[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

6/24/19 Legacy 4-0 (top 8 wanted to split as it was late)

edit: forgot to add my list

Main:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

2 Wrenn and Six

1 Sylvan Library

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will

3 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Waterlogged Grove
1 Fiery Islet
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter

Sideboard:

2 Ancient Grudge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Cindervines
1 Rough // Tumble
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Winter Orb
1 Izzet Staticaster


RD1 ANT Storm 2-1

GM1 - Slowed down my opponent with Ghost Quarter on their only black source swamp. Was able to stop opponents first combo attempt with FoW. Opponent Ad Naus’d down to 1 life and my hand of 3 stifles was enough to ensure they couldn’t storm through hand disruption.

- 2 Lightning Bolt
- 2 Tarmogoyf
- 1 Sylvan Library
- 1 Forked Bolt
- 1 Dismember
- 1 Wasteland
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 2 Cindervines
+ 2 Flusterstorm

GM2 - Stopped first combo attempt, and risked tapping out for one turn to land Cindervines when my opponent was on 4 cards. Turns out they drew the nuts twice in a row and killed me that turn.
GM3 - Landed a turn one delver. Opponent made a mistake of casting Swarm before duress. Hand of Bolt, Fluster, Spell Snare, Daze led me to victory.


RD2 Show and Tell 2-1

GM 1 - My opponent t1 SnT’d a Griselbrand and I had no FoW

- 4 Lightning Bolt
- 2 Tarmogoyf
- 1 Sylvan Library
- 1 Spell Snare
- 1 Forked Bolt
- 1 Dismember
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Cindervines
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 2 Winter Orb
+ 2 Surgical Extraction


GM 2 - Opponent didn’t know what I was playing as gm1 didn’t last long enough. Was able to land 2 Nimbles and counter his relevant spells. Game ended when I ghost quarter his mountain, and stifled his only activation of Sneak Attack.
GM 3 - Opponent spent a removal spell and double FoW to kill my T1 Delver. Left him on near empty. Landed a Wrenn and Six and waste land locked him out of the game.


RD3 Black Vise Burn 2-1

Was a less experienced player and actually helped them remember a lot of eidolon triggers and sequence spells correctly. (I used to play Burn)

GM1 - Had a land disruption heavy hand, and mono mountain burn did its thing, capped off with a massive Price of Progress.

- 1 Sylvan Library
- 1 Dismember
- 1 Wasteland
- 4 Stifle
- 2 Winter Orb
- 2 Cindervines
- 2 Flusterstorm
- 1 Rough // Tumble

GM2 - Opponent flooded out pretty heavily, and my Nimble and Cindervines was able to widdle him down with plenty of disruption in hand.
GM3 - Opponent was pretty mana screwed, and double Cindervines, Nimble took it home.


RD4 Standstill Merfolk 2-0

GM1 - An Early Nimble and Delver, a FoW for Standstill, and no lords from my Opponent got the win

- 4 Stifle
- 1 Sylvan Library
- 1 Wasteland
- 2 Red Elemental Blast
- 2 Ancient Grudge
- 2 Cindervines
(can’t remember if I boarded more than this, but I for sure did this at least)

GM2 - A t1 Delver. Had a large counter fight over my opponents Chalice of the Void on one, which left them nearly empty handed. I followed with a Wrenn and Six to waste his Mutavaults and keep him low on mana got there.


Conclusion

I was lucky to get paired against favorable matchups, and dodged DnT, Karn, and Maverick. Overall, though I was matched up against decks that are pretty resilient to land disruption, Wrenn and Six and my token Ghost Quarter really shined. W+6 even though they didn’t lock out our opponent most times, alleviated pressure from my life total as well as helping thin my deck and provide chip damage in very close matches. I think Fiery Islet and Waterlogged Grove is too much. There were a few hands I had to mulligan and situations that were sketchy to be in because daze was a dead card with them. I think I might go up a dual and cut one of them. Because the recurring card draw is nice when I can set it up. I would have liked to test against some of my worse matchups to test out my side board plan, but overall I was very pleased with how I played and how the deck performed for me. Let me know your thoughts.

