Does anyone knows how to deal with MUD aggro? btw, im using Punishing Nic-Fit. What would be the MUD's sideboard weakness?
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Does anyone knows how to deal with MUD aggro? btw, im using Punishing Nic-Fit. What would be the MUD's sideboard weakness?
Having played MUD for a while...
With ScapeWish: Burning Wish --> Pulverize
If you have access to red mana, Shattering Spree is good, because the Replicate copies aren't countered by Chalice of the Void.
Pernicious Deed is also good to get rid of their Chalice / mana acceleration / Wurm tokens.
>_< I really need to decide on a build so I can actually finish it and play with it. Right now I'm on a Living Wish kick since Wishing for Angel of Despair against OmniTell seems strong enough to give us an advantage, but I'm sure I'll cycle through Intuition/Gifts, Breakthrough/Read the Runes, etc. until then.
What are some good BUG Gifts lists? I liked Bruizar's take on BUG Fit with Intuition + Unburial Rites a few hundred posts ago, wondering what are the alternatives / what part of the thread I should read for the Gifts version.
I would recommend doing a search of the thread for something like "underground sea". You should find pretty much just decklists for BUG lists since thats the only time anyone would really say "underground sea".Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
Yeah, I've already searched using "Gifts Ungiven". But Underground Sea is a good idea, since it will help me find non-Gifts versions too.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Is there some kind of "official" BUG list? I think Arianrhod was working on a BUG Fit control. Do people still play BUG versions anyway? Seems like most people go BG, BGw Rector, or BGr ScapeWish.
I also wonder how Abrupt Decay would fit in the BUG fit.
I guess I'll keep digging and read all the posts. Already read pages 48 to 53, 100 more pages to go.
Woo hoo! Nic Fit on camera at SCG providence. Wonder if it anyone from here. Rector fit looks like it.
Ya keep reading, its all there. I know little about BUG, never played it. But More recently (probably last 20ish) pages there has been more talk on BUG.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
SCG, Providence: Ouch, game 1 was brutal. Did the Nic Fit-player even do anything (besides whiffing a therapy)?
That seemed like a fairly loose keep against an unknown deck. Therapy was good, yosei and nightmare seems a little slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu
That Delver should not have flipped, it's competitive and he is messing around with his triggers. He revealed the Seize to the Confidant and then flipped Delver with it after noting life total... Maybe they talked while that happened but visually that sucked :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu
Interesting, didn't notice that. BTW, the Nic Fit-player really doesn't try to play around Daze. I get so sad when a Green Sun's Zenith for 5 slams right into a Daze.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackStarDeceiver
They both play horribly, sloppy and i guess they are just nervous being on camera...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu
In addition Phramer was rearranging the graveyard after looking through and stuff.
Yeah, to be fair: I would probably play badly in front of the camera as well. (Or more precisely: I would play even worse than I usually do, I'm a pretty average player at best.)Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackStarDeceiver
Then, let me correct my wording ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu
It seemed horrible without the conversations between them (in case they did talk actually).
Not playing around Daze was pretty bad though, as well as not Snapcastering the Surgical but well.
I dont think many people really know about that interaction--especially if you've never played against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackStarDeceiver
Sure, but they palyed pretty sloppy anyways and Steven snap-grabbed his library when the Rector died, so he treid to get around the Surgical, maybe he didn't even know about it himself ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
I think BUG is the least developed of the variants. And when you break down within those colors there isn't yet a consensus on the style of play let alone a typical build. Gifts, Intuition, infinite combo, now Future Sight. Lets of opportunity to make your mark if you put in the playtest hours though.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
I guess I'm going to have to grab this out of the SCG podcast to watch the games. Nic Fit isn't in there often enough. What round was this matchup?Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackStarDeceiver
Pretty sure if I kill my Rector I'm going for my library hoping my opponent doesn't realize he's got a chance to exploit that intervening if. Or I'll ask if he's going to Stifle the trigger just to put that suggestion in his head instead of extraction.
