[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

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Originally Posted by emidln

In an effort to get away from this discussion, here is a play scenario. You are playing a game one against an unknown opponent and are on the play. You are playing Pulp_Fiction's hybrid list*. You keep this opening hand:

Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Misty Rainforest
Flooded Strand
Tundra
Dark Ritual
Doomsday

You lead Misty Rainforest->Island, Sensei's Divining Top. It resolves and you pass the turn. From here:

If your opponent leads with Taiga, Wild Nacatl, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a blue fetch, pass, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a Bayou, Thoughtseize, what is the most damaging card they can take and why?

Not all of these situations have finite endings. Some are just to see how you play with limited information while trying to improve your own position.


*for reference, pulp_fiction's hybrid maindeck in shorthand
9 u-fetch
2 sea
2 tundra
1 trop
1 island
4 petal
2 mox
4 rit
2 crit
4 led
4 bs
2 ponder
4 sdt
3 chant
3 silence
1 kgrip
4 mystical
3 infernal
1 adn
1 dd
1 med
1 igg
1 toa

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- If your opponent leads with Taiga, Wild Nacatl, what do you do?

He passes.
You draw for the turn, play Flooded Strand for Underground Sea.
Cast Dark Ritual -> Doomsday making the pile LED, LED, IGG, BS, ToA.
Cast BS getting LED, LED.
Play LED, LED crack'em both for UUUBBB.
Spin Top into IGG, play IGG for BS, LED, LED with UB floating.
Cast LED, LED, Brainstorm cracking LEDs in response for BBBBUUU.
Get BS with BS and cast it, get Top play it and spin it into ToA for 24 life loss.

This is not even the optimal pile, because this pile can be done with just 1 extra card in hand, you have 2. Pile by cheeseburger.


- If your opponent leads with a blue fetch, pass, what do you do?

Search for protection with Top and pray he isn't playing CB. But maybe trying for a turn 3 win you should probably draw for the turn, play the fetch and play Brainstorm. Then on his EOT you break the fetch and see the Top 3. That way you get to see the maximum amount of card until next turn. Is this right?

- If your opponent leads with a Bayou, Thoughtseize, what is the most damaging card they can take and why?

Doomsday, everything else is redudant. BS can be another Top, Dark Ritual can be another DR or a Cabal Ritual one turn slower. Taking the DD forces you into Ad Nauseam or Ill-Gotten Gains territory.

Against Zoo the pass the turn stack, against U I'd Top in the upkeep, because there are no cards in my hand I'd like to lose. Then probably EOT fetch and look again, both times for Chant/LED and otherwise extra Dark Ritual/Ponder/Mystical(to Chant).

I think Dark Ritual is the card in hand you need the most. There are only 5 cards in your deck to replace it (actually 9 with mystical, but that's not preferred) and DDay has 8. So I think the correct choice would be the Ritual, if you didn't have Top, Brainstorm.

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Originally Posted by NQN

@Nevamara: Do you really like Swarm? I´ve been hating him all the time. First of all, as a 2-off you won´t have him in your opening 7 most of the time.
Then you have to fetch Tropical against decks you don´t want it (merrows,Canadian) and he doesn´t even win against Canadian.
I love Carpet of Flowers in theorie as both decks basicaly have only 4 FoW to disrupt you but win via Manadenial+daze-effects. Carpet just stops it and fuels faster wins. I haven´t had time to test it (atm dredge seems sicker to me) but I already buyed 4 Carpets :)

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Sometimes Swarm is great, sometimes he's really awful that's why I cutted all of them; I wanted to add some back to my board just for merfolk and combo mirrors. Carpet didn't provide a single mana for me that tournament, cause my landstill opponent fetched for double Plateau and had Zuran Orb + Crucible + Wasteland G2.
I guess i wouldn't board Swarm in against CT, only against merfolk and when you fetch trop and play him your opponent must have the force.
I tested Carpet a little more and whenever you resolve one you win against any mana denial strategy.

Against blue I board something like this:

+4x Carpet
+1x Silence
+1x Pact of Negation
+1x Tropical Island
+2x Doomsday

-2x Cabal Rit
-3x Infernal Tutor
-2x Chrome Mox

That's pretty much the basic Plan, than add some number of K-Grips if you expect Canonist, CB, Arcane Laboratory etc, some sort of bounce or pact against Meddling Mage / Teeg.
I take out some number of Lotus Petals, but one, eventually Ad Nauseam and a single Ponder.
This depends largely on what I expect my opponent to play.

I won't contribute to the discussion about ponder vs. top. Just play whatever you like, but don't forget that there is a reason why top is banned in Extended and why many people believe it should be banned in legacy, too. I'd take 4 tops all day long.

Merry Christmas!

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Doomsday, everything else is redudant. BS can be another Top, Dark Ritual can be another DR or a Cabal Ritual one turn slower. Taking the DD forces you into Ad Nauseam or Ill-Gotten Gains territory.

