[Deck] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Darkgobs

1/ Interesting post!


2/ Also, it makes me wonder what Rb lists looks like today. I used to play 4 Cabal Therapy alongside with 3-4 MWM, and it felt great. Then I guess we want some Earing Squad in the SB. It's always been a question between Rb or Rw lists when we want weapons to beat combo, aka Thalia vs. Discard / Earing. I really like the black splash but 1) it is a bit harder to play the deck (because of Therapy), and 2) Thalia works really well with our Vial/Waste/Port package. Do you guys have any post-ban though about the pro/con of Rb/Rw lists?

sidenote: if combo wasn't a thing, I would play a mono-R list 24/7... so imho when we splash, it implies that we still want some significant % against combo.

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Thalia is too slow for dedicated combo hate. Our sideboard hate needs to come down turn 1, because we need to win a sideboard game on the draw. Discard is the most catch-all hate available, which is why I favor it, along with a graveyard hate package. This is similar to why I like 2-3 chalice of the void... It's playable turn 1 to combat the most explosive openings, alongside a lackey or vial... But can also be played against delver and elves, or storm for 1 with great success.

Are you on winstigator? I don't have the ability to turn 1 chalice...

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Are you on winstigator? I don't have the ability to turn 1 chalice...

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I think he means vs like Belcher and Storm you can just play it for 0

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

I think he means vs like Belcher and Storm you can just play it for 0

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Oh. I was hoping for something better.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Are you on winstigator? I don't have the ability to turn 1 chalice...

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You can play it for zero, which is fairly reliable for stopping very fast kills. I have been on winstigator, but I find that it's often "cabal therapy you, then decide whether to wait a turn or chalice on zero. Turning off lotus petal and LED makes storm a full turn slower at least. THis is especially true if they're trying to go through infernal tutor and/or Ad Nauseum, when they're often overloaded on cards in hand. Many times they have to draw straight to their tendrils if they can't LED their hand away, which can be backbreaking.

The real reason I like chalice is that it's a good hate card, which can be played turn one... but it's also great against a wide range of delver etc. decks. Even turbo-depths plays something like 20 1-drops, and on the play we can really cut into their tutor package.

Storm
Elves
Reanimator
Delver
Burn
Sneak+Show/Omni
Belcher
Infect

All of these decks are hit very hard by chalice= 1, and some of them are gimped by X=0 as well.

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Originally Posted by egoblinsw

You can play it for zero, which is fairly reliable for stopping very fast kills. I have been on winstigator, but I find that it's often "cabal therapy you, then decide whether to wait a turn or chalice on zero. Turning off lotus petal and LED makes storm a full turn slower at least. THis is especially true if they're trying to go through infernal tutor and/or Ad Nauseum, when they're often overloaded on cards in hand. Many times they have to draw straight to their tendrils if they can't LED their hand away, which can be backbreaking.

The real reason I like chalice is that it's a good hate card, which can be played turn one... but it's also great against a wide range of delver etc. decks. Even turbo-depths plays something like 20 1-drops, and on the play we can really cut into their tutor package.

Storm
Elves
Reanimator
Delver
Burn
Sneak+Show/Omni
Belcher
Infect

All of these decks are hit very hard by chalice= 1, and some of them are gimped by X=0 as well.

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With the exception of Delver and i think Burn, a lot of those decks can still win through a chalice on 1. They need the right hand, but it's possible...gimped, sure but chalice on 1 is not an auto win. I run a 3x3 split of Chalice and Thorn, I've had several players tell me after matches how much they hate Thorn and show me their hand that a chalice wouldn't have saved me from.

finally we are back ;)

just went 4-0-0 at a local event with 15 people.

Games:
2-0 against Infect
2-1 against DnT (i lost the first game after mulligan to 3)
2-0 against Miracles
2-1 against Tezzerator

My list:

23 Lands
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Blood Crypt (or second Badlands)
4 Mountain

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector

3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Chieftain

4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss (to be replaced by Goblin Trashmaster)
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tarfire

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Warren Weirding
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Earwig Squad
1 Tuktuk Scrapper (not needed anymore)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction

for the future i will try cabal therapy in the sidebaord and a mainboard trashmaster instead of krenko.

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Originally Posted by GAMEster52

(i lost the first game after mulligan to 3)

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Pro tip, don't do that.


