitch to Force or you can bin it with your own Lili.Quote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
But as everyone else has said, Daze goes back and forth from maindeck to sideboard a lot in games 2 and 3.
I'd like to see a Grafdigger's Cage in your sideboard, but I really value the card in the face of Elves//Storm//Reanimator.
Also, the double Invasive Surgery is a bit excessive. One copy was pretty stock when you could counter and extract Terminus, but playing more than one when Miracles isn't on top of the ladder is suspect. It's a good replacement for Flusterstorm if you don't want to drop $100, but Fluster is better at what sideboard counterspells are there for.
Hi everyone!
I'm writing 'cause I've been testing team america for a while, an almost "standard" list with 3-4 hymns MD.
Yes, Hymns MD on early game are brutal, but just for testing a different taste of Team America I get them out and gave Stifle an opportunity.
I found some list on tcdecks:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23713&iddeck=184895
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23627&iddeck=184028
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23559&iddeck=183419
And tried the last one.
I like a lot the change for the next reasons:
1) Instant Speed.
2) Disruption is very important for this deck. A big reason for hymn been good here is because it can hit 1 or 2 lands, but randomly. Stifle can hit this way by countering a fetch, losing the random variability: targeting what really hurts us.
3) Hymn on T2-3 hurts a lot, so against a U deck it will probably countered. So if I'm on T2, a countered hymn lets you with nothing else to do, not the case of stifle.
4) Personally I see stifle as a very versatile card at low cost. It cat hit fetches, wastelands, stoneforge, batterskull (that hurts us a lot I think), sneak, aether vial, any triggered ability from creatures entering the battlefield, Craterhoof Behemoth combo, and so on...
5) Blue count for FOW.
Opinions?
I don't think Team America is a very good Stifle deck. If you want to play Stifle, both Grixis and Canadian Thresh are better shells for the card. With Stifle, you are trying to end the game quickly so having access to Bolt is absolutely critical to getting the most value out of the card. The advantage of Team America is that you are a little slower, but you have bigger threats and can actually generate CA with Hymn and Lili. You play more lands so you can go more control/mid-range after Game 1. I don't think Stifle is a bad card, and maybe you can make it work in the BUG shell, but I think the best fit is elsewhere. This has also been beaten to death in the thread. I think the most instructive place to look is tournament results: the vast majority of the BUG Delver decks that get anywhere are running Hymn, not Stifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by cliqueMage
Went 3-0 at my local weekly last night with the standard list, my only change was swapping the Tombstalker for a Leovold. I played Elves (2-0), Dredge (2-1), and UR Burn (2-1). Umezawa's Jitte out of the board was a total house all night, that is definitely worth jamming against creature decks. If you can connect once, that ends the game.
One question I had: do you board out Liliana against burn decks? On the one hand, she feels a bit slow but on the other both of her abilities are relevant. Thoughts?
Leovold was only so-so all night. Tombstalker is not great in my meta because there is very little aggro it is like >50% combo and the rest is control. Vendilion Clique was the other thing I thought about, but the 1 toughness doesn't play nicely with Golgari Charm out of the board.
Stifle works best in a reactive delver deck, where your entire list is built around playing a 1 mana threat and holding up a 1 mana disruptive spell. RUG is the perfect example of this synergy. Grixis has moved to Stifle over Therapy for slightly similar reasons, but the main one is that Stifle helps them go under the manabase of bigger Leovold decks, instead of having a mid-range (ish) gameplan of Pyro + Probe + Therapy and strip away your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by cliqueMage
Stifle does see play in BUG, but the lists are very different. RUG ideally operates on 2 or 3 lands, but if you play Deathrite Shaman you're "forced" to allocate one of your lands (probably a black source) each turn to take advantage of the card as a threat. If we are holding up DRS activations as well as holding up Stifle for fetchlands or other things, casting Tarmogoyf is not going to be reliable without "turning off" DRS or Stifle for a turn.