Have played the following list in a small tournament (5 rounds) in Hamburg, Germany past saturday:

//Mana
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

//Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 True-Name Nemesis

//Permanents
2 Wrenn and Six

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

//Sideboard
1 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Cindervines
1 Electrickery
1 Entrancing Melody
2 Flusterstorm
1 Forked Bolt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hooting Mandrills
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Winter Orb

Match 1 vs. Sneak & Show
Didn't know what he was on before the round. First game I kept a balanced hand with Daze and Pierce but no Force, Dismember, Goose, Cantrip and Mana. Unfortunately I then started flooding out on lands and creatures and my opponent had one mana open when casting Sneak Attack with Force backup so I could only daze in order to prevent him from activating SA immediately and hope for a couple of Stifles from the top. Didn't work out, he sneaked in Grisel the next turn, took 7, then cast S&T for Omni, going to 5 in the process while I put Nemesis in and had a mana open to Dismember Grisel when it would come at me so that he would not draw 7 again (and also die in my backswing) as a last resort. He cantripped several times and then found Emrakul.

I boarded Flusters, Blasts, Vines, Mandills and one Extraction for some removal, TNNs and both Wrenns.

Second game was devastating for him, he had to go down to 5 cards and was very light on mana so I just stifled and wasted him out of the game while an insect beat him up. He eventually lost with no permanents on the table.
Final game was kind of similar to the second one. He mulled to 5 again, got denied some of his mana and two little gooses were going for it. At 12 life he tried to go for SA but got stuck in a wall of counters. That counterwar allowed me to thresh the vermin on my turn by wasting a land of his and that ended the match the very next turn.

2:1

My opponent was very unexperienced and sided out all copies of S&T and Omni since he thought I would blast them anyway. Told him that he will have no safe combo agains me at all and therefore should leave all the pieces in in order to get more attempts from his topdeck and overload my counters.

Match 2 vs. Burn
I got paired against a buddy of mine who usually plays some sort of blue control or Aggro Loam. Not this time. I kept a good hand for any given grindy matchup and got burned off of the table pretty quickly.

I had not much to board in but a lot I wanted to get rid of in the main deck, so I sided out 4 Stifles, 2 Wrenns and Dismember for 2 Flusters, Forked Bolt, Abrade, Vines (at least serves as removal for Eidolons, Vortex and/or Pillars), Mandrills and Melody (also more kind of a desperate move but still better than what I was siding out I guess).

Second game I started of with a Delver which he tried to shoot 3 times before I finally had to let him resolve. That shrank his hand and gave me time so I deployed Nemesis and connected several turns while just trying not to get raced (which was not too hard given he took so many shots on my insect).

Third game... well I guess I shouldn't have won here. He lead with Guide and Eidolon, both of which I could get rid off by dazing Eidolon and bolting Guide at the same time, giving him a two land lead. He then managed to resolve another Eidolon and bolted me the following turns while attacking. I was at 8 and had 3 lands in play plus one in hand when I pondered and got revealed Melody and Mandrills. So I played Mandrills to block the road and the very next turn gained control of the Eidolon with Melody. People around had some fun witnessing that play and luckily for me it was the very opening I needed 'cause I got to clock him now without dying in the backswings. I forced a bolt of him, putting me to 4 life and all I had left was Pierce and Daze, him being at 6 Life at that point against my Ape and his Eidolon under my banner. Got lucky again when he found no Fireblast in his final turn.

2:1

Match 3 vs. Elves
Facing a friend of mine who drove us to the tournament in first place and to whom I lent my Elves deck beforehand. Game 1 I tried to defend myself against an early combo kill and deployed a Delver pretty fast. But since I play Garruk Relentless in my Elves list so does my opponent this time and the Delver gets to fight the planeswalker before it could transform. I get to shoot down transformed Garruk but his board advantage is huge and him hitting a Behemoth from the top doesn't make it any better for me...

I sided out some copies of TNN, Daze and Pierce to add all removal from the sideboard as well as Mandrills and Cage.

The second game I mulled to 6 and found a hand with first turn Delver accompanied by two Dazes and Ponder and stuff, so I keep and cast the little wizard. Unfortunately, my opponent had to have exactly Cavern of Souls as his first land drop so my Dazes are completely worthless from than point of the game. On top of that my Delver refuses to transform at all during the game despite the use of Ponder (which I had to shuffle), so I got outclassed and overrun pretty fast here since my deck would not cooperate at all.

