kitchen finks would do the job betterQuote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
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kitchen finks would do the job betterQuote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Completely forgot that card existed. I'll take another look as those 2 BEB slots are pretty flexible and could be anything (2 of something else, or just use those 2 slots to flesh out other cards in SB).
I like the Spell Pierce - those should help out a bit. I think Finks might be too slow, and not useful in other matchups as well. Divert wouldn't be a bad inclusion against RDW, and also against counter-wars.
First let me say that Im new to the Source and I have only been playing "competitive" legacy for approximately a year with limited exposure to the different archtypes, so please forgive my ignorance :).
I currently play a b/u tempo homebrew very similar to TA. I have tried the deck with green (basically TA) but I often found tarmagoyf to be...well, disappointing. Is it just me or do others feel this way about the goyf? Obviously tombstalker is always amazing but I have been searching for a better alternative to goyf. Right now in addition to TS I MD 2x clique and have been testing 3x nighthawk which have been...decent, and sometimes stellar.
Anyway I am now considering investing in a set of phyrexian dreadnoughts, but I am not sure how they will do. Would some of you veteran TA players mind giving me some insight as to why TA doesn't use the dreadnought in addition to, or in place of green altogether? It seems the additional reliability of the manabase would be very welcomed. Is it because of cards like QPM, MMS etc. or is the inherent card disadvantage too much strain on the deck?
I have visited the dreadstalker thread and have also read through this entire thread but I would still value your input as it pertains to the current legacy environment. Thanks in advance.
Well, Stifle/Naught is a fine route to take, but you'd have to make room for that "fifth" Trickbind. And do a lot of folks run Mental Misstep where you play? Just ask yourself if what ever you are adding is worth the change in game plan, and actualy does something more than what Goyf does.
I agree on Goyf being clunky especially with the rise of JaceTMS. Should be remplaced with 3 Clique in a U/B shell. Stalker is enough most of the time against aggro since missteps futhered its protection against swords, combined with hymns. The new manabase would also be much better.
End no need for dreadnought maindeck (maybe in side)
Jandax: yes MMS is prevailent around here. I will have to think on the gameplan as you suggest jandax, although I havent been using goyf anyway (wife has my playset anyway). Dreadnought definitely does more than goyf though as it pwns everything short of progenitus/emrakul. Any experience using PD over goyf in TA?
Dr. Jones: have you tried playing TA with only 7 creatures as you suggest? Seems too lite even for TA.
Isn't this a different deck if you switch to strictly UB with Dreadnought?
I would Strongly advise against Dreadnoughts with the amount of mental missteps running around, they're even in zoo these days. Also deed is a very strong card these days, and I think is a part of this decks success, running U/B dreadnoughts opens you up to deed hitting your dreadnoughts and removes deed from your arsenal.
Honestly, if there were a creature equivalent to goyf in blue or black, I'd drop green in a hurry. Then you could consider splashing white for swords MD or red for blasts in the SB, or just stay two colors for a stronger mana base. The problem is that there simply isn't a better Goyf.. Tarmogoyf functions as somewhat of a pseudo-removal spell by being a lethal 'wall' until you're in a position to attack. (which is often right away, but there are some matchups where he plays defense for a little before swinging in).
I'd be overjoyed if Wizards printed something like this:
Nightstalker
3BB
Creature - Demon
Delve
5/5 (or even 4/5 maybe)
But until that time comes, running green is essential. Clique and Dreadnought don't do what we need to happen.
Having access to Green is nice out of the board for Deed and Grip (Landstill, UWx Control/Stoneblade decks, etc) too, let's not forget that.
Grip is pretty sick against Crucible, Batterskull, etc. Just thought I'd add my experience :)
Also, Team America tied with 43 Lands last night at my local Legacy. I played Maverick and lost to scrubs because I drew 8 lands in a row. In 4 games. So awkward.
-Matt
Having Tarmogoyf bounces by Jace sure sucks, but try that with a Tombstalker while you are at it. :p
Also, I think that green provides a lot more than just its big, dull, hallmark-ish beater. Sylvan Library and Maelstrom Pulse are, amongst others, two cards I wouldn't want to miss.