BUG Delver is a proactive delver deck. Slam Tarmogoyf on turn 2, and make your opponent deal with it. Play Hymn, make them have an answer. If we have Daze backup, we are so massively ahead on tempo that games are "won" on turn 2. Imagine: T1 Sea + DRS. Opponent fetches a dual and Ponders. We untap, Waste their dual, exile it for B and cast Hymn. If they Force (as a way to choose which 2 they lose) and we Daze back, they're on 3 cards and no lands in play facing and active DRS.
This play happens a lot, and the upside of high-rolling on Hymn works best with the rest of the traditional BUG shell.
I've played a Stifle // Dark Confidant list, and really missed the (often unlikely but still possible) "I-win" factor of Hymning away their two best cards on a mull to 6.
- - -
On another note, after a brief hiatus from playing in paper, I 3-1'd the local LGS legacy night after a really rough start with the following list:
19 LANDS
4 Delta
4 Misty
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
13 Creatures
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
1 Tombstalker
26 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Fatal Push
4 Decay
4 Hymn
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 "Flex"
1 Spell Pierce
1 Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Fatal Push
2 Golgari Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Clique
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
- - -
R1: Maverick 0-2
I got rolled game one by keeping an okay 6, but my opponent plowed my DRS, played a Knight, and rotated for a Wasteland (over 3 turns) and I conceded. I cut a lot of countermagic and brought in the bottom 5 cards listed above, plus the third Push, just treating the matchup like a midrange mirror.
G2 is a bit closer, and I stabalize with an Ooze after decaying a Knight and a Zenith'd Leovold. He Zeniths for a Tireless Tracker that gets too big too fast, and I can't find removal or the means to out-race, and lose over a few turns of exalted beats and DRS staring at each other from across the board.
I kept a few copies of Daze on the play: if we got to G3, I would replace them with Thoughtseize on the draw.
Overall I'm inexperienced in this matchup I'd like to know if I should be treating this like a Modern GBx midrange grindfest or if this was off the mark.
R2: 4 Horseman 2-0
My opponent was goofing with a silly deck and didn't really have the intention of winning, but instead to make one of the Judges (his good friend) come over repeatedly with slow-play calls.
He never got too close to assembling anything relevant, and the DRS + Waste + Hymn play I outlined earlier happened in both our games. Honestly, I sideboarded incorrectly, assuming he was on some sort of Big Tezz deck (I saw a load of islands and u seas and grim monolith, and not much else) but I don't expect to play against this list ever again.
After our 2 games, we talked a bit about his list and why he wanted to play it, and we goldfished a win (after about 10 mins) waiting for the next round to start.
R3: Lands 2-0
I got the first game (which surprised me) by playing around Tranquil Thicket for about 4 turns, and not activating my DRS to remove the Loam from his yard. We both assembled a bunch of stuff slowly, and the turning point was finding 2 Wastelands to deal with his 2 Maze of Iths. The Goyf I had in play was about a 2 turn clock alongside the chip damage from DRS.
I don't like this game 1. Hymn, Push + Decay, and Daze are all pretty bad. Decay and Daze have some uses, but they're not at their best. I boarded out 8 cards: -4 Hymn, -2 Daze, -2 Push for Needle, Library, Ooze, Clique, Edict, 2 Surgical and Invasive. I should have also gotten rid of Pierce for a G Charm. Probably.
G2 I manage to Surgical a T2 Loam, and later Ponder into 3 lands which I kept on top. In the face of Wasteland and Port, additional lands are real good. A few turns later we're in a similar standoff to G1, except he has double Grove and Fire, Port, Tabernacle, Taiga, and 2 Mazes. My DRS and flipped Delver are effectively dead, and Mazes blank my 3/4 Goyf, and between Port and Tab I don't have mana on my turn. I play a Wasteland of my own and pass, and during his priority we have a complex stack that I should have written down:
It was something along the line of P Fire my DRS, activate Grove to return it, and then I Wasted his Maze. He Crop Rotates off of his dual saccing the Maze I targeted, and I Daze the rotate. He has 2 untapped lands (Tab and 2nd Maze) but no Riftstone Portal in the graveyard to actually make mana, and Daze gets there. The following few turns are me punching in with 2 creatures, one getting Mazed, and then P Fired on his next turn, and the solo Goyf eventually gets there when I play the 2nd Wastland in hand.