Good to hear about us doing well again. I'm seeing more of that, and it makes me smile.

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Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard

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Originally Posted by GAMEster52

(i lost the first game after mulligan to 3)

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Pro tip, don't do that.


Good to hear about us doing well again. I'm seeing more of that, and it makes me smile.

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what do you think is the right action? i am really interested and honestly have to say i am not sure... by the way i was on the play. this was the situation:
my first hand was very clunky with no colored mana and no vial so i took a mulligan, with 6 cards i hit no land (also no vial if i remember correct), with 5 cards i had no land (no vial again).

do you just stop here to mulligan? and hope that you get there with scrying? and would have you kept the hand with the five cards, no land but a vial?

so the question for all: what are you doing in these rare situations?

in my opinion its totally ok to keep hand where you re flooded and have wastes and ports, well its not only ok, normally these play out extremly strong. but when screwed where to stop?

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Originally Posted by GAMEster52

what do you think is the right action? i am really interested and honestly have to say i am not sure... by the way i was on the play. this was the situation:
my first hand was very clunky with no colored mana and no vial so i took a mulligan, with 6 cards i hit no land (also no vial if i remember correct), with 5 cards i had no land (no vial again).

do you just stop here to mulligan? and hope that you get there with scrying? and would have you kept the hand with the five cards, no land but a vial?

so the question for all: what are you doing in these rare situations?

in my opinion its totally ok to keep hand where you re flooded and have wastes and ports, well its not only ok, normally these play out extremly strong. but when screwed where to stop?

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I've never mull'd below 4 with any deck, and I don't think I ever would, regardless of the hand. I would probably keep a 5 card hand with a Vial and no land, and scry any non-land to bottom; the odds of winning on a mull below 5 is extremely low.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I've never mull'd below 4 with any deck, and I don't think I ever would, regardless of the hand. I would probably keep a 5 card hand with a Vial and no land, and scry any non-land to bottom; the odds of winning on a mull below 5 is extremely low.

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The only match-up I'll mull below 4 is Belcher. Done it once, mulled to one, got Chalice, and they couldn't beat it. After that it feels bad to keep a no lander with 3 cards, but you are more likely to win with 4 cards and topdecking two lands, than you are 3 cards 1 land, simply due to card advantage. That 3 card hand may have lands and spells, but your opponent, assuming all things are equal, will just push you over in that case. 4 cards is A LOT more than 3. Sucks to lose to not playing a land, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the right decision.

Is there a dedicated Food Chain goblins thread?

We got goblins, then food chain, then squee chain, which is NOT goblins.

Long time (I mean, 10 years+) lurker, first time posting because I'm so excited to be able to play my old friend goblin lackey again.

Went 4-0 last night at a local event with 18 players.

2-1 against show and tell enter the infinite storm (I know...)
2-0 against eldrazi
2-0 against jeskai stoneblade
2-0 against jeskai stoneblade (with splinter twin combo)

Meta seems super all over the place right now not sure how it will shake out.

My list is very hastily thrown together, but I've liked how it has performed so far. I have some changes I want to make that I'll get to after the list.

4 lackey
4 matron
4 warcheif
4 ringleader
4 piledriver
2 Warren instigator
2 gempalm
1 krenko
1 Kiki
1 sgc
1 settler
1 cheiftain
1 stingscourger
1 tuktuk
1 sparksmith

4 vial
2 tarfire

4 wasteland
4 cavern
3 port
11 mountain

SB
3 thorn
2 needle
2 surgical
1 faerie macabre
1 chainwhirler
1 sharpshooter
2 blood moon
1 magus of the Moon
1 pyrokinesis
1 tuktuk

I think trashmaster is obviously a better card than tuktuk and I think both tuktuks are clean swaps for it as soon as it becomes legal friday.

I think I want another stingscourger in the board. Probably that gets swapped out for chainwhirler, which moves to the main to replace sparksmith, which I've been unimpressed with.

I think a tarfire can pretty easily become the third gempalm. Tarfire is garbage.

I'm pretty happy with the decision to include no MWM. I think the card is bad and it seemed super dorky every time I cast it in testing. I suspect its better in lists with more cheiftains and skirk prospector, it obviously gets a bump in utility with the inclusion of trashmaster.

