Was thinking about Choke some more and another point is that it makes their Mind Harnesses (which I think is their best card against us) significantly worse.
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Was thinking about Choke some more and another point is that it makes their Mind Harnesses (which I think is their best card against us) significantly worse.
I haven't seen Mind harness in a RUG sideboard in a long time but that's true. Most lists just run 4 Submerge as it's a free card and can get rid of our threat if you play into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
I only play 2 Chokes (eTutor board) these days. I think we're generally in agreement that Choke is what comes in from the board last after our extra removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade
For me, I've been boarding:
-3 SFM
-2 Qasali
-1 Teeg
-2 Sylvan Library
-1 Thalia
+3 Path to Exile
+1 Maze of Ith
+2 Oblivion Ring (added these in as a concession to Sneaky Show)
+2 Choke
I have been thinking though, with less Spell Snares being played these days, if the SFM's should come in and all the Thalias come out.
Hah the RUG players in my meta all play like 4x Submerge, 2-3x Mind Harness. So much hate for us!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fade
I would side out always all thalias being on the draw. I dont want t loss against an early delver. I like gaddok in this MU, is the perfect card against his best removal, submerge. And not all players side out fows.
I also like choke. I usually side in 2 of 3
I agree with leaving Gaddok in it is great against submerge. I like Thalia though also it slows down the deck manipulation and is a good attacker in a race. Although I play a faster version of Maverick with Nacatls.Quote:
Originally Posted by M@verick
Choke is junk against RUG many list play a Taiga and Daze lets them reset their land while it does nothing against their clocks. I would much rather have a maze or a Path to Exile which shines against a deck with no basics. I have been experimenting siding in an honorable passage for the bolts it can turn a race around.
No one is saying board in Choke over removal from the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarterus
I think Thalia is pretty bad in that matchup because:
1) It opens us up for more 2 for 1's from Forked Bolt
2) She is a terrible blocker (we're the control role in this matchup, we shouldn't be trying to race).
3) She doesn't actually slow them down very much since it doesn't keep them from playing creatures and they still have plenty of mana to use their removal on our guys.
Honestly, if you're that concerned about them I feel that Burrenton Forge-Tender would be stronger, since they can easily play around honorable passage. With tender on the other hand, you shut down all of their removal, which can open up ways to protect your creatures and make it difficult for them to deal with you. I particularly like how he protects SFM, and how forge-tender can put on equipment without RUG being able to answer your creature at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarterus
lies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
what are u talking about? the matchup against RUG Delver?
Thalia is one of our best cards in this match up.
RUG Delver's specialty is to be able to operate on 2 lands (tropical + volcanic). If u increase the spells cost the deck becomes less efficient.
You're kidding, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by xiaocho
While increasing the cost of their non-creature spells (since Thalia does absolutely nothing to stop Mongoose, Delver, or Goyf) is nice, she doesn't matter in the long run since you can't stack multiple of her effects to really lock them out.
So while it now costs them 2 to Forked Bolt Thalia + Arbor / Hierarch / Mom, they can still do it fairly easily.
Again, as a creature, Thalia can't block any of their creatures nor can she race any of them.
no, RUG players seriously hate Thalia.
It slows them down and thats all u want to achieve.
I'm pretty sure I've read something regarding thalia and her usefulness against RUG at starcitygames. Unfortunately I couldnt find it.
What Thalia does:
Forces RUG to continue playing lands. This is at the expense of saving lands in hand to Brainstorm away. It also means not being able to play Ponder, find Bolt, play Bolt with any less than 4 mana. It means Daze now costs :1: and a land drop.
Thalia is great against RUG, but terrible against their creatures. Luckily, we have Jitte and StP and Mother of Runes and Knight of the Fatass-wastery
In theory, thalia is the perfect card against RUG tempo. But i didnt find that good when I tested, specially being on the draw. If your opponent has battlefield advantatge, playing thalia is a bad idea, because is hardest for us resolving a solution against his creatures: stp, GSZ, jitte... the opponent just need to defense his advantate to win, and we are going to fall in all dazes, pierces, and stifles, cause we are hurry up.
