[Deck] Burn

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Originally Posted by martyr

I've been thinking about Repercussion as a sideboard card against creature-based decks, instead of Searing Blaze or maybe in addition to it (in Kyle's deck, in place of the Volcanic Fallouts). I like it over Fallout because it gives you a more solid answer to decks whose creatures are frequently pumped over 2 toughness (merfolk, zoo, etc). In an aggro-heavy meta, you can drop most of the creatures maindeck in favor of Flamebreak and Magma Jet (Flamebreak should be obvious, Magma Jet to increase the likelihood of hitting your third land drop or sweeping the board when it's most relevant), with a few copies of Repurcussion in the SB. Drop some combination of Sulfuric Vortex, your remaining creatures, and Price of Progress, side in the Repercussions and Searing Blaze, and go to town. As soon as Repercussion hits, assuming you get to untap and no extremely unlucky draws occur, you're almost guaranteed to win the race...and going t3 Repercussion, t4 Flamebreak is hilarious. Turn 4 wins when a zoo player thought he was going to be able to race with his god hand are hilarious, as is hitting a Goblins player for 15+.

It might be too slow, it might be too fragile, but I doubt anyone's really expecting it, and the few games I've played with friends suggest that it can really break open an aggro-heavy meta.

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This card suffers from the fact that 1: do you really want to tap out when you get 3 mana to cast this spell that does nothing for your board position and you're giving aggro an extra turn to try to kill you first before you can kill them, 2: you really don't want to have multiple copies of this card in your opening hand and 3: topdecking this card when you need burn. This card is kind of like furnace of rath where if you get to untap with it, you'll rock their world but usually they'll rock your world instead.

Even if this enchantment was just R or even 1R to cast, I wouldn't play it just because it's a dead card when topdeck it and you already have it in play.

If you want to break open an aggro-heavy meta, just run more sweepers. If you can consistently wipe the board, you'll have the turns to kill them with burn anyway. For competitive play, you don't want fancy combos that can be hilarious in 1 game out of 10, and mediocre to horrible in every other case.

In competitive play, you want consistency and minimized dead draws. In competitive burn, you want to reduce your exposure to opposing removal and reduce the number of dependencies in your deck. Repercussion doesn't help any of that.

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Originally Posted by Lifeless

Kyle is a good friend and testing partner of mine so I can try to shed some light on the Vortexes. He loves them because if you're ahead you can often stick one and win outright. There's no way he would have beaten Enchantress in round 2 without them in the main to get him game 1.

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I also run Vortex main (though not 4), but I don't understand the usefulness against Enchantress. Most Enchantress builds have 2-3 slots of enchantment removal (seals, ORing, aura) and 4-6 tutors to get them (grove, Etutor) plus their draw engine. To me, the match comes down to killing them with any number of your spells before they can stick Solitary Confinement - if they do, you're screwed with or without Vortex. Even if Vortex would help, they should be able to remove it next turn without problems. So how did it help him?

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Originally Posted by urdjur

I also run Vortex main (though not 4), but I don't understand the usefulness against Enchantress. Most Enchantress builds have 2-3 slots of enchantment removal (seals, ORing, aura) and 4-6 tutors to get them (grove, Etutor) plus their draw engine. To me, the match comes down to killing them with any number of your spells before they can stick Solitary Confinement - if they do, you're screwed with or without Vortex. Even if Vortex would help, they should be able to remove it next turn without problems. So how did it help him?

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Vortex really just finished him off. I realize it's not going to commonly go down like that but he was unable to find Confinement in time and the 2 damage per turn plus a couple good rips ended it. I overstated how strong it was in that match-up, but having some guaranteed damage is key.

Yeah, they don't always have time to get Confinement, that's for sure. I've also found Pithing Needle to be a useful board against them. If you Pithe the Sterling Grove, chances are they can't find the 1-2 copies of Confinement - while they waste time on handling the neddle, you can just win. Anarchy is good too of course, but a bit too narrow for most metas.

// Lands
8 [UNH] Mountain
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
3 [CFX] Hellspark Elemental
4 [PLC] Keldon Marauders
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer

// Spells
3 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [M10] Lightning Bolt
2 [VI] Fireblast
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [CHK] Lava Spike
4 [LG] Chain Lightning

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 4 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

Got tips ? Is relic a good SB card for this ? Like mishras ? :O

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Originally Posted by Pich

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Got tips ? Is relic a good SB card for this ? Like mishras ? :O

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Only thing about mishras i don't like is that it really stunts what you can do every turn. let's say you have a mountain and a mishras and you have 3 bolt effects in your hand. If you don't draw any other mountains, you can only cast one bolt each turn and that is quite the setback in a burn deck, especially on the turn when you want to unleash all your burn for the kill.

The grim lavamancers and the relic have pretty bad synergy. I guess if you're boarding in the relics, you'd board out the lavamancers. Also, I'd only board in relics if there is a ton of dredge or vengevine madness in your metagame. Otherwise, there's really nothing to be scared of from the graveyard.

I'm not a big fan of the pyrostatic pillar. It doesn't seem like a huge deterrent against combo players as they can always play a bounce spell to get rid of it first and then combo off. The keldon marauders also never felt right when I played the deck as they always got plowed or burned or removed somehow before they got to attack or block. That guy not having haste is a huge minus against it.

What exactly is the problem with having your Keldon Marauders plowed? 2 damage to them, 3 life for you, they paid 1 mana and lose the option for emergency lifegain. I'd be happy about it being plowed and wouldn't mind it getting burned; as long as it's not Terrored or something AND the opponent has nothing better to do, it has done its job.

If your opponent Plow Marauders, you get almost a Lightning Helix + Duress.
Looks like a good play for me.

