[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Mental

Tinkerer is bad. Half the cards you want to kill with it (read: Jitte, SOFI) will kill it first. Play TSH, and don't play Banneret. It makes TSH bad, it dies to everything, and it makes your manabase sucky, and if you aren't cutting lands for it, you should be playing something better, like more SGC/Weirdings. If you want to play a Wort, fine, but I think it's unnecessary also. I'd play -2 Frogtosser, -2 Mountain, -1 Gempalm Incinerator, +1 Weirdings, + 1 Tin Street Hooligan, +1 SGC/Wort, +2 Taiga. You should run fine on 22 Lands, without Frogtosser.

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Ok, first of all i'm sorry but I didn't change the number next to "Lands". In the list I posted I only have 21.

I'm not sure why you think Tinkerer is so bad. He becomes better with either Warchief and/or Frogtosser out where TSH just becomes completely useless. He can handle multiple artifacts in some cases (Sensei's, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Dreadnought etc etc). And what if he dies to a couple of artifacts aswell, he still gets rid of 1 artifact which is what TSH also do. Sure TSH remains on the board and that's better but removing the artifact is the reason you run them and they both take care of 1 with Tinkerer having the possibility of handling multiples.

The only real advantage that TSH has is the fact that it removes an artifact as soon as it gets out. But with a Warchief out, this is true for Tinkerer aswell and you don't need any green mana for him unlike with TSH.

Don't get me wrong. I see the benefits of TSH. But right now, I see more of them with Tinkerer.

What artifacts are you afraid of anyway? If you're thinking Jitte/SoFI, your Warchief will most probably die, giving you the chance to use TSH's ability. And without a Warchief, Tinkerer will do nothing against those. The only other artifact off the top of my head which Tinkerer does a better job against than TSH would be Ensnaring Bridge.

The reason Tinkerer is so bad is because your removal shouldn't be able to be defeated by removal. Especially if that removal is a sofi or a jitte.
-Slay

Hi. I fired up MWS again yesterday and started playing a bit with gobs again... and I was thinking about playing it in an upcoming local tourney.
For budget reasons, I'd like to stick to mono red though.. is it still viable?

I was thinking about a list like this:

15x Mountain
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port

4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

4x Aether Vial

SB:
4x Tormod's crypt
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x REB
1x Goblin King
2x ?

It seems 4x Port isnt played anymore... but I figured in mono red, it shouldn't really hurt since you can always get RR consistently. Should I still lower the count?
Sharpshooter could probably be something else, I just didn't see any other gob worth including.

Any advice would be appreciated ;) Thanks!

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Originally Posted by loop

Hi. I fired up MWS again yesterday and started playing a bit with gobs again... and I was thinking about playing it in an upcoming local tourney.
For budget reasons, I'd like to stick to mono red though.. is it still viable?

I was thinking about a list like this:

15x Mountain
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port

4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

4x Aether Vial

SB:
4x Tormod's crypt
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x REB
1x Goblin King
2x ?

It seems 4x Port isnt played anymore... but I figured in mono red, it shouldn't really hurt since you can always get RR consistently. Should I still lower the count?
Sharpshooter could probably be something else, I just didn't see any other gob worth including.

Any advice would be appreciated ;) Thanks!

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Needs more fetch, IMO. Mono red feels weaker than the splashes of B and/or G. Black gives you awesome removal and recursion from Wort and Weirdings. Green gives Grip and Hooligan.

I never said I didn't see the strength of a green/black splash, I think I made it clear it was a budget issue...

You ever thought about putting Blood moon in the maindeck? It seems pretty strong if you are mono red.

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Originally Posted by quietmage

You ever thought about putting Blood moon in the maindeck? It seems pretty strong if you are mono red.

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Yeah, I'd test blood moon MD, but since it isn't a Goblin, and is often dead, it may not be optimal MD. You should definitely play a few in your board, though.

Seems like a good sideboard choice indeed... here's what I had in mind so far:
4x REB
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Chalice of the void
3x Pyrostatic pillar

I thought it'd give me a fighting chance against combo... do you suggest blood moon over something else?

And what about the MD of the list I posted? No suggestions?
Thanks :)

The MD for your mono-red list is pretty standard. I'd run that if I were running mono-red.

For the SB, I've never felt the need to run REB's in Goblins. I'd much rather want it to be any other Goblin in decks which REB is sided in. I can't think of anything to replace it though, other than the aforementioned Blood Moon. Maybe Pyrokinesis.

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Originally Posted by loop

Hi. I fired up MWS again yesterday and started playing a bit with gobs again... and I was thinking about playing it in an upcoming local tourney.
For budget reasons, I'd like to stick to mono red though.. is it still viable?

I was thinking about a list like this:

15x Mountain
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port

4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Goblin Tinkerer
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

4x Aether Vial

SB:
4x Tormod's crypt
4x Pyrostatic Pillar
4x REB
1x Goblin King
2x ?

It seems 4x Port isnt played anymore... but I figured in mono red, it shouldn't really hurt since you can always get RR consistently. Should I still lower the count?
Sharpshooter could probably be something else, I just didn't see any other gob worth including.