Am 2-3 Bayous away from scapewish fit....So any boarding hints or deck tips would be helpful. Burning Wish is my favorite card and I have always wanted to play deed. Anyone have spicy wish targets? Also, thinking about Arianrhod's lists as my base cutting one stomping grounds to go to 60 cards and shaving the other stomping grounds for the 4th Badlands.
Edit: What about switching the Bonfires for Firespout?
Eh: I believe the big appeal of Bonfire is that it is a one-sided spell that will put your opponent closer to lethal range via Valakut. Don't quote me on that since I haven't touched or tested Scapewish.
I believe it was Round 5 or 6.Quote:
Originally Posted by slikwilly
It was round 6; both players were 5-0.
Steve played a tad too quickly and I feel like he could have thought through the match up a little more carefully. However, he ended 12th so grats to him. He must have played well outside of that so there may have been some stage fright.
I think your list is really interesting!Quote:
Originally Posted by kabards
But i don't like too much the SB, just two slots vs Graveyard are enough?
With your tricolor mana-base isn't hard have BB early to cast Hymn to Tourach? Wouldn't be better more Duress or Thoughtseize?
Any report of your tournament? :)
Current BUG Fit List:
Main
4 Veteran Explorer (Staple)
1 Arbor Elf (Zenithable no-sac ramp)
1 Starved Rusalka (Zenithable sac-outlet)
1 Scavenging Ooze (Zenithable answer to Goyf and Dredge)
2 Eternal Witness (Staple with Recursive engines)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll (Excellent blocker for Planeswalkers and the most reliable clock available)
1 Thragtusk (Life-gain for Aggro/Extra Therapy bodies for Control and Combo)
1 Primeval Titan (Stronghold Tower assembler in the form of a deck-thinning, massive ramp engine)
4 Green Sun's Zenith (Staple, especially in this build)
3 Diabolic Intent (Allows me to follow up a whiffed Cabal Therapy with an appropriate answer)
4 Pernicious Deed (Staple sweeper)
2 Abrupt Decay (CounterTop hoser)
2 Maelstrom Pulse (Planeswalker killer)
2 Flusterstorm (Protection from Combo and Force of Will)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (Blue Staple and deck manipulator)
2 Liliana Vess (Preferred over Liliana of the Veil simply because of her tutor ability and one-sided discard. Also, her bomb is a bit more devastating)
1 Phyrexian Tower (Enables power plays with Veteran Explorer and one-half of the Stronghold Tower recursive engine)
1 Volrath's Stronghold (Can recur threats and ramp like a boss and one-half of the Stronghold Tower recursive engine)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
Side
4 Chalice of the Void (To hell with Storm.dec!)
4 Angel of Despair (To hell with Show and Tell.dec!)
4 Engineered Plague (To hell with Tribal.dec!)
3 Carpet of Flowers (To hell with the Mirror Match and Delver.dec)
So uhh, what relevant things Arbor Elf accomplishes that Birds don't do better?
Also, may I suggest Brainstorm in your BUG Control deck?
It deals damage, and it isn't as susceptible to removal in the sense that I can untap a Bayou/Tropical Island into response to it dying, and use that mana during any time between then and my next untap phase. Wasteland is a still evil though.
Also, Jace is the Brainstorm of the deck. Brainstorm by itself, as well as SDT, has yet to prove to be useful as a toolbox in goldfishing, although I can see how it can be used as such with fetchlands.
Also, also, forgot lands: let me update the list real quick.
Unless you're playing a combo deck goldfishing is a poor judge of card power. Especially cards that are used reactively. When nothing you have dies or gets countered yeah, brainstorm probably doesn't seem that amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
? I thought the main appeal of Brainstorm was to extend the starting hand-size from 7 or 8 to 10 or 11? Unless I'm missing some interaction between it and other cards. Not bad for a deck with a bit more consistent construction, but not so great (again from my goldfish experience, which I admit is worth little with a control deck) on a deck with a lot of 1-ofs and 2-ofs.
