[DTW] Bant Survival

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@ Dryad arbor, its good in Chapin survival because it sacks to cabal therapy when you fetch it out. In bant, fetching it out does nothing, because it doesn't generate any mana the turn it comes down (summoning sickness). Sure it pitches to survival, but you really don't want to be drawing the dryad arbor.

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But if your using top and brainstorms this is easily fixable. I am fairly new to legacy but it just seems nice to be able to sneak in a blocker instead of sacrificing a noble heirarch to keep you threatening.

Sacrificing an early land drop against aggro decks seems terrible, honestly.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

I just realised you played 16 blue cards MD which is pretty low for FOW. Did you have any problems at any point because of that? I'll work on finding a gilded drake, your argument is pretty solid IMO. I don't see as much show and tell, so maybe I can lucksack my way with just Sower. I've loved drawing sower and casting it. I agree that MD Jace has been a bit slow for me too. However he's been ok, because you have enough dudes to hide Jace behind and he usually lives at least 2-3 turns. I really really like the 3 tops md. I think I'll just straight 3 tops for 3 ponders, which brings my blue count down to 17, but I think I can live with it.

@ Dryad arbor, its good in Chapin survival because it sacks to cabal therapy when you fetch it out. In bant, fetching it out does nothing, because it doesn't generate any mana the turn it comes down (summoning sickness). Sure it pitches to survival, but you really don't want to be drawing the dryad arbor.

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Yeah, my MD does run a relatively lower number of blue cards for FoW. However, I haven't really had it be that much of a problem. The only time it's ever really problematic is if you have something you absolutely have to stop on T1. Against most decks, even against combo, I haven't found it to be the case. Secondly, if you have an active Survival, you can just leave a G open and turn Squee into a Rhox War Monk to pitch to FoW. Post-board against Combo, you're likely boarding out the 4x Swords and bringing the 4x Counterbalance, which will help increase the blue card count.

I used to run a second MD Meddling Mage instead of the second basic Forest, but I really liked the second basic Forest. Against decks that run Wasteland, getting the double basic Forest is really helpful to be able to activate Survival and still be able to cast a green creature on the same turn.

Regarding Gilded Drake: In my experience, the only time it hasn't been good is if you're getting beaten down and you have to steal a bigger creature (like a Knight of the Reliquary or Terravore) to survive, but are still very low on life and don't have an answer to the Drake. Even then, Sower is only better if they don't have a removal spell for it. Trading with a Dark Confidant on T2 is a really powerful play that Sower just can't do.

Regarding Dryad Arbor: I've tested it in the NO/Progenitus version, but haven't really been sold on it outside of it. The problem is that if you consider it taking up a non-Land slot in your deck, there are just so many better creatures to run. If you have it take up a Land slot, again, most of the time you would rather have a dual land, fetch land, or basic land with it. The only time I can really see it being useful is if you absolutely have to have a chump blocker and you don't have anything other than a land. If you're in that situation though, I think you're pretty screwed anyways.

I've just started building this, or something similar and wanted to know the reasoning behind no E-Tutor/fauna shaman. I understand that the deck should function with out survival. But I would think you would want to maximize you chances of getting that engine working.
That being said it feels like a really intuitive list and I love it.

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Originally Posted by median

I've just started building this, or something similar and wanted to know the reasoning behind no E-Tutor/fauna shaman. I understand that the deck should function with out survival. But I would think you would want to maximize you chances of getting that engine working.
That being said it feels like a really intuitive list and I love it.

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I would run more cantrips before Fauna Shaman or Enlightened Tutor. Shaman is just straight up bad and we don't rely on Survival enough to warrant him. Chapins list is much more combo oriented and Fauna Shaman can at least get it done, but it is just far too slow. Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage which isn't necessarily bad since it goes and gets your engine, but it becomes dead late. It does offer a nice sideboard strategy but it can go in the board if you really want that.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

I would run more cantrips before Fauna Shaman or Enlightened Tutor. Shaman is just straight up bad and we don't rely on Survival enough to warrant him. Chapins list is much more combo oriented and Fauna Shaman can at least get it done, but it is just far too slow. Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage which isn't necessarily bad since it goes and gets your engine, but it becomes dead late. It does offer a nice sideboard strategy but it can go in the board if you really want that.

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Pretty much my feelings on this as well.

Regarding Fauna Shaman: I was very enamored of the idea of 8 Survival effects, but in my testing, it turned out just to be way too slow. Say you drop it on T2. You then have to wait until T3 to fetch up Squee, T4 to fetch up a Goyf or RWM. It also tends to lower your blue card count as well. The only real benefit to it is that if you draw multiples it's not a dead card in your hand.