Any advice would be appreciated ;) Thanks!

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Maybe a Stingscourger (or a few)? It's really nice to be able to bounce Naughts and other big blockers to get that lethal damage through. And I'm not certain whether you really need 23 lands because you wont be reducing your library's land count during the game with fetchlands. Maybe you can drop one or two lands?

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Originally Posted by loop

Seems like a good sideboard choice indeed... here's what I had in mind so far:
4x REB
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Chalice of the void
3x Pyrostatic pillar

I thought it'd give me a fighting chance against combo... do you suggest blood moon over something else?

And what about the MD of the list I posted? No suggestions?
Thanks :)

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In place of 4 REB and 3 Pyrostatic Pillar, play 3 Blood Moon and 4 Shattering Spree. Or something like that. Pillar is awful.

I play goblin from about two years: goblin grappler in this meta is a very good card! Whit grappler I can attacks with goblin piledriver without the fear of tarmogoyf or another annoying card!
For the side I play this:

SB: 3 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 3 [US] Disenchant
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void

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Originally Posted by Mental

In place of 4 REB and 3 Pyrostatic Pillar, play 3 Blood Moon and 4 Shattering Spree. Or something like that. Pillar is awful.

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Really? That's interesting.. I assumed Pillar made the combo match up better (haven't been able to playtest a lot against it yet tho). Is it not the case?

Blood moon seems like a good idea, and was already suggested, I'm adding it.

Against which deck would you want Sprees?

I'm not really convinced for either Stingscourger and Grappler yet, but I'll think about it...

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And I'm not certain whether you really need 23 lands because you wont be reducing your library's land count during the game with fetchlands. Maybe you can drop one or two lands?

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Maybe I can indeed. Though I don't really want to drop mountains because of RR requirements, and Port seems better to me than subpar goblins... Not sure yet.

Thanks for all the advice so far :)

with grappler you haven't problem for tarmogoyf(blocking piledriver) and other big creatures that many times are problematics..

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Originally Posted by loop

Really? That's interesting.. I assumed Pillar made the combo match up better (haven't been able to playtest a lot against it yet tho). Is it not the case?

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Combo is just one of those MU's that you just need luck and Chalices to win. Overloading your SB for that MU is just a waste of space.

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Originally Posted by Shivanking

with grappler you haven't problem for tarmogoyf(blocking piledriver) and other big creatures that many times are problematics..

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It's a pretty narrow card to even try to fit into the deck. We already have Warren Weirding anyway.

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Combo is just one of those MU's that you just need luck and Chalices to win. Overloading your SB for that MU is just a waste of space.

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Makes sense. I'll remove it then...
Mental mentionned Spree in its place, is it to take care of Jitte/SoFI, etc. that Tinkerer won't be able to handle?
Sounds like a good idea... Would help against Stax, too.
Thanks for the input.

For my next playtests I'll be trying
4x Crypts
4x Sprees
4x Chalice
3x Blood Moon

As far as I remember Stingscourger was a pretty normal card in the deck before the black splash became available offering Warren Weirding. Gempalm is not a replacement for Warren Weirding.

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Originally Posted by loop

Makes sense. I'll remove it then...
Mental mentionned Spree in its place, is it to take care of Jitte/SoFI, etc. that Tinkerer won't be able to handle?
Sounds like a good idea... Would help against Stax, too.
Thanks for the input.

For my next playtests I'll be trying
4x Crypts
4x Sprees
4x Chalice
3x Blood Moon

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crypt against what ? Against aggro loam leyline is better. Against aggro with tarmo is really useless because you want only kill the creature and tormod never help for this. Sure against ichorid it is good. But versus ichorid it is a win more in a normally constitued goblin.

With your list you can't win against real aggro in legacy. You haven't warren weirding in MD and pyrokinesis in SB so you couldn't kill their creature (gempalm is too long now). tarmogoyf, countryside crusher, terravore, dreadnought, tombstalker, akroma and arc slogger kill you.

chalice is not optimised against combo now. Thorn of amethyst can help again ichorid and control too.

pithing needle is better than shattering spree. He stop the threat before the opponant can use it. And it is also good against pernicious deed.

blood moon is conceivable in a mono red build but goblin without black (and especially without warren weirding) can't survive in the actual meta (or in minimum, in my meta).

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As far as I remember Stingscourger was a pretty normal card in the deck before the black splash became available offering Warren Weirding. Gempalm is not a replacement for Warren Weirding.

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Sure. In my Rb version I play 1 stingscourger, 3 gempalm and 3 weirding. I need all of them against all the aggro in the meta.

After some further remembering my old lists, I'd play the following SB in mono red:

4 Chalice
3 Moon
4 Crypt
3 Pyrokenisis
1 Goblin King

that's about as solid as it gets. If you're worried about Jitte/SoFI, play Spree in place of Crypts/Kenisis.

Thorn of Amethyst, while decent, can't really do as much as Chalice can. Combo can win through Thorn before Chalice, and Thresh is hurt more by Chalice than Thorn. Play Chalice.