Also, when I goldfish with a control deck, I tend to think about the possible plays my hypothetical opponent would make. Not a substitute for actual playtesting by any means, but better than simply going "I can win by turn five or six assuming no interaction!" To give an example, I've recently developed the habit of playing crucial bombs with one mana source open in case of Daze.
I'm not really getting your deck. You're in blue for Jace and Flusterstorm? Flusterstorm is a sideboard card most of the time and adding a color and weakening your mana base for Jace doesn't seem like a good enough reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
Also, I second the comment about goldfishing being a poor judge of power. Additionally, Nic Fit is a pretty complex deck to play. The best way to get better with it is to grind some games (this is true of any deck, but especially in a deck with the complexity of Nic Fit in a format with the diversity of Legacy). Learning the correct lines takes experience. (See the discussion last week about the tendency to want to sideboard out Tribe-Elder despite the fact that doing so is pretty much never correct.)
Flusterstorm is actually a nifty anti-counterspell card in the disguise of an anti-storm card. Consider this: let's say you need to get a bomb on the board against a blue control deck to seal the game. You have enough mana for a bomb and Flusterstorm, and they're tapped out. You drop the bomb and they Force of Will it. You Flusterstorm the FoW. Now, they must pay 1 mana or use another counterspell for each of the three copies (two storm count and one original). Since Daze and Force of Will are the only "free" counterspells I'm aware of, either option will either cripple their hand or their mana, usually ensuring you'll win the game anyway.
Prepost EDIT: Wait, they can just target the original spell again then, can't they? Dangnabbit.
I will admit it's application outside of countermagic and anti-combo (Storm being the most obvious, but also blue-based combo) is meager at best.
And I just realized how good Brainstorm was against disruption, though I'm still at a loss for what it does against counters and removal.
That's not the main appeal of brainstorm. I mean to put it bluntly, brainstorm is the most powerful spell in legacy and there's a reason for it that is incredibly applicable to nic fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
Actually as a rule of thumb casting a brainstorm early is probably the worst, most useless application of the card. You don't waste brainstorms like that unless you need to, you don't want to use it as a crutch. The purpose, first and foremost, of brainstorm is to accelerate yourself through 3 draw steps to find an answer and keep yourself in the game--an issue that Nic Fit frequently has. The deck has no real card drawing capabilities and Top can only really do so much / you only run 3 of them.
The deck relies on top decking pretty hard, and giving it the option to not have to do that is pretty wild. I mean the SCG feature match was a good example of how durdly nic fit can be at times. Granted the player made <insert arbitrarily large number of play mistakes>, at the same time his cards were just totally useless. Brainstorm and the many shuffle effects the deck has help that -a lot-. You don't want to rely on Jace for brainstorm effects.
*Response to edit* Brainstorm's response to removal and counterspells is finding you something else they need to deal with. It's kind of a big deal in Legacy.
Ah: thanks Kich: that makes a lot of sense actually.
In fact, reminded me of an article I read about how Brainstorm, Ponder, and the ilk got better the longer the game went on.
I believe 2 Bayous is usually enough [I play 4 Badlands and 2 Swamps] DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT cut that 1 Stomping Grounds cause it will sometimes screw up your valakut math D:Quote:
Originally Posted by lambert101
As for the deck as Arianrhod has said time and again, you will need practice in tournaments. A HELL LOT of it, with plenty of losses before you get the hand of it and start mountain bolt like a bause :cool:
Edit: No you do not want firespout to spit on your huntmasters and wolf tokens :eek:
Hi all,
I'm from the Ithaca area and I've also been playing BUG Fit. My list is a bit different than the lists I've seen so far, so I thought I would post and ask for advice. The deck is a little slow in the early game and I don't think it has enough ramp. Any advice or even blatant criticism is welcomed (just be civil).
This deck is intended to be a more controlling version of Nic Fit. I'm attempting to build a traditional control deck with difficult to answer or must answer threats, cheap removal and the coupe de grace of card advantage. There are cards in the list that are perhaps slightly bizarre and I know people are going to ask about a few of them in particular, so I'll try to preemptively answer those questions.