I felt pretty lucky in those 2 games, and my opponent is a very good Lands player. But I'll take it. Fun matchup.
R4: Moon Stompy 2-1
Game 1 I get chaliced off of 2 basic mountains T2, then a Moon T3. I purposely only show u seas and concede when a Chandra hits the board. I was really just looking for more info from his deck.
I cut my non-Decay removal for some more interaction, specifically Clique and a couple Thoughtseizes, and I think a Library for a Daze or Brainstorm.
Game 2 is a slow start from my opponent, landing a chalice on 1 when I have a DRS and Delver already in play. Delver flips, he takes 5 over the full turn phase, and wraths me with Fiery Confluence. I EOT Decay his Chalice, and play 2 more DRS on my main phase. He lands a Moon, and I cast a Goyf, which is conveniently a 4/5, off of one of my dorks. Pyrokenesis takes care of the shamans, but can't kill the Goyf and he does the damages.
G3 I keep a 6 of: 2 Fetch, DRS, Goyf, Spell Pierce, and Brainstorm. There's no Force and I'm pretty nervous, but keep it anyways. On the draw I would be ecstatic to keep this. He mulls to 3 and plays Tomb + Chalice T1. I play a Misty, and pass, he bricks on land, I draw a Force and crack both fetches for a 1/2 Goyf. His turn 3 is Land Blood Moon, but I have the answer and Goyf is now a respectable clock. Not much of a game when you mull to oblivion.
- - -
Anyways, we're getting a lot more Legacy players locally and that's great news. Of the ~15 people there tonight, there were two Maverick Players, and it looks like something I should prepare more for. Anyone have any insight into the matchup (in general)?
Also I think that Submerge looks decent here, maybe more so than Edict. My R1 opponent commented on how mediocre edict is against a deck that has a plethora of dorks to "protect" a payoff threat. I'll probably sleeve up a copy over the edict next week, and I'm still debating on double Flusterstorm over the Invasive Surgery.
Sorry for the essay: the post seemed shorter in my head until I typed everything out. :laugh:
My knowledge of playing Maverick comes primarily from jamming lots of RUG Delver against it. I played mostly against the straight G/W versions and much less against the newer three-color variants, so YMMV with my advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ixbpoqdxl
- Golgari Charm should always be brought in against them. It kills Mom (which shuts off your removal), Thalia, Scryb ranger (stops Delver), Dryad Arbor and kills off their mana dorks. It can also be used for a potential blow-out with the regenerate mode, as they tend to clog up the board forcing complicated blocking. Still the right thing most of the time will be to wipe out all of their X/1s.
- In addition to Edict, Needle and Clique are pretty bad against them. They have lots of activated abilities, but shutting off any one of them doesn't really save you. For example, Knight is still a huge beater even if it can't tutor lands, they don't always run Batterskull so it isn't as strong against SFM, etc.. Clique gets chumped by Scryb Ranger all day and taking a single card from them is not likely to make a huge impact given their threat density. I'm on the fence about Scavenging Ooze: I think they are better able to utilize that against you, so I'd rather have more removal here instead of another threat.
- Grafdigger's Cage might be worth bringing in to shut off their GSZ toolbox.
- Expect Choke post-board and use your Abrupt Decays/Fatal Pushes accordingly.
- They are pretty light on removal as they rely on out-classing your creatures in combat. You can get a surprising amount of mileage/damage out of an early Delver. Tombstalker is also an MVP in this MU. You are usually the beatdown in the MU since they have inevitability on their side given the size and utility of their creatures.
- I've had really good luck with Jitte against creature decks. It avoids Mom protection and generates an insane amount of value if you can connect with it multiple times.