Regarding Enlightened Tutor: I'm not a huge fan of it because as Jak pointed out, it's card disadvantage. Again, it also lowers the blue card count in the deck.

Even running fauna shaman w/ aether vial costs you a turn. And a valuble cantrip slot.

Fauna Shaman is just not that great in Legacy, at all. Even in that build Chapin was rocking at the GP, I watched Fauna Shaman cost him the match against Saito.

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Originally Posted by majikal

Fauna Shaman is just not that great in Legacy, at all. Even in that build Chapin was rocking at the GP, I watched Fauna Shaman cost him the match against Saito.

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+1. I loved that game. Fauna Shaman is garbage. I believe with the 2 activations Chapin got to use on the Shaman he grabbed a Squee on one turn and then a bone shredder. Then he died to like 5 merfolk bashing him every turn.

I don't see any lists using standstill. And was curious as to why not.

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Originally Posted by StoicAngel

I don't see any lists using standstill. And was curious as to why not.

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Are you being serious? This deck has nothing with which to abuse Standstill. You need too much green mana to play any manlands, and if you've already got board advantage, which is the only time Standstill is ever good, you are already in a position to win with this deck.

There is already an incredible amount of inevitability in the deck and Standstill just doesn't add anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

+1. I loved that game. Fauna Shaman is garbage. I believe with the 2 activations Chapin got to use on the Shaman he grabbed a Squee on one turn and then a bone shredder. Then he died to like 5 merfolk bashing him every turn.

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Yeah that clearly proves how bad he is. Other garbage cards are probably Bayou, Savannah and Aether Vial because they also didnt prevent him from getting bashed by 5 Merfolk.

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Originally Posted by Tao

Yeah that clearly proves how bad he is. Other garbage cards are probably Bayou, Savannah and Aether Vial because they also didnt prevent him from getting bashed by 5 Merfolk.

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When you spend 4 mana over three turns and still get blown out, you really need to re-evaluate him.

What card would have prevented him from getting blown out there?

He just made some wrong choices as in does he really got the time to get this squee?

I think fauna shaman is pretty great in that kind of deck and I believe the deck is pretty strong.

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Originally Posted by Tao

What card would have prevented him from getting blown out there?

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Tarmogoyf would probably have been a decent start. Oops, he was running Fauna Shaman instead.

Lol, when I looked at the list, I was wow a survival deck with fauna! Finally a use for my Pretty Japanese Foil Fauna Shaman. Then I went through the list and saw a whole load of terrible 1 offs. -_- And... NO GOYFS???!!, no STP!!! BLASPHEMY!!. Chapin's deck is very combo oriented. I think outside of the surprise/rogue factor, it is very subpar. After this tournament I wouldn't be surprised if it just disappeared. Having said that, I'm working of a fauna shaman survival list, but a non blue one with vial, survival, fauna etc but with goyfs, STP. It plays like a traditional vial rock aggro deck with fauna/survival for gas. Fauna -> squee -> dude is terrible. A good player will see fauna, wait for you to fetch squee, then plow your fauna after you past priority... -_- That's pretty devastating. However, I can see fauna being very good as a 2/2 bear who occasionally wins the game by going -> fauna into magus of the moon, fauna-> handy shriekmaw, -> pitch terrible mana bear for bob. fauna into -> pridemage against moat. I think a more streamlined version could work and non of that emrakul crap. I find emrakul + fauna waaay too slow. It takes, 3 untaps! 1 fetch emrakul, 2 fetch retainers, 3 pitch emrakul... Iona is slightly better with just 2 untaps but still slow.

-I have a list on star city for fauna vial if you wish to post comments on it there. Mine is starting to look like fauna into painters servent. With goblin welders. But I really don't want to discuss it on this site till sword of body and mind comes out. Since it does run stoneforge mystics.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

A good player will see fauna, wait for you to fetch squee, then plow your fauna after you past priority... -_- That's pretty devastating.

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If you suspect removal, just dont run into it like that. Discard a bad creature and get a good one. Another great way to punish these players is to discard Vengevine into Fauna Shaman (of course only in Vengevine lists).

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Originally Posted by Tao

If you suspect removal, just dont run into it like that. Discard a bad creature and get a good one. Another great way to punish these players is to discard Vengevine into Fauna Shaman (of course only in Vengevine lists).

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You know what would be even better? Not running bad creatures in the first place.