Re earlier discussions:
A) it has been my experience that this deck actually mulligan's really well. A three card hand of cavern lackey any big thing (though preferably ringleader) is already better than most 4 or 5 card hands. I have been mulliganing pretty aggressively with the deck for hands with a vial or a lackey (consistent with Allen Wu's article over on CFB about his theory on mulligans (https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...lligan-enough/) and I have been very happy with that plan. A five card hand with land vial and a ringleader is just so much better than a 6 card hand without those things that the games you lose by mulling to oblivion and doing nothing are easily counteracted by the games you win by having your best openers more often.

B) Re the list at the top of the page I'm curious as to the choice to only play 3 cavern. I think its the third most important card to the deck (after vial and ringleader) and I don't see how it could possibly be right to play less than 4. Obviously money might be an issue or theres something I'm not thinking about so I'm interested to hear your perspective.

C) This deck could be really good if the meta shapes out in the right way, and it could be bad if it does not. If the meta shifts dramatically to storm and RUG delver (other goyf decks) goblins becomes poorly positioned, but if the meta becomes stoneforge decks I think we're in legitimately very good shape. And my hope is that the meta settles somewhere around where it was before DRS where legacy once again returns to being a format impossible to metagame, which would make goblins totally defensible all the time.

Interested in people's thoughts.

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Originally Posted by tsq11

Re earlier discussions:
A) it has been my experience that this deck actually mulligan's really well. A three card hand of cavern lackey any big thing (though preferably ringleader) is already better than most 4 or 5 card hands. I have been mulliganing pretty aggressively with the deck for hands with a vial or a lackey (consistent with Allen Wu's article over on CFB about his theory on mulligans (https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...lligan-enough/) and I have been very happy with that plan. A five card hand with land vial and a ringleader is just so much better than a 6 card hand without those things that the games you lose by mulling to oblivion and doing nothing are easily counteracted by the games you win by having your best openers more often.

B) Re the list at the top of the page I'm curious as to the choice to only play 3 cavern. I think its the third most important card to the deck (after vial and ringleader) and I don't see how it could possibly be right to play less than 4. Obviously money might be an issue or theres something I'm not thinking about so I'm interested to hear your perspective.

C) This deck could be really good if the meta shapes out in the right way, and it could be bad if it does not. If the meta shifts dramatically to storm and RUG delver (other goyf decks) goblins becomes poorly positioned, but if the meta becomes stoneforge decks I think we're in legitimately very good shape. And my hope is that the meta settles somewhere around where it was before DRS where legacy once again returns to being a format impossible to metagame, which would make goblins totally defensible all the time.

Interested in people's thoughts.

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Congrats, I like your list.

I didn't see the 3x Cave list...that is pretty nuts since that card will single handedly win games against blue decks. For whatever reason, A LOT of players actually think it's correct to keep in their counters now against us, and I get pretty frustrated at this when I don't have a cavern to punish them...like what are they thinking, a cavern or resolved vial just blanks all that. RUG i understand since they play so many maindeck but i'm unsure why they are doing this.

I think the meta will be back to being balanced...I hope elves kind of dies off so engineered plague doesn't come back. I think the stoneblade variants and other three color U variants will be a thing, which will always make this deck playable.

I understand (and even think its correct to do) leaving in some number of forces against goblins, 2 being maybe the right number, just because countering the vial on turn one can be super important to the game. If that vial resolves they're pretty much zero percent to win the game.

But having other counterspells in (I've had people leave pierce in against me...which...lol) seems pretty loose.

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Originally Posted by Bichon_Blitz

Congrats, I like your list.

I didn't see the 3x Cave list...that is pretty nuts since that card will single handedly win games against blue decks. For whatever reason, A LOT of players actually think it's correct to keep in their counters now against us, and I get pretty frustrated at this when I don't have a cavern to punish them...like what are they thinking, a cavern or resolved vial just blanks all that. RUG i understand since they play so many maindeck but i'm unsure why they are doing this.

I think the meta will be back to being balanced...I hope elves kind of dies off so engineered plague doesn't come back. I think the stoneblade variants and other three color U variants will be a thing, which will always make this deck playable.

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I would assume it is just for budget reasons. I usually dont even comment on >4 caverns in a list because it was for budget reasons the first 10 times I did.

To anyone new reading this; caverns will win you more games than you know to mucked FoWs. Playtest with 4 with friends and let them show you those tasty blue spells afterwards.

This is my current list.