- If enough Maverick is running around your format, you can dip into specialized powerful hate cards like Dread of Night or Virtue's Ruin. One-sided Wrath effects are pretty good.
I don't really get how you play around Thiket for 4 turns. Shouldn't the opp just dredge in his draw step?
I don't know the board state -- it's been too long. But he was purposely not dredging to play around something. From my perspective, I didn't exile the Loam because of Thicket, but I'm not sure why he didn't dredge in his draw like you said, since there's no point I can interact with it there.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
There must have been a reason though.
- - -
As for the Maverick feedback, thanks, and Jitte has done work for me in the past. I've stopped playing it (mostly) because I'm not playing TNN right now, but the two of these trivialize a lot of creature matchups. I'll certainly make some changes before next week.
Hi guys,
What do you think of this deck?
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15975&d=298305&f=LE
Its using 3 seas and 2 Leovolds. I'm going to test it a little bit. I dont play this archetype a lot, so if anyone has suggestions that d be great
Best deck to start in this format and smash some people faces. I would cut 1 Leovold and add the 4th Goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by pipet76
If your meta is really control-heavy you can add a second one.
You don't need the 4th USea, this is fine.
Hi
I've been wondering for ages how to sb with this deck:
1) against what do we use Jace for?
2) is winter good? Against what?
3) is 1 leovold md worth running?
If anybody has any sb advice or link to read for it I'd be great
Thanks
1)Jace can be very good in grindy, removal heavy match ups, where you know they'll probably have lots of creature removal. Also good in case they land something obnoxious like Ensaring Bridge. Or in a top-deck war, Jace is the absolute king.Quote:
Originally Posted by pipet76
2)I am guessing you mean Winter Orb? In that case, it's not as good as it was, since I think it was best versus Diving Top decks. Now, if you still want to use it, you can but it's not nearly as effective versus most decks now. If you still see mana-hungry decks, things that run lands like Cloudpost, it can still be OK, but there are probably better options now.
3)Yes, I think so, because you have 8 cantrips to find him when you need him and zero chance to have a second one dead in your hand.
It's kind of hard to give sideboard advice without knowing your list though.
Hi guys, I would also be interested in some general sideboard advice...
I played in an 8 man FNM last Friday and got paired against DnT round 1, Jund round 2 and Punishing Jund round 3... Sadly went 0-3 but learned a few things about what not to do.
Mainboard:
4 DRS
4 Delver
2 Goyf
2 TNN
2 Leovold
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Decay
2 Push
1 Liliana
20 Lands featuring 4 Wasteland and 6 Duals
Sideboard:
2 Needle
2 Surgical
1 Flusterstorm
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
1 JTMS
2 TS
1 Dismember
1 Dread of Night
Happyish with the DnT matchup, my main problem is I just need to RTFC... Made a mistake and conceded when I could have won :/
But Jund was another animal... First time playing against it. Quickly realised cutting counters was the way forward (they seen like terrible top decks), I brought in some grindy Midrange cards like JTMS, Library, Life, Surgical and Needle. Any other advice on the matchup.
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Well, one this list there are some curious/counter intuitive choices here, at least as far as the conventional wisdom (generally) of this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt_Lucifer
The 20 land versions generally run 7 duals, mainly due to Wastelands. In this case, the end result is probably going to be occasional issues with keeping double Black for Liliana, while not getting taken off Green. This is why the odd configuration of 4 Sea/1 Trop/2 Bayou exists, as it gives you the best chance to keep up double Black and still have Green. Of course, your list pulls the opposite direction at the same time, needing double Blue for TNN. While these are minor issues, it can come up from time to time, especially versus Death and Taxes, for example, where your mana might be severely constrained.
Second is the pairing of 20 lands with Stifle. Most 20 land versions, yours included (with the exception of Stifle) is very much a "tap-out" version, replete with 5 (!) three drops. Holding up a Blue, while seemingly inocculous sometimes, is not really in line with the rest of the list. For this reason, perhaps even more so in your version (owing to only 2 'Goyfs) you are rather low on turn 2 plays, if you didn't start with turn 1 Deathrite. For these reasons, 20 land, 3-drop versions usually run some number of Hymn to Tourach over something like Stifle.