0:2

Match 4 vs. 5-Color Control
This pairing is against another good friend of mine who went to play the greediest deck in the history of greedy decks just for the lulz. We playtested against each other during the week and the matchup is as bad for him as you would expect when Canadian gets to get its hands on a five color mana base.
Attacking his mana is exactly the thing I'm doing here and despite me not being able to apply much pressure early on he never gets to cast or resolve anything meaningful here and so eventually the Goose is on the loose (and on his face).

Boarding here is Blasts, Orb and Abrade for Dismember, Delver and I think 2 of Daze and Pierce or so.

Second game doesn't get any better for him. Wrenn and Six and a Wasteland are lurking for him to try and grab some duals with his fetches. At the same time a Goose starts to pressure him and whenever he tries to get an answer, I counter or destroy it and W&6 recycle the Wasteland afterwards so that he keeps losing lands with every move he makes. Nevertheless he still has enough of those and floods out pretty hard.

2:0

Match 5 vs. Aggro Loam
Well, another pairing against a guy from my playtesting group... Once again I get to do all the things Canadian likes to do in game 1 so that my opponent can't resolve anything that could possibly annoy me and as he sighs in relief that I did not counter his KotR with 3 lands in the grave, I dismember it to make him scoop.

Boarding is pretty much the same as above aside from the fact that I also sided in my Surgicals for some stuff I can't remember right now.

I get to follow up the second game just the way the first turned out to go. I can keep him low on mana and counter his most important stuff. As Goose and Nemesis start to knock him out, I also get to Grudge his Mox Diamond and as he finally gets to toxic deluge my board, I ponder to find a way to deal the final 5 points of damage and find another duo of Goose and Fish so that I lay out the vermin once again. He finds nothing to deal with any of Goose or Nemesis and extends his hand.

2:0

So in total I finish 4-1-0, my loss being against the eventual winner of the tournament. Therefore my opp score is enough to put me in second place. Since there's no Top 8 nor Top 4 playoff after swiss rounds, I end on said 2nd place.

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Thoughts on the deck are:
- W&6 is totally insane. There's hardly any spot you would not want have them. Maybe I will add #3 to the main deck.
- Due to W&6 you'll be making much more land drops and therefore can easily run a larger number of TNNs without having them stuck in your hand, which is great.
- I think the Mandills in the sideboard are awesome, since they are somewhat bullet proof and evasion to me is worth way more than Goyfs bigger body right now. Might also add a second copy.
- Melody is fun. :D
- Cindervines have been kind of underwhelming to 'til this point. Dunno, both effects seem to have little impact or are overpriced. However, I think you would want some sort of permanent hate against combo.

For those who have been testing Wrenn and Six, how has it gone? I have seen a lot of lists running the 2x W&6 but I'm not sure if it is people just testing or are they the real deal?

I have also seen some lists not playing Spell Snare and just playing 4 Spell Pierce. Is Snare in a bad spot right now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by goliaththegreat

For those who have been testing Wrenn and Six, how has it gone? I have seen a lot of lists running the 2x W&6 but I'm not sure if it is people just testing or are they the real deal?

I have also seen some lists not playing Spell Snare and just playing 4 Spell Pierce. Is Snare in a bad spot right now?

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I think that W&6 have come to stay.
They provide better Brainstorms since you can get dead cards to your hand that BS trades for new ones and/or grab a shuffle effect if needed. They also allow Wasteland locks or simply additional land drops (which is way better than I first thought it would be -> it allows to play a higher curve and still be able to have open mana to react to your opponent's plays). W&6 are like Life from the Loam where you wouldn't need to skip draws or pay (1)(G) in order to use it over and over again.
At the same time they can get rid of Strix (therefore making Gooses great again) and other pesky stuff like Thalia (if you somehow manage to cast W&6 while Thalia is around), human-form Delvers and so on. So basically any way you use W&6, they will generate CA for you - which is great.
Last but not least, if you manage to get the emblem, you almost always win. And getting the emblem is not that hard if W&6 hit the board early enough and start to recycle a Wasteland since your opponent will hardly be able to do anything at all until you reach the ultimate. W&6 almost always exactly provide what Canadian need; they are mana denial, they give consistency to your own mana supply and draws, they can be removal and if not handled by the opponent, they are a direct win condition.
Honestly, I would rather play 3 than shave any from my list. They're so good!