I just found that the 2 damage i invested in the keldon marauders after they got destroyed somehow was never worth the 2 mana. People are already complaining about how magma jet sucks since it's 1R for 2 damage but the marauders are pretty much the same as magma jet except it's sorcery speed and there's no scry. I just never got the marauders to work the way I wished it did. If i wanted it to attack, i could never deal 5 damage and when i needed it to be a blocker, it was never able to block. Also when it came to sideboarding, I started to sideboard the marauders out in every matchup since they never dealt damage fast enough so at the end I just decided to cut them out totally and replace them with incinerates. At least incinerates are guarenteed 3 damage and it's an instant. I really hated tapping out when i'm playing the burn deck.

As a goblin player: I hate to see Marauder in front of me.

Burn is my first Legacy.dec, but in times, I can't performe positive in a torunament.
I'm playing this list right now:

18 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
1 Shard Volley

4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Flamebreak
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sirocco

Mostly I just burn out before I can deal lethal dmg. Burn is just too weak right now.

has anyone tried/tested skullscorch?

I am aware that modal spells often don;t do what you want them to when you want them to(like the card that must not be named) but this spell is either a hymn to tourach or a one sided flame rift. is there any real downside other than losing some tempo on the burn of things?, but even then it seems often must counter if they have counters due to the possibility of ripping their blue cards or randomly their force of will out of their hand in which case it did its job

just a thought...

If we're not running Browbeat, why would we run Skullscorch? How does it fix the fundamental problems of Browbeat?

Actually, it's considerably worse since a topdecking opponent in the lategame just opts to discard and proceeds to lose nothing, setting you back by one card and two mana.

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Originally Posted by YrdBrd72803

Pretty standard stuff except for the inclusion of the set of Lavamancers and Vortexes main. The only thing that looks a lil out of sorts to my eyes is 12 fetches. Seems about 4 too many. I think 8 fetches combined with the number of spells hitting the graveyard would give you plenty of Lavamancer food. With Lavamancer in the main, perhaps the Vortexes should be Flamebreak/Fallout?

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If you're playing Lavamancer, 12 fetches is fine. I don't really understand your logic of playing Lavamancer and also playing sweepers. Playing dudes that stick on the board and are better the longer they are there seems pretty bad with sweepers that will kill those dudes. If I were to play Lavamancers I would definitely not be playing several sweepers main. Maybe 2 with some in the board. Sure, Vortex does not hit the grave for mancer to eat, but the extra fetches make up for it.

Repercussion is a card that I have tried before, and when it's good it's a blow-out. The problem is 9 times out of 10 if I'm not playing Flamebreak on turn 3 against goblins and zoo I'll be dead by turn 4, or too far behind to catch up. Not being able to affect the game state immediately is the reason I can't justify playing it.

As for Magma Jet, play 4 or play 0. As stated earlier, it helps to get to 3 lands for your sweeper against aggro matches, and can help you from drawing extra land in other matches. I also find that it is the only MD card that I don't feel bad about throwing at a creature, since it's only 2 damage and it can help to set up the next burn spell.

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Originally Posted by ThomasDowd

but this spell is either a hymn to tourach or a one sided flame rift.

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The key is that it's your opponent's choice.

This means late game, when you need that burn spell, it will always be a Hymn to Tourach that won't kill your opponent and won't help you against the Tarmogoyf you're trying to outrace. It will also always be the Hymn to Tourach when your opponent has emptied Wild Nacatls on the board, or refilled his hand with a Goblin Ringleader, etc.

Similarly, it will always be a burn spell against decks that are a turn away from dropping an Emrakul, or have an active Jitte or Sword of Light and Shadow, or have two Tarmogoyfs on the board and a spare STP in hand, or who have a Lightning Helix or two to steal the life right back, etc.

Essentially, assuming the player knows what they're doing, it's always the worse of the two between Hymn and 4 damage. Would you play Hymn to Tourach in Suicide Black if the opponent could counter it for 4 life?

Skullscorch is terrible. So is Browbeat. So is every current card in magic where the opponent gets the choice between the two things.

Skullscorch is WORSE than Browbeat, because if the opponent's hand is empty, which do you think he'll chose?

Now, this thread is 36 pages for me, and I've got 40 posts per page, so I know it's more for most of you -- I don't want to read the whole thread for the Browbeat argument. However, in a straight Burn.dec, is there a bad choice from our perspective with Browbeat? The worst case scenario is that they have a bunch of life, and you're out of cards, and they take the damage. The only way that can even happen is if they've depleted their hand with counters/discard. So at worst you played [/cards]Flames of the Blood Hand[/cards], basically. Now, FotBH isn't good enough for Burn (for :r::r: or :r::1: it probably would be, but 3 cmc is for better stuff than FotBH), so that means Browbeat probably isn't either, but that doesn't make it TERRIBLE, does it?

@ mujadaddy: Read the thread. Bringing up old topics because you don't know how to use the search feature makes no sense. I agree with everything Tacosnape said, except that a Hymn that you can counter by paying 4 life would actually seem pretty hot in suicide black, especially backed by real hymns, lol.

See, the only one I'd even remotely consider playing is Lava Blister, and that one would be in the side, and heavily meta-dependent.

A really solid burn deck came in second place at SCG's 5K Denver Legacy Open Tournament out of 150 players.

The list actually seems very optimal...

//Burn, by Kyle Miller

8 Mountain
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Rift Bolt
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Goblin Guide
4 Scalding Tarn

// Sideboard:
SB: 3 Volcanic Fallout
SB: 4 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 4 Vexing Shusher
SB: 4 Searing Blaze

I think it should be edited into the OP because it is everything a burn deck should be, and it also performed really well.