I) The shroud creatures are threats that can win the game alone and are very difficult to deal with while also being targets for Green Sun's Zenith. Kodama of the North Tree and Simic Sky Swallower are the typical game enders of the deck because of their evasion and Thrun the Last Troll buys time in the early game (emphasis: Simic Sky Swallower not only tramples but FLIES).
II) Consecrated Sphinx is a must answer threat that will produce real card advantage if not answered immediately. He's also a flier and does just about everything else: he attacks, he blocks, he slices and dices and apparently he also makes julian fries!
III) Wofir Silverheart just straight up kills people. Nobody respects this guy. I guess opponents just don't realize I'm putting at least thirteen power on the board for five mana. He turns late game Veteran Explorers, Eternal Witnesses and other dorks into real threats in the form 5/5s (at least). Soulbond doesn't target so he pairs up well with the shroud creatures. He turns Consecrated Sphinx into a real threat while locking down the ground or just bashing in for 8. But, his greatest strength: the weird looks I get when I cast him...
IV) Jace. This guy is interesting and I really can't pigeonhole him into any one role in the deck, but I guess that's expected. At the absolute worst he forces opponents to expend resources dealing with him while I get some incidental card advantage and time. At the absolute best: well, I'm sure we've all lost to a Jace backed up by a Thragtusk, a Consecrated Sphinx and a Simic Sky Swallower.
V) Preordain vs Brainstorm. People have taken this as a very personal offense in the past, so I'm going to say this upfront: Brainstorm is a great card. Allow me to make myself abundantly clear: Brainstorm is a great card. One more time, with feeling: BRAINSTORM IS A GREAT CARD! I won't argue with that (want me to say it again?), but I will argue that Brainstorm isn't quite right for this deck. Or rather, I'll argue with it now that I'm comfortable believing that nobody will try to burn my house down or beat me with soap bar filled socks ala Full Metal Jacket. I wanted a one mana spell that will allow me to aggressively filter through my deck in early game. I don't personally like Top, but that's a PERSONAL preference!... Ugh, I don't want to argue over this card too. Look, let's just be friends and go our separate ways.
VI) Consume the Meek is another very interesting card. It's much better than most people expect. I've never been unhappy to draw this card though I don't think I would ever want more than one. It's five mana, the sweet spot of Nic Fit. It's instant speed, which can be relevant for several reasons. It compliments the main deck removal very nicely. It's a Plague Wind that nobody sees coming. It's been much better than Damnation primarily because it kills everything I want Damnation to kill without killing off my team. If you haven't tried it, please do so.
Creatures [15]:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Farhaven Elf (should probably be more than 1 and also be Coiling Oracle)
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Kodama of the North Tree
2 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Simic Sky Swallower
Planeswalkers [3]:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Instants [3]:
3 Abrupt Decay
Sorceries [14]:
4 Preordain
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
Enchantments [3]:
3 Pernicious Deed
SB:
Instants [1]:
1 Consume the Meek
Sorceries [6]:
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memorice
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
Enchantments [5]:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Engineered Plague
Artifacts [3]:
3 Relic of Progenitus
Thanks for reading (or not reading),
-G
Re: Brainstorm
There is a classic article by AJ Sacher on how to play Brainstorm:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/f...rainstorm.html
I know how to cast Brainstorm (at least as much as is allowed any mere mortal), but I wanted a card that I could cast AGGRESSIVELY. I need a card I can cast turn 0 or turn 20. Preordain fits that description.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
I think he was replying to the posts before yours, where EpicLevelCommoner just read what brainstorm does or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by i_wish_i_had_money_cards
Brainstorms, tops and preordains aside, Im no BUG expert but the only really obvious change I would make is add 2-3 coiling oracle (or maybe not cause they are best with brainstorm). At the least play wood elves instead of the elf you have cause the land etb untapped.