The Snare vs. Pierce thing is as old as the printing of the latter, I guess. Currently, I like playing Pierce over Snare because there's only a few cases where Snare does something Pierce could not do or the deck could not answer otherwise. Snapcaster for example is just as dangerous as its trigger and pretty often Pierce will counter the flashback and you'll only have to deal with a 2/1 which should not be too much trouble in most cases. Same is true for Stifle on the trigger. Strix as another example can be shot in so many ways especially when having W&6 in the deck or is dodged by Nemesis or countered by Redblast after boarding. You can easily replace Strix for the likes of Thalia or YP here, they all are easy to kill and you just need to save a kill spell for them if possible. SFM as a final example can be stifled, bolted or handled postboard. And Tarmogoyf is hardly seeing play at all, so I wouldn't want to play a card more or less just in case my opponent plays Goyfs.
Most other targets for Snare can also be targeted by Pierce (Chalice, Counterbalance, Infernal Tutor, Blossom, ...) and pierce also helps against combos, in stack wars or to defend my win conditions if needed. It also has synergies with the mana denial plan as a whole as well as especially Winter Orb. It deals with planeswalkers, it deals with lock pieces like B2B or Moon. It's just so much more versatile right now in my opinion.

Note that Pierce > Snare is just my thoughts on the current meta game. If by tomorrow people start throwing around with Goyfs and stuff again, my mind might change in a heartbeat. ;)

RUG Delver got 9th, 17th, and 31st in the MTGO Challenge. All played multiple Wrenn and Six. The 9th place list is really interesting; 3 Wrenn and Six, 4 Hexdrinker, 1 Abrade, 1 Fiery Islet.

Hello folks. I thought I would post an update on my attempts to conquer the league metagame with RUG. Here is what I have been playing:

4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Magmatic Sinkhole

4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
3 Abrade
2 Lonely Sandbar
1 Wren and Six
2 Gilded Drake
4 Tormod's Crypt

The point of the deck was to have all the upside of the 4 color BURG delver decks while remaining 3 colors. Magmatic Sinkhole does a good Abrupt Decay impression by removing opposing Tarmogoyfs and planeswalkers as well as Gurmag Angler but obviously misses some artifacts and enchantments like Chalice of the Void. RUG Delver is definitely the deck to beat and people are playing decks like Humans and Burn that take advantage of Nimble Mongoose being a little too small and a little too slow. So the plan was to ground and pound with Tarmogoyf and clear the path with Magmatic Sinkhole. All in all, the deck has been moderately effective. In probably 20 or so leagues, I only did worse than 3-2 once, but only a couple 5-0's and a handful of 4-1's. If you want to check out some amateurish recordings I made, you can see my youtube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCME..._as=subscriber.

I played in the Legacy Challenge on Sunday. It started off well enough getting paired against 4 color control and winning game 1. I beat 4 color control 3 times in the last league I recorded but unfortunately I could not get there in games 2 and 3. Plague Engineer is unfortunately on the rise and True-Name Nemesis is not as effective as it used to be. Plague Engineer and drawing an unfortunate amount of lands did me in. I won the next two rounds but then lost to UW Mentor. I had him dead on board in game 3 but unfortunately lost to an unexpected Daze into a whole bunch cantrips into a Swords to Plowshares on his own mentor token that put him in a position to win. Then I lost Round 6 to Pellenik who always plays funky next level brews. He was on an UBr control deck and I was unfortunately unable to efficiently answer his Baleful Strix's and Plague Engineer did more work against me. Playing for hopefully 32nd place or better in Round 7 I lost games 2 and 3 to Aluren wherein he resolved Carpet of Flowers in both games and there wasn't much I could do.