Being on the draw against RUG is the bigger problem. I don't think it's just Thalia that suffers. In my recent testing, many decks lose to a decent RUG opener while being on the draw.
Damn that T1 Delver.
So good!
Also, a reason I don't like Thalia is because she makes their Forked Bolts (which are already very good against us) usually a guaranteed 2 for 1.
In a matchup where we're generally going to win by grinding them out, she doesn't really help with that plan when she's generating card disadvantage for us.
Lots of talk about RUG Delver. You don't have to do a lot of drastic things to make this matchup better. Just metagame a little. Consider the following:
1. If you aren't playing a single copy of Sylvan Safekeeper, just go try it. It's seriously so stupidly amazingly clutch. It's pretty solid in the RUG Delver matchup, both for burn protection and for getting a Knight of the Reliquary far past their ability to keep one under control. I've outraced turn one Delvers with turn three Knights because of Safekeeper mass-sacrifices before.
2. Play more Scavenging Oozes. They're such a problem for Mongoose and Tarmogoyf both if they get going.
3. Toss in an extra Path or two on top of your STP's so you can laser the turn one Delvers more reliably.
4. Maindeck the Maze. If Knight's your control guy, let him do his job better.
5. Board a single copy of Matsu-Tribe Sniper. Yes, I'll wait while you go gatherer that. (Taps foot...) Okay? Okay. Efficient little dude. Ices down Delvers, Emrakuls, and Griselbrands. Kills Cliques. If you don't want to do this, then just play a second Scryb Ranger.
Don't forget he also nukes Spirits like he's a Ghostbuster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Rofl that guy is awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
I haven't gotten around to testing it, but I wanted to give Ulvenwald Tracker a spin...
I wasn't impressed with Ulvenwald Tracker. I found Thornscape Apprentice to be better. This Sniper duder from Betrayers doesn't strike me as much stronger unless you're seeing a ton of Lingering Souls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
In an unknown/normal meta I'd sooner run additional Path to Exiles than tie up slots with tappers.
So here's a pre-emptive question - What're we gonna do about Omniscience, since most of our S&T strategy is based on doing Knight/Karakas stuff, and Omniscience is just going to slaughter us? Thalia has a minor effect on it, but what's our best strategy here otherwise? Harmonic Sliver? Ethersworn Canonist?
Is Omniscience even something we really have to worry about? It looks like right now a lot of those decks are 3 card combo decks. I probably wouldn't worry about it until a list gets settled for it - presuming the deck even goes anywhere.
Yeah, why would Show and Tell decks play a card that doesn't win the game for them immediately? They are fine with Griselbrand and Emrakul.
they do instant win with a wish, it is a 3 card combo, that is right, but they instant win and karakas won't help you.
OK, I see it now. It's kind of like Hive Mind, then, another three card combo (except Hive Mind is easier to hard cast). I guess it would just be a bad matchup, which Show and Tell Decks already are anyway. I don't know what you can do, except to play more Thalia and aggressively attack their mana base.
But instead of Pacts you get to play more counter/cantrip and Burning Wish...Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
I think that more Harmonic Sliver just gets there if Omniscience turns into a real thing (And I think it absolutely will.) Course, then you get to decide whether you're dropping it or Knight off a Show and Tell, which makes life a little more complicated.
I don't think Omniscience will be a thing in SnT. Why would they drop that into play when they could just drop a win condition into play. It waters down the deck and requires them to have a third card in hand to go off.
The lists posted at the moment are not better than the standart dream halls deck, which is not a problem. There are plenty of answers already in maverik: qasali, teeg, thalia, canonist, wastelands, etc. The % of a goldfish like show-omni-staggershock-world is too little to worry about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Best way I've found to deal with Show and Tell decks is splash blue and run 4 Flusterstorm in the board. Those decks pretty much can't resolve a Show and Tell through Flusterstorm. If they wait to play around it, that just gives you time to get a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben to stick or potentially Wasteland them out of the game.