I like the Wolfir Silverheart idea actually, especially in a blue shell. He would actually be even better in the builds with Baleful Strix. I would however, try to get down to just 2 6/7 drops. Either 2 sphinxes, a sphinx and skyswallower. Or what I think would be ideal, prime titan and sphinx.
Okay, so I have a ton of stuff to reply to. If I miss something and you want my opinion, just re-post it or direct my attention to it =)
@Kanti -- Sylvan Library is bad in -all- Nic Fit decks. Every Nic Fit version runs Deed, and Deed makes Library really horrible, because Deed will almost always kill it (2 is in prime firing range). Top has a sweet synergy with Wood Elves, where you can tap out for an Elves or a GSZ->Elves, and then still spin Top because the land comes in untapped. I'd take the 3rd Top over Sylvan any day of the week. Feel free to try it though, or to run it for the time being if you only have 2 Tops and a Sylvan. But IMO 3 Tops is correct.
If I absolutely had to trim out 1 card to get it down to 60, it would be a Huntmaster. You don't want to cut any Forests or Wood Elves, because those are crucial to the mana base -- since it doesn't run fetches, the Wood Elves are all actually critical. They're fetchlands that block for a turn.
@Zirath -- Dovescape is hilarious, but bad. Here's why:
I've actually thought of Dovescape before, because I have a High Tide player locally that I love annoying with progressively more obnoxious and lethal forms of hate, just to make him rage. Because High Tide. Anyway, Dovescape has two serious problems:
1) Mana Cost
2) It makes birds
Steve's last round of SCG actually exemplifies the why of #1. He was playing vs Storm, in g3. He double Therapies, taking Dark Ritual and Lions Eye. This buys him enough time to drop Nether Void (supposedly the guy's face was absolutely priceless). Void kills Storm decks DEAD, and it only costs 4 (3B). Dovescape costs 3WWW. Obv. both are meant to be Rector'd in, ideally, but sometimes you're going to have to cast it. I'd rather go with the one that costs 4 and doesn't require triple white.
As for Birds -- you have GSZ, I'll grant, but otherwise you can't really make a whole lot of birds, and GSZ won't shuffle back in. Baneslayer is obviously the nuts, but it's very, very possible to triumphantly slam Dovescape and then proceed to die to a million pinpricks by dozens of birds. Dovescape encourages you to keep some number of Deeds in vs Storm decks, which is not really where you want to be. I'll sometimes keep in one Deed just in case of Empty the Warrens / fringe uses causing timing issues vs LED, but if you're on Dovescape, you probably have to leave in 2 or even all 3, just so you can have one in play before Dovescape happens.
@SirTylerGalt -- I've shifted to Future Sight builds lately, but those are still control oriented, just with an included combo engine under the hood. You can find those lists a few pages back. The biggest problem with BUG lists is that there is a dozen ways to build a blue Nic Fit deck, and nobody can agree on anything. If you're splashing red, it's for Punishing Fire or Valakut/Scapeshift. There really isn't anything else that's good enough in red to actually force people to WANT to play red (though a few straight Jund lists have popped up from time to time). White is much the same way. But how do you choose between Jace, Gifts, Future Sight, Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, Tezz AoB, Cunning Wish, etc. Blue has so many sweet engines that it's stupid hard to build an effective list that people will actually agree upon. Also, going blue extends your "core" by 4, because Brainstorm. That means you have even less room for fun and for engines. It's a really awkward situation that we haven't really resolved.
My best advice would be to look to Qweerios for BUG Control variants -- his latest is definitely in that ethic, and he's been having some success.