All in all, I think that my current build is "okay" for the league metagame. Everyone is gunning for RUG and while I think my build does some things to next level average league players, Challenge opponents are much better and I will need a much more dynamic approach to prevail there. I'm not quite sure what I want to do but Wrenn and Six is a silly card and a third should be probably be in the main deck. A major strength of this deck compared to 4 color control is those opponents typically start by fetching basics or develop their mana in such a way that they can't just slam Wrenn and Six on turn 2. Another thing is what while I thought Hexdrinker in this deck to be a silly suggestion, I think it could actually work. It seems like it is feast or famine with regard to the mana in this deck. In Delver mirrors, you are struggling just to keep a land on the battlefield but in other match ups you have tons of mana thanks to Wrenn and Six. Hexdrinker at least has an impact on the board in tight mana games and does something in the games where we have tons of mana. It also has more play against Plague Engineer than True-Name. So I'm not sure about all the numbers but I am going to try a build that starts with:

4 Delver
4 Hexdrinker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wrenn and Six

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BKclassic

Hexdrinker at least has an impact on the board in tight mana games and does something in the games where we have tons of mana. It also has more play against Plague Engineer than True-Name. So I'm not sure about all the numbers but I am going to try a build that starts with:

4 Delver
4 Hexdrinker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wrenn and Six

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+1
I was suggesting that setup a month ago in this very thread.

Kitchen testing since then but I'm happy with it.

It requires a bit of practise tbh as Hexdrinker is not a Mongoose: every turn you'll have to assess if you spend 1 mana to pump him or play a cantrip/whatever.

Looking forward to reading your tests' feedbacks.

(3 Wrenn / 3 pierce is my setup)

SB used:

1 Clique
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Cindervines
1 Sylvan Library
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
1 Return to Nature
1 Rough // Tumble

Ralf

@Ralf - Generally speaking, I believe the way to play Hexdrinker is generally to level it up to Level 3 in one turn. Opponents will be trying to get us to sink our mana into Hexdrinker and then destroy it in response to the Level 3 activation. We can take advantage of this by playing Hexdrinker and just letting it sit. If we trade 1 for 1 with their removal, that's fine. It puts the opponent in a position where they basically can't afford to ever tap out because that gives us the window to get Hexdrinker to level 3 and then it's typically only a matter of time until we have a 6/6 Progenitus. Anyway, I'll test it out and make some recordings, hopefully sooner than later.

Maybe it is time to think in another direction too? I mean wotc just give us very interesting option - Elvish Reclaimer. It has some synergy with wren and hard to kill with bolt. Maybe it will be much more interesting than hexdrinker. But only hard testing will determine that.

Well I don't mean to spam this thread with references to Youtube page so I'll stop after this. But I did run a list with Hexdrinker through a league and record, just see the my link in my signature. I ran this list:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Hexdrinker
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Wrenn and Six

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Forked Bolt
2 Abrade
1 Null Rod
1 Cindervines
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Lonely Sandbar

While I did go 4-1 and ultimate Hexdrinker twice, I was not super excited about drawing the card, especially in multiples. It's just pretty clunky and Nimble Mongoose would have been better most of the time. With that said, I don't think sliding one or possibly even two Hexdrinker into a RUG delver list is an unreasonable decision and might even be good. My decision to try Hexdrinker was based on my desire to find a RUG build that ran 4 Tarmogoyf and 3 Wrenn and Six. Unfortunately, BURG tempo appears to be clearly the direction to go in for this configuration. The upside of Abrupt Decay and some black sideboard cards is very compelling. Dystopiaa's list from the last challange is basically perfect. The good news is that, unlike BURG Delver from the Deathrite Shaman days, the new build is much more green based and is much more like playing RUG Delver. Anyway, I'll leave further BURG discussion to the BURG thread. With regards to regular RUG Delver, I'm sure that the basic configuration (4 Goose, 2 Goyf, 2 TNN, 2 W6) is basically correct but I do think that Magmatic Sinkhole is the best 5th removal spell in despite the lack of synergy with Mongoose (a thresh'd Mongoose still can't attack through Goyf or Angler) and working in a Hexdrinker or two could be fine.

how come no one is playing 8 bolt plan with arcanist?

@KobeBryan that deck can't run green and also be aggressive. Arcanist is also quite unplayable alongside Stifle b/c it demands tap out and jam play patterns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

@KobeBryan that deck can't run green and also be aggressive. Arcanist is also quite unplayable alongside Stifle b/c it demands tap out and jam play patterns.

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Maybe becasue Wrenn and six took everything

That card is so overpowered

I am going to rock the 3 Wren list hat won the 100+ person event in japan at my weekly on Wednesday. Deck seems very well positioned with ancient grudge out of the board.

Looks like Maverick will make a comeback with Tempo decks trying to force their way into the Meta again.

Wren is good against Maverick!

The meta is in crazy flux right now, who knows what is gonna happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Wren is good against Maverick!