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Depends on what's your opponent playing, but if I'm playing discard i'm mostly discarding Brainstorm in order to avoid opponent brainstorm in response to another discard effect.

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Originally Posted by johanessen

Depends on what's your opponent playing, but if I'm playing discard i'm mostly discarding Brainstorm in order to avoid opponent brainstorm in response to another discard effect.

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If you discard Brainstorm and the Opponent finds a LED with Top then you lose.

Look at top 3 on upkeep, find a LED and draw it on draw step.

Fetch for Underground Sea.
Cast Dark Ritual, LED, Doomsday.
Making the basic pile: Meditate/LED/LED/Petal/ToA
Crack LED for UUU, spin Top into Meditate. Cast Meditate drawing Top, LED, LED, Petal.
Cast everything, spin Top into Tendrils cracking LEDs for BBBBBB in response for style points.
Cast Tendrils for 18!!!

Crap... let's try again.

Wait did he Thoughtseize? LOL

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Originally Posted by emidln

If your opponent leads with Taiga, Wild Nacatl, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a blue fetch, pass, what do you do?
If your opponent leads with a Bayou, Thoughtseize, what is the most damaging card they can take and why?

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1. My opponent plays Zoo, i assume that he has no relevant disruption in game one, but a fast clock.
Draw, play Flooded Strand, play Brainstorm, pass
eot crack fetch for Underground Sea, use Top, to set up a turn 3 Doomsday kill.

2. Upkeep use Top (to look for protection), play Flooded Strand, pass.
Keep Brainstorm/Flooded Strand for better Card quality later.

3. The opponent should take Doomsday, because the Stoorm player would be able to win with one more mana. Because of that Brainstorm is definitly the wrong decision.
He should not take Dark ritual, because the Stormplayer could hide every relevant card from discard with Brainstorm and Top until he is able to kill.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alderon666

If you discard Brainstorm and the Opponent finds a LED with Top then you lose.

Look at top 3 on upkeep, find a LED and draw it on draw step.

Fetch for Underground Sea.
Cast Dark Ritual, LED, Doomsday.
Making the basic pile: Meditate/LED/LED/Petal/ToA
Crack LED for UUU, spin Top into Meditate. Cast Meditate drawing Top, LED, LED, Petal.
Cast everything, spin Top into Tendrils cracking LEDs for BBBBBB in response for style points.
Cast Tendrils for 18!!!

Crap... let's try again.

Wait did he Thoughtseize? LOL

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That's true, but if you don't find led and i follow the next turn with hymn you loose too.

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Originally Posted by Mr.Happy

1. My opponent plays Zoo, i assume that he has no relevant disruption in game one, but a fast clock.
Draw, play Flooded Strand, play Brainstorm, pass
eot crack fetch for Underground Sea, use Top, to set up a turn 3 Doomsday kill.

2. Upkeep use Top (to look for protection), play Flooded Strand, pass.
Keep Brainstorm/Flooded Strand for better Card quality later.

3. The opponent should take Doomsday, because the Stoorm player would be able to win with one more mana.

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1- I won on turn 2 against the Zoo, it's on the top of the page! Is there something wrong with my pile?

2- If you draw a card (1), cast Brainstorm (4), break fetch and look at top 3 wish STD (7) you looked at seven cards. If you activate the Top on upkeep you shouldn't break the fetch to play Brainstorm, because then you have no shuffling effect. So you're bound to only go off on turn 4.

3- Doomsday is much harder to replace than mana or the Brainstorm. Not taking Doomsday gives then a chance to win on the next turn, it's slim but it exists.

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Originally Posted by Mr.Happy

That's true, but if you don't find led and i follow the next turn with hymn you loose too.

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Loose is that argument.
They still have no clock, you have Top on the table and some lands. The game is far from over. If you find a Brainstorm on the top 3 it's even better.

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Originally Posted by alderon666

1- I won on turn 2 against the Zoo, it's on the top of the page! Is there something wrong with my pile?

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Brainstorm :
Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.

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Originally Posted by alderon666

He passes.
You draw for the turn, play Flooded Strand for Underground Sea.
Cast Dark Ritual -> Doomsday making the pile LED, LED, IGG, BS, ToA.
Cast BS getting LED, LED.

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Maybe I'm missing something, but what cards you put back on top?
During resolution of BS you can't activate LED to discard so ...
You can't :

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Spin Top into IGG

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Originally Posted by miro

Brainstorm :
Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.
Maybe I'm missing something, but what cards you put back on top?
During resolution of BS you can't activate LED to discard so ...
You can't :

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I didn't took the time to look closely at it, but you're probably putting on top the card that you drew for the turn and IGG.

That is correct.