@Steve's on-camera match -- The only thing that he did explicitly wrong that match was the GSZ for full mana. Like, Sigarda or Tusk both win the game, but he was so far ahead on resources and time that he didn't need to walk into that Daze. Furthermore, he really, really wanted a shuffle there, if memory serves, because his Top was bad. Could easily GSZ for 1/2/3, dodge countermagic, get your shuffle, and still have mana left over for Top / Witness stuff. Steve also mulled to 5 game 1, which we didn't get to see on camera....they just cut to the match with them already playing. The Hymn g2 really hurt, but that was recoverable. Also, I agree with Timur here -- I think there was some stage fright going on. He played really well otherwise, from what I've heard -- he was 5-0 going into that match. Don't forget the bubble excitement too -- if he had won that round, he would have been able to double ID into top 8, so he was probably feeling some of the effects of that, too. Round 7 he lost to the RUG player that won the event, because the guy literally drew nothing but counterspells and just rode one Mongoose to victory after countering literally everything. I mean, it happens. That's the only way RUG can beat us, and sometimes they have that draw. Awkward, but them's the breaks. Steve still did really well....12th place for his first time playing the deck in a big tournament is pretty good.
Also, in case anyone was wondering, Steve was playing my exact list (using some of my cards, too....like the Deeds. Thanks for the compliment, Adam Prosak), with the only exception being the two O-Rings in the board, in place of the Mindcensors. Steve was complaining that the Mindcensors were useless, and I've been agreeing with that for a while...just haven't figured out what to replace them with yet. He'd been testing vs OmniTell on Saturday, and we agreed that O-Ring would still be useful vs Maverick, but would also give some additional outs to Show and Tell. From what I heard, there was next to no Show and Tell in the room....at least compared to how it has been lately. So, whatever. Mindcensors wouldn't have done anything anyway, so it was irrelevant. Expect Steve to post a report at some point in the next couple days.
Oh, also, they apparently recorded his round 5 2-0 vs Goblins, if you can find it anywhere on SCG's website (I couldn't). From what I heard, Moat MVP.
@Lambert -- Firespout's a horrible idea, because it hits your side of the field, killing Huntmasters, wolves, Thragtusks, and beasts. Also, Bonfire hits planeswalkers, where Firespout doesn't, (probably) kills Angels that have been Entreated where Firespout doesn't, and can dome people with lethal when you're on the beatdown plan. The problem with cutting the Stomping Grounds is that you're cutting into your green sources. Generally speaking, a Green producing land defines a keepable opening hand. Once you have green mana, you can play Explorers, Wood Elves, and GSZ for either of the other two...all of which fix your mana via more green (and black/red). You NEED green mana for that to happen, which is why you want 6 Taigas over the 4th Badlands. Also, keep in mind that the shock from Stomping Grounds is still less damage than most legacy decks do to themselves with fetchlands over the course of a game. It doesn't feel that way because it's an increment of 2 instead of smaller payments of 1, but that's all psychological. You might be able to get away with your plan of shaving the Stomping Grounds, but you're going to have a lot more questionable keeps as a result...you're putting it more in the hands of luck. Also, you're net -1 mountain, which means you need to be more careful with what lands you get when/you're more susceptible to flooding out of Valakut range/you're more liable to not being able to do enough damage (though it's rare when you need double Valakut + full mountains).
@Money_Cards -- Hi Gabe /wave
As discussed at Mythic, I think that the 2nd Con Sphinx is overkill. You have enough bombs, you don't need to risk drawing too many 5+ drops and choking on mana. I'd replace it with a Recurring Nightmare, because you can use that as a 2nd Sphinx, basically, by getting it back after they kill it. Same with your hexproof beaters, Tusk, Silverheart, and you can Witness-loop for....well, anything. If you can squeeze in the Coiling Oracles, that gives you some big game, too. We've already talked about most of these points (and I've agreed with most of them except Brainstorm), so I'll let everyone else comment and just stand here stolidly.
Well, that, and also nearly everything he did in game one. It looks like he had to mull down to six, but keeping the hand with Yosei, Recurring Nightmare, Therapy, no other creatures, and no clear way to ramp was the awful decision that led to the also-bad choice to call Delver of Secrets with his blind Cabal Therapy (I'm just guessing it was because he kept a criminally slow hand). Playing Faith's Fetters into a known Daze was the icing on the crapcake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I'm willing to write all of that off to on-camera jitters, but they were all mistakes.