The meta is in crazy flux right now, who knows what is gonna happen.

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I would have to concur that this deck crushes Maverick right now. Wrenn and Six and True-Name are wildly good against them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Wren is good against Maverick!

The meta is in crazy flux right now, who knows what is gonna happen.

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Wrenn is so OP vs. slow greedy mana bases.

Does anybody have experience with W6 as a mainboard card? How often do you side it out? How good is it in general?

I really like the card in the 75 but I always imagined it as a SB card for Control and specific aggro decks (Delver and DnT). In many matchups the ping ability is simply irrelevant so W6 becomes a Loam. Loam without a Waste is quite underwhelming also. I feel like drawing multiples in those matchups would be devastating.

The main point I want to make is that I can easily see how a singleton W6 makes sense (PW typing for Goyf, random hoser against x/1, WasteLoam potential, Ultimate threat against UW) but wouldn't a card like Sylvan Library make more sense as a complementary grinder than a second copy of W6 that seemingly offers diminishing returns?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

Does anybody have experience with W6 as a mainboard card? How often do you side it out? How good is it in general?

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Did you jam a few games with 2+ W6 in your 60 ?

3 seems to be the actual trend.

Don't see W6 as only a recurring "wasteland" tool but rather as a not so bad CA machine:

1) It stabilizes your manabase (recurring fetchs/lands/waste)
2) You are not forced to play the land. You can also keep it for a later BS and make CA
3) It does handle a few creatures
4) Its ulty is "badass". Real. Period.

Usually you end up with more mana on the battlefield -> you can cast bigger CMC spells (TNN, even FOW etc...)

I board it out usually vs Combo. It stays in vs Tempo / Midrange / Control.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

Does anybody have experience with W6 as a mainboard card? How often do you side it out? How good is it in general?

I really like the card in the 75 but I always imagined it as a SB card for Control and specific aggro decks (Delver and DnT). In many matchups the ping ability is simply irrelevant so W6 becomes a Loam. Loam without a Waste is quite underwhelming also. I feel like drawing multiples in those matchups would be devastating.

The main point I want to make is that I can easily see how a singleton W6 makes sense (PW typing for Goyf, random hoser against x/1, WasteLoam potential, Ultimate threat against UW) but wouldn't a card like Sylvan Library make more sense as a complementary grinder than a second copy of W6 that seemingly offers diminishing returns?

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The card is amazing. Even if the recurring Wastelands or the -1 ability aren't very relevant, the +1 ability at least combos with Brainstorm and you can always dome your opponent with the -1. I think that Baku_91's maindeck from the last challenge is pretty much the baseline for how RUG should look right now (List) which features the Fiery Islet for additional synergy with Wrenn and Six. There are obviously match ups where it isn't very efficacious but overall power level of the card is overwhelming. It's pretty hard to imagine running less than 2. Sylvan Library obviously has it's uses but it typically does not impact the board like Wrenn and Six.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BKclassic

The card is amazing. Even if the recurring Wastelands or the -1 ability aren't very relevant, the +1 ability at least combos with Brainstorm and you can always dome your opponent with the -1. I think that Baku_91's maindeck from the last challenge is pretty much the baseline for how RUG should look right now (List) which features the Fiery Islet for additional synergy with Wrenn and Six. There are obviously match ups where it isn't very efficacious but overall power level of the card is overwhelming. It's pretty hard to imagine running less than 2. Sylvan Library obviously has it's uses but it typically does not impact the board like Wrenn and Six.

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Yeah, I agree here with this overall. I think the only matchup I really feel would suffer might be Miracles, given the lack of Mongoose and that Wasteland recursion is likely not ideal. However, Wrenn just ticking up is a sort of "pressure" in itself, so there is that.

Honestly, I think Delver itself might well be the worst Creature in the deck right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Did you jam a few games with 2+ W6 in your 60 ?

3 seems to be the actual trend.

Don't see W6 as only a recurring "wasteland" tool but rather as a not so bad CA machine:

1) It stabilizes your manabase (recurring fetchs/lands/waste)
2) You are not forced to play the land. You can also keep it for a later BS and make CA
3) It does handle a few creatures
4) Its ulty is "badass". Real. Period.

Usually you end up with more mana on the battlefield -> you can cast bigger CMC spells (TNN, even FOW etc...)