Creature (32)
4x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Goblin Chainwhirler
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
3x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Goblin Warchief
1x Mogg Fanatic
3x Mogg War Marshal
1x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Stingscourger
1x Goblin Trashmaster

Land (23)
4x Cavern of Souls
12x Mountain
3x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
Instant (1)
1x Tarfire

Artifact (4)
4x Aether Vial

Sideboard (15)
1x Damping Sphere
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pithing Needle
2x Pyroblast
2x Pyrokinesis
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Goblin Trashmaster

I am trying a Mogg Fanatic in place of a second Tarfire. It being a goblin helps a lot and I think I will keep it like this until I keep needing another point of damage.

Chainwhirler is kind of a pet card to me. It is great in the deck but it should probably be at 1 instead of 2. I have had great success with him but that is probably just confirmation bias after drawing him a few times.

I know many people disagree but I am in the 3-4 piledriver boat. This card is usually either a free win, makes the board lethal or eats removal. Obviously, I don't want to play a card to eat removal spells but the other 2 uses of him out weighs it by a huge margin imo. I would play a 4th before moving it down to 2.

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Originally Posted by tsq11

B) Re the list at the top of the page I'm curious as to the choice to only play 3 cavern. I think its the third most important card to the deck (after vial and ringleader) and I don't see how it could possibly be right to play less than 4. Obviously money might be an issue or theres something I'm not thinking about so I'm interested to hear your perspective.

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the mainreason is to have one more red source for incinerator/tarfire. i never would cut a port or waste and in my opinion with three cavern matchups against blue decks are still very favorable for us. anyhow i agree that four might be the better choice. but i often played four and i hate it when i cast lackey from cavern and cant cycle incinerator on turn two... this seems like a very thin decision and maybe depends on expected meta or personal taste. that was the reason i am trying three now for a while with 23 lands total.

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Originally Posted by GAMEster52

the mainreason is to have one more red source for incinerator/tarfire. i never would cut a port or waste and in my opinion with three cavern matchups against blue decks are still very favorable for us. anyhow i agree that four might be the better choice. but i often played four and i hate it when i cast lackey from cavern and cant cycle incinerator on turn two... this seems like a very thin decision and maybe depends on expected meta or personal taste. that was the reason i am trying three now for a while with 23 lands total.

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I replaced a Tarfire with a Mogg Fanatic to make up for that. I would love to fit in a 4th port but I do not want to drop to <16 red sources, cut a wasteland, or go up to 24 lands.

Plus, I'm already sad when I draw my tarfire, why not pile on the self loathing by not being able to cast it sometimes :tongue:

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Discussion:

Chainwhirler vs Sharpshooter in main

Chainwhirler
Impact turn it was played
Great at blocking and attacking, can attack into most things that arent goyf or angler
Can hit PW
3 red means you need to either lackey or vial it in (most of the time)

Sharpshooter
No immediate impact
Very low and very high ceilings depending on mu
Can this hit a pw? (idk sorry im trash)
ez casting cost
can hit face and grind out wins

I would like more opinions. I like chainwhirler mainly because he is an absolute unit (not a 1/1) and is a surprise while he is still fresh and new. I'd love to hear the more experienced player's opinion on it.

Also I would love to talk about why I am wrong in playing 4 caverns, 3 ports, 4 wastes, and 12 mountains. I play frequently but only at the FNM level so I am always open to other opinions.

I play both Chainwhirler and Sharpshooter/Prospector...prospector actually makes more sense in a Chainwhirler list for more R mana. I think this is gonna be correct given how creature heavy the format is going to be with fair decks.

EDIT: yes, Sharpshooter can ping planeswalkers. He reads "any target" now. http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=376350

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Originally Posted by Bichon_Blitz

I play both Chainwhirler and Sharpshooter/Prospector...prospector actually makes more sense in a Chainwhirler list for more R mana. I think this is gonna be correct given how creature heavy the format is going to be with fair decks.

EDIT: yes, Sharpshooter can ping planeswalkers. He reads "any target" now. http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=376350

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I play a prospector with that in mind. Chainwhirler off a lackey can give your opponent shit blocks and an instant speed board is pretty great. Also, from the outside looking in, sharpshooter doesnt seem too great to kill a pw. Chainwhirler is far and above better for pw imo. 1 dmg and then a 3/3 first strike to threaten it with.