There is the additional consideration that Stifle is (usually) best as a tempo card, often paired with Spell Pierce. Liliana and Leovold aren't really tempo cards though and only having 2 'Goyf can exacerbate this issue. At best, you can catch them once with a Stifle, but it probably won't really win the game and often, you won't really have the luxury of both advancing your game plan (Cantriping or committing threats) while simultaneously holding up Stifle. In this way, Stifle is actually hurting your own tempo, possibly even more than your opponent's.
I'd conservatively suggest that perhaps trying Hymn in place of Stifle might lead to a more streamlined play experiance, and 4 Seas/1 Trop/2 Bayou would also help in that case, even though it could plausibly make TNN a little harder to cast.
Jund is a bad matchup, for the most part. Largely, they are doing the same thing we are in the match-up, but usually better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt_Lucifer
One way to win is trying to prey on the variance they will have that we often don't, having 8 cantrips. In this way, Punishing Jund can sometimes be easier to beat, because their mana-base is worse and something like 2 Wastelands can sometimes basically end the game. Of course, other times they will just stomp you with more threats and more removal, because that is basically all that is in their deck.
Even with the variance, you simply aren't going to be the beat-down deck in the match-up. You might be able to get them with tempo, but given that our tempo game isn't very strong, that is unlikely. Instead, you will probably end up playing more of a control role, attempting to use a sweeper to catch back up and hopefully using a Planeswalker to win, probably with True-Name playing defense, or beating down after a board wipe. Again, it's a bad match-up though that you can expect to lose more often than win. Since it seems your meta seems to have a good deal, they do often struggle against Tombstalker, since they usually don't have much removal for it (possibly Lili) and nothing that can block it.
I normally run a Hymn based listed running 3/1/2 USea/Trop/Bayou as thats all I have access to atm - still quite new to the deck and havent got the optimal manabase. I recently acquired a second Trop and thought to give Stifle a try running 3/2/1 manabase... I came to a similar conclusion that my creature suite wasn't suited for a Stifle build. Will be going back to Hymn. Also went back yo 4 Goyfs and 1 of TNN/Leo/Tombstalker.
WRT the Jund matchup, its good to know I found another bad matchup :/ but at least I will get a lot of practice against it in my local scene. I think I was on the right path trying to go more controlling...
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Well, it is sort of good to hear that our collective 'wisdom' probably does have some merit. I don't think it would, considering your meta, be bad to be at 3 'Goyf/2 TNN/1 Leo/1 Tombstalker, but again, this does put some strain on the mana base since you don't have access to the 4th Sea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt_Lucifer
It's bad, but I wouldn't call it terrible. If you are going to settle into the control role, I'd also consider bringing in the Loam, because what you have over them is a bit more consistency via your cantrips. The game will go long most probably, if you are going to win, and so keeping them off Groves to hold off the Punishing Fires can be critical. In the same way, in a long game, you really don't want to be top-decking Daze or Force. I'd probably cut those and bring in anything can that kill a creature, plus Library and Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt_Lucifer
@Ixbpoqdxl (and anyone else running 19 lands) are you ever tempted to go up to 20 lands? I've only jammed in about 20 matches with this deck (with a recent 3-0 at my LGS versus BR Reanimator, UR Delver and Pox) without any mana problems. So have I just been on the lucky side of variance?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ixbpoqdxl
My list is very similar to yours, 19 lands, except I have +1 Leovold and -1 Decay.
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Short answer:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really?
I have a fast meta so I like 19. I'd think of playing 20 (or legitimately whatever Malimujo plays) if there was more Blade or Czech Pile lists around my area.
Long(er) answer:
I think it's just a personal playstyle. My list has changed a little bit since then (only one maindeck Lili now, and a Liliana, the Last Hope in the sideboard that's been over-preforming for me) but it's still pretty low on the curve. If it were possible, I'd be playing 19 and 1/2 lands without question.