I board it out usually vs Combo. It stays in vs Tempo / Midrange / Control.

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I didn't buy them yet unfortunately and at the price they are at I am not sure how many I want. Right now I am thinking 1 main and 1 side but I might try to squeeze 2 in the main and free up some SB space. I mostly play 4c Delver so I'm psyched to get a working Mongoose setup with a postboard W6 + Blossom plan against control decks. This is my understanding so far about W6:

1) It's really good against control... Mostly Miracles and Grixis/4c Strix decks because the +1 buffers brainstorm and leads to a game winning ultimate and the -1 clears Strix, Snap, and Clique making way for Mongoose.

2) It's really bad against the classic combo decks like SnT, Storm and Reanimator but very strong against Elves, Infect, and can have it's moments against Depths because the ping ability and recurring Wastelands are a thing here.

3) It's great against some aggro decks like DnT and Maverick because the ping ability kills a lot of creatures and the +1 stabilizes your manabase but not so good against Aggro decks that feature 2+ toughness creatures like Eldrazi.

You say you keep W6 against tempo decks, does that include all flavors of Delver like RUG, BUG, and Grixis? Even on the draw? It seems to me like W6 has almost no targets to ping and that without a Wasteland it isn't a win condition. I would rather have something like a single Loam for those matchups and I would probably end up boarding W6 out all the time.

With all of that said I can look at TNN and safely assume that it is great against all Control decks, all Aggro decks, and pitches to FoW against combo. If I were to play a 2/2 TNN/W6 split or something mainboard, wouldn't it be strictly better to favor more TNN over additional W6?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

You say you keep W6 against tempo decks, does that include all flavors of Delver like RUG, BUG, and Grixis? Even on the draw? It seems to me like W6 has almost no targets to ping and that without a Wasteland it isn't a win condition. I would rather have something like a single Loam for those matchups and I would probably end up boarding W6 out all the time.

With all of that said I can look at TNN and safely assume that it is great against all Control decks, all Aggro decks, and pitches to FoW against combo. If I were to play a 2/2 TNN/W6 split or something mainboard, wouldn't it be strictly better to favor more TNN over additional W6?

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That was a rough idea for sideboarding plan.

You cannot really compare W6 to TNN.

TNN CMC is higher than W6. Sure it's on color (for FOW) but still 1 mana is huge (especially in RUG) and we are still over 22+ blue cards. Don't forget that pitching is a thing but with W6, you will end up CASTING your FOW (less CDA).
W6 does help casting TNN though.

TNN is "expected". Your opp will have a shit ton of removal for creatures (especially postboard).
W6 gives you another attack angle. PW are not always easy to answer for certain decks. And post board, it hinders your oppo (Should he pack anti PW as well, dilute his deck even further and force him to side in bad cards vs Tempo in general ?).

W6 grows Tarmo. It isn't always obvious but it was relevant here and there.

12 threats was a standard in RUG. W6 "adds" 2/3 more somehow.

It might just be a trend or not.

Test it out when you want/can.

Ralf

PS: TNN hype is high still I'm not sure we should play him (not to mention that I dislike this card).

Played in a 7-round event in China this weekend (repost from discord)
4 Delver
4 Goose
2 Goyf
2 TNN

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Bolt
2 Snare
2 Pierce
2 Wrenn

8 Fetchlands
3 Tropical
3 Volcanic
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Force of Negation
2 Surgical
2 Cindervines
2 Red Blast
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Cage
1 Abrade
1 Grudge
1 Orb
1 Submerge

R1 RUG Mirror LWL
R2 Miracles WW
R3 Merfolk LWW
R4 Eldrazi LWD
R5 Maverick WW
R6 Miracles WW
R7 UR Delver LWL