That said, if the deck wouldn't rely quite a bit on its graveyard to be able to cast Tombstalker, contemplating running W instead of G would probably have some merit. Jotun Grunt replaces Tarmogoyf well (esp. in what is a tempo deck), you gain access to the absolutely awesome Vindicate, and you also get some killer SB options as well.
They were Beta duals though right? I heard Beta cards like to clump together because back in the day people played MTG with greasy hands and no sleeves.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
:D
People forget how good Goyfs are when they can't cast anything. This is Goyf's function in this deck. It's the cheapest biggest easiest-to-cast dude that gets there because your opponents have little chance to play anything in the early game when you're Hymning and countering their plays.
I think people here (and in other threads I've been reading) are discounting the fact that sometimes going "turn 2 Goyf, turn 3 Goyf" can just win on the spot. Cutting Goyf takes this path to victory away. In a deck that already is on the bleeding edge of minimum threats, why are people so eager to reduce their threats or replace threats with threats that do not serve a similar function?
Loam can be pretty awesome in some matchups, too. Neverending Wastelands can be a fairly awesome way to rape your opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
People sure forget that metagames change and its counterproductive to not adapt. With the realease of NPH everybody and their mothers are running jaces, stoneforges, hiveminds and standstills... vs all of which goyf sucks and vendilion shines. I like goyf a lot but i observed that misstep and clique protect the big demon much better than before and if you know what you are doing your aggro matchup is not much affected by the swap. The manabase is a serious + also
Tarmogoyf are still very good. I've finished 2nd in a very small tournament (like 30 persons) and I gotta say that Goyf are still as good as they were.
Jaces ? Well, your goal is to not let them play it too easily...
You got : 4fow, daze to force them to play around. You got Stifle + wasteland to screw their mana, and 4 hymn to further screw their hand. Sure, if Jaces hits play, it WILL bounce everything you throw at him, except if you have 2 or more creature! And that is when Tarmogoyf shine again. Unless tombstalker, you don't need XXXXX cards in graveyard to be able to cast it.
Clique : yea, these are really good. I've played 1 maindeck and wanted to have more in certain match. But the deck is already very tight on its 60/61. Not sure what to cut...
Counter :
4 force
3-4 daze - They are still very good
4 Misstep : This card is just insane. You can use it as a counterspell, or you can use it as a very aggressive tempo tool (countering Brainstorm + Ponder can set back your opponent by a lot!)
4 stifle : Probably the weakess of all the counter, Stifle can still screw opponent heavily. In mid-late game, they can also serve different purposes, such as preventing the opponent from shuffling after a Brainstorm, or gaining some tempo by disabling an ability like equip.
I don't believe we can remove anything from the counter spell
-----
Creature
4 tarmogoyf
4 tombstalker
8 seems to be the minimal amount of threats. In my list, I've played a 61st card, the 1x Vendilion clique.
Draw
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
Again, 8 seems to be the right number. SDT/Sylvan Library are nice, but not sure if the deck can play them. I'm almost sure SDT is not the right card for this deck...
Removal :
4-5 something... (smother, ghasly demise, go for the throat, malestorm pulse...) These seem to be the weakest cards of the deck. But at the same time, its always nice to have an out against the creature. Its always a good thing to have counterspells to counter their removal, key cards...
I ran 2 smother, 1 (the new -5/-5 spell, name forgotten) and 1 Engineered explosives (was useless).
4 seems to be the minimum of removal. At least, for me, I will never go below 4. You need outs against their creatures.
the new -5/-5 is called dismember (if i remember correctly)
that aside, i am playing 4 brainstorm, 3 ponder and 1-2 sylvan lybrarys. the librarys help a lot later in the game, i just think they are awesome
SDT on the other side would really not be the right card for this deck, even though i love that card soooooo much since it can turn games around, it would be way to much mana needed for TA to use that card right
and as removal i am running 2 Go for the Throat, 2 maelstrom puls, 1 dismember. the maelstrom pulse are extra outs against jace, and can possibly be a 2 for 1, which i like a lot
There's nothing more satisfying than seeing my opponent smugly toss his Jace on the table, -1 to bounce my Goyf, only for me to Stifle the activated ability, then watch my opponent taste his salty tears.
I run 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 4 Mental Misstep, 4 Stifle + 4 Wasteland, and 4 Hymn to Tourach. If my opponent is resolving 4cc spells versus me, something is wrong.