The biggest upside to playing 20 is you can go heavier on planeswalkers with double JTMS in the sideboard and then you have a much better long game against some of the grindier matchups. As long as the rest of your deck is built to support it, I think both choices are pretty reasonable for land bases.
How many 3+ CMC cards are you playing in the 75 vs. how often do you brick on flipping Delvers vs. mana flood // mana screw are all things to think about.
Also, if something is working for you, keep going. :)
Ah, that's something I hadn't considered, 20 lands for Jace. Another subtle detail that's good to know ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ixbpoqdxl
Many thanks.
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I too believe that 19.5 lands would be the best, but since that is impossible, I err toward running 20 and siding out 1 land (usually either a Wasteland or a Bayou) if I am facing non-Wasteland decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really?
While it's less common now, this was kind of necessary in the days when you would see RUG Delver a lot more. Now, there are very few Stifles around. Still, I'd rather be at 20 lands versus D&T in any case. I don't think that 19 lands is wrong, per se, unless you have more than three 3 drops, but rather, 19 lands is risky. High risk, high rewards. However, some of my best results came with 19 lands, but only two 3 drops.
19 lands plus a gix probe should be equivalent to 19.5 landsQuote:
Originally Posted by H
I think I'd rather have a Strix ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Strix doesn't lower your card count as easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really?
I'm going down the 19.5 lands route by jamming 20 lands into a 61 card deck (just can't shake that Rock habit!) which gives me +1 Leo main deck (compared to Ix...xl's list) but then allowing 2x Jace in the SB. It's working well so far.
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I played against UB Reanimator during our local Legacy night, and boarded out all 4 Hymn's for postgames. After the round my opponent and I were talking about the games and sideboard stuff, and he mentioned that he liked keeping Hymn in for this match up. He's usually on Czech Pile, and said that he keeps a few because Reanimator is a critical mass combo, and the disruption outweighs the potential for a "free discard".
I've always sided out 4 Hymn's, since I've found that the card is best when any outcome is good. The variance of potentially helping the opponent here makes me nervous of playing it post-board. On the other hand, when you high-roll with Hymn, it wins for you.
Does anyone have any thoughts on where Hymn to Tourach belongs in this match up?
I don't know your list but i guess you want to side out:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ixbpoqdxl
- 2 Push
- 2-3 AD
- 1 Tombstalker
- 1-2 Hymn
So this makes around 7 slots and you will bring in stuff like:
+ 2 Thoughtseize
+ 2-3 Sort of Counterspell
+ 2 Extraction
+ 1 Flex
I'm not sold to board out Hymn completly, it is really good in combination with DRS or Extraction and like you said, it can hit really hard.
I see the argument to hit a creature if they have no way to put one in the grave...
hey, im playing food chain in paper but got into mtgo and since the deck is unplayable online imho (it takes several hundred clicks to combo off...) i got myself BUG Delver online. Had a pretty great start playing 4-1, 5-0 and 5-0 and wanted to share the list with you guys.
Creatures:14
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Spells:27
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
4 Ponder
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
Lands:19
2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
I think one of the most important rules is to not keep hands without a blue source. I mulled aggressively and got rewarded winning even matches were i went down to 5 cards against fair decks - but other than that the deck felt super smooth and even managed to outgrind decks like czech pile on multiple occasions. Also the deck has some decent game against the burn heavy decks with the 2 hydroblast in the sideboard plus Jitte and so on. Its also a great anwser if you expect blood moon or to fight young pyromancer while still on the stack.
Congrats -- your list looks pretty good dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by janchu88
Has 19 lands with four 3-drops been an issue so far? 19 v. 20 is repeat discussion here (I know) but I like hearing other people's thoughts on the matter.
Also, how do you like Null Rod currently? I've found the matchup that I really want it for is DnT (aside from LED decks), but I also want Jitte there and the dis-synergy is a little awkward. But sometimes it's worth it to lock out a good portion of a deck at the cost of invalidating only one of your own cards.