In my experience, if they aren't cheating a creature/Hive Mind/Dream Halls into play by the third turn, we beat them.
i can follow ur argumentation.
can u explain why flusterstorm is great against Sneak&Tell? It's not like ur going to win the counterwar with a mere flusterstorm.
Whenever they go for Show and Tell and you have the Flusterstorm they will need 2 Counters/Mana because you have 1 Storm + Flusterstorm. Misderection doesn't work as hardcounter as long as you have 1 mana up, but they side this out most likely anyways., whereas Spell Pierce can easily redirected to Misdicetion.
Kuma, how much testing did you invest for that matchup, it might be time to add 4 Flusterstorm and 2 Gilded Drake to the board if ou meta demands it. (Sneak Show is nearly non existant here)
Your post doesn't make sense. Either you follow Kuma's point or it requires further explanation? I can't see how both?~Quote:
Originally Posted by xiaocho
So Show and Tell will cost :2::u:. His build has the ability to Fusterstorm, as it will be the 2nd spell, it double Force Spikes, so the Sneak and Show player isn't going to be able to Force/Misdirection through a resolution. They either walk into this game two, or expect it, but regardless they're forced to slow down. Their options will be to wait another turn or two playing around Flusterstorm or have to sculpt to a hand with 2 Show and Tells, both of these options buy Kuma time to land Thalia which exasserbates the situation. With Sneak and Show's jank mana base Wasteland can essentially do the same thing if attacking Sol lands.
Strikes me as a fine plan, Flusterstorm definitely complements Thalia and Wasteland well and splashes against Storm combo.
sorry,
I wanted to say:
I can't follow ur argumentation.
Hey guys.
I have won a GPT to Gent today with my list. We were 30 players.
The rounds:
R1 0-2 Dredge
R2 2-1 Elves combo
R3 2-0 UWB Blade
R4 2-1 Nic fit
R5 Draw
Top 8 2-0 UW miracle
Top 4 2-0 UWB blade
Final: split to UW miracle
We will see in Gent ;)
Really good to see that you're doing well versus UW Terminus, as that matchup seemed pretty bad when I initially matched them up in my head (fully aware of potential Vial+Teeg+Karakas shenanigans).
I went 2-1 with M@verick's list last Thursday in a small weekly tourney, losing to Lands (horrible matchup), and beating Reanimator and Merfolk handily. Aside from actually just having to scoop to Ensnaring Bridge game one, the list continued to feel pretty tight.
Looks like Ben Stark didn't lose a match coming into the top 8 of GP Atlanta.
Do you guys think its
a) He has most optimal Maverick list?
b) He is a master player
c) A mix of both (probably more of b)
I've bought the missing cards to build M@verick's list today on MTGO and I'll give it a spin.
Hey, sorry, I was finishing up school stuff this past week.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryscott85
I was in Detroit, but I didn't do so hot.
1-3 in the Legacy Challenge the day before. 0.o;
Went with the same thing I played in Indy for the Open, went 1-2. 0.o;
Just didn't run so hot. Lost to UW Miracles and ... Food Chain combo in Detroit. Against UW, the games were close, and it went to three games. The Food Chain guy killed me on 2 both times. >.> Dropped early since someone else was heading back my way early as well.
Picked up the pieces though and did good in my weekly's, and just got home from a 3rd place at a SCG Super IQ for 260.
As for Cavern if Souls... I haven't been a fan of it. One thing I love about GW is the consistent manabase. While having uncounterable guys is good, I don't like opening the door to mana issues.
Went 2-2 in the GP side event with the old standard. Went 2-1 vs Reanimator then TheInfamousBearAssassin logic crushed the tarshit out of 1SylvanLibraryDogShitPile.dec
New list:
2 Sylvan Library