You Brainstorm into LED/LED/IGG and put back one irrelevant card and IGG ontop of it. You then crack both LED's for BBBUUU and draw with Top to grab your IGG and cast it, getting back LED/LED/Brainstorm. At this point you have BU floating (after using BBUU to cast IGG), so you play both LEDs, Brainstorm, and then respond to Brainstorm by cracking both LEDs and floating BBBUUU(B) again. Brainstorm resolves (you will see Top, irrelevant card, Brainstorm), get Brainstorm, put back Top and irrelevant card. At this point you have BBBBUU Brainstorm again (BBBBU), arrange it so that Tendrils is on top, and grab the Top. Play Top (BBBB), draw Tendrils with it, and Tendrils.

This is pretty much what alderon wrote, but maybe this might help clear up some confusion.

^Thank you both.
Learning all the time.

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Originally Posted by Yesmilord

That is correct.

You Brainstorm into LED/LED/IGG and put back one irrelevant card and IGG ontop of it. You then crack both LED's for BBBUUU and draw with Top to grab your IGG and cast it, getting back LED/LED/Brainstorm. At this point you have BU floating (after using BBUU to cast IGG), so you play both LEDs, Brainstorm, and then respond to Brainstorm by cracking both LEDs and floating BBBUUU(B) again. Brainstorm resolves (you will see Top, irrelevant card, Brainstorm), get Brainstorm, put back Top and irrelevant card. At this point you have BBBBUU Brainstorm again (BBBBU), arrange it so that Tendrils is on top, and grab the Top. Play Top (BBBB), draw Tendrils with it, and Tendrils.

This is pretty much what alderon wrote, but maybe this might help clear up some confusion.

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Yeah, thanks. That's what I meant.

I didn't realize I had to draw up every step of the way in the freaking Storm thread.

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But do you want a different challenge? This one is mostly for fun, it's a corner case... but no impossible.

Consider you opponent is playing a white/green life link creature deck, is tapped out with no cards in hand, has you dead next turn and is at a whooping 44 life.

You are playing a Ad Nauseam/DD hybrid. You are at 11 life. Fully untapped on your first main phase.

Hand:
Tendrils of Agony, LED, Dark Ritual and Doomsday in hand

In play:
STD STD
Underground Sea/Scrubland

Top of your deck:
Krosan Grip, Tundra, Tropical Island

Can you ramp up to 21 storm + Tendrils?

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Originally Posted by Nemavera

I won't contribute to the discussion about ponder vs. top. Just play whatever you like, but don't forget that there is a reason why top is banned in Extended and why many people believe it should be banned in legacy, too. I'd take 4 tops all day long.

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Top was banned for logistical reasons, because it made tournaments take forever and as a result there were an obscene amount of draws for match results.

@alderon666
my count says you get 24 Storm + Tendrils. My proof is here. (Linked to my blog so as to not spoil the answer for those who don't want it.)

Edit: 28 storm + tendrils. cracking LEDs, no matter how impressive, does not generate storm.
Edit#2: I'm bad with this deck. 24 Storm + Tendrils. Thanks alderon666!

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Originally Posted by emidln

@alderon666
my count says you get 28 Storm + Tendrils. My proof is here. (Linked to my blog so as to not spoil the answer for those who don't want it.)

Edit: 28 storm + tendrils. cracking LEDs, no matter how impressive, does not generate storm.

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Didn't want to rain on your parade there, but when you make your second pile the SDT is in the top of your library, if you don't add it to your second pile, replacing a LED, you can't make SDT -> SDT (x9) on the second iteration.

Other than that that seems to be the optimal pile to build in this situation.

Even though this looks like a ludicrous situation it shows us how powerful is having Tendrils in hand. It allows you to build a pile that focuses just on mana an that helps on the Doomsday loop. The requirements are pretty standard other than the second SDT in play and Tendrils in hand, but it's just something to keep in mind when you opponent has an active Jitte with 6 counters or something.

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Didn't want to rain on your parade there, but when you make your second pile the SDT is in the top of your library, if you don't add it to your second pile, replacing a LED, you can't make SDT -> SDT (x9) on the second iteration.

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Ok, fixed the math there. It's 24 Storm + Tendrils so 50 lifeloss.

I saw this list and would like to discuss:

Code:

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1st - David Miñarro - TW: ANT

Maindeck:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:

4 Dark Confidant
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
2 Wipe Away

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I just know that this David Minarro is a good player so I don't want to bash this build prematurely, but although it looks consistent, I just can't see any reason to play without a splash.
What sense does that make? What advantages may it bring with it? Is it built to be more persistent against TempoThresh?

2 Ad Nauseam and 3 Thoughtseize looks risky to me. Isn't the lifeloss too much of an issue?

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Originally Posted by Nidd

2 Ad Nauseam and 3 Thoughtseize looks risky to me. Isn't the lifeloss too much of an issue?

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That's also a riddle to me.