Placed 23rd / ~100

Notes:
- 4th Stifle should probably be Chain Lightning
- Cindervines performed really well as usual (The Pillar effect is gamebreaking vs Miracles. My round 6 opponent cast Back to Basics into my Cindervines, and rather than use Cindervines to kill it I used the Red Blast from my hand instead, because the damage pressure is so important. Of course if I didn't have the Red Blast in hand then Cindervines killing the B2B is the perfect option to have anyway. Against Eldrazi it killed Chalice/Ballista while making Tarmogoyf big)
- I like the 2 TNN 2 Goyf main and 2 in the board
- I like all the 2-ofs in the sideboard and probably Cage. The other 4 are more flexible or a meta call. Hydroblast is a possible consideration. Veil of Summer is also one of these options that seems like a strong card but is very narrow in application, so it's difficult to find a place for it, but I am thinking about how to fit it in the deck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Notes:
- 4th Stifle should probably be Chain Lightning
- Cindervines performed really well as usual (The Pillar effect is gamebreaking vs Miracles. My round 6 opponent cast Back to Basics into my Cindervines, and rather than use Cindervines to kill it I used the Red Blast from my hand instead, because the damage pressure is so important. Of course if I didn't have the Red Blast in hand then Cindervines killing the B2B is the perfect option to have anyway. Against Eldrazi it killed Chalice/Ballista while making Tarmogoyf big)
- I like the 2 TNN 2 Goyf main and 2 in the board
- I like all the 2-ofs in the sideboard and probably Cage. The other 4 are more flexible or a meta call. Hydroblast is a possible consideration. Veil of Summer is also one of these options that seems like a strong card but is very narrow in application, so it's difficult to find a place for it, but I am thinking about how to fit it in the deck

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Yeah, I played RUG in out last FNM and went 3-0-1.

I went for 3 'Goyf and 2 Mandrils instead of Mongoose. It was basically Baku_91's list from the recent Legacy Challenge. I just adjusted the sideboard some.

Obviously, small sample size, but indeed, I didn't miss the 4th Stifle. I beat a UB Delver/Ninjitsu deck, Infect, and Dragon Stompy, then taking an intentional draw, since I was rather tired and my opponent wanted to eat their food.

I think Cindervines is an absolute house of a sideboard card. I definitely would not have won vs Dragon Stompy without it. I think that, depending on your meta, Veil for Winter Orb is a possible swap, but it really depends on how many big mana decks you see.

Has anyone been playing with Dreadhorde Arcanist & Wrenn in RUG colors? I have been playing UR Delver in prep for GP ATL for about a month now to some solid success (fetching basic island T1 can be a real blessing).. Zombie Wizard has won me a ton of games I had no business being in.

I got my hands on a few copies of Wrenn & Six and was trying to figure out the best way to convert the solid UR delver cantrip-heavy tapout shell to RUG to support Wrenn and Goyf over Young Peezy. Here's where I landed:

Land (18)
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Creature (12)
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Dreadhorde Arcanist
3x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis

Planeswalker (2)
2x Wrenn and Six

Instant (19)
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
2x Force of Negation
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt

Sorcery (9)
2x Chain Lightning
4x Ponder
4x Preordain

Sideboard (15)
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Cindervines
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
1x Ashiok, Dream Render
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Flusterstorm
1x Hydroblast
3x Pyroblast
1x Winter Orb
1x Submerge

MD Blue count: 28 in order to support 6x Forces

With both Wrenn and Arcanist I find it's a lot more likely to naturally make your third land drop without having to spend a cantrip to find it which makes both TNN and hard cast Force of Negation online a turn earlier.

The deck only plays 5 Green cards main (2 Wrenn 3 Goyf), I typically lead on Volcanic >Delver/Preordain/Ponder. The goal is to use all of your mana every turn and just accrue more resources than your opponent while leaning on 10 mana-free counterspells and a fast clock. If you get to slam Arcanist or Wrenn t2 with multiple pieces of free interaction, it feels hard to lose.

I've been playing every flavor of Delver decks for ~7 years but this is the first time we actually have true card advantage. With both Arcanist and Wrenn netting you free cards, you can often find yourself in the mid-game against other fair decks with 2+ more cards in hand than your opponent before you ever cast a Brainstorm. This is certainly a luxury I've never had in Delver shells and it makes Brainstorm and Ponder feel even more busted.

This shell is similar in layout to the 4c Delver list Mengucci and others have been playing successfully, but can run on 2 less lands (I think) without the splash and does a better job of abusing Dreadhorde Arcanist. They're using Decay as their 'catch-all' where I'm leaning on more Forces. The real loss from Black to me is Plague Engineer which is an insane card in many matchups. Thoughtseize was kinda meh for me in that shell as fetching black early can be a real liability. Edict has lost a bit of turf in my opinion as the Depths decks are now running so many small creatures.

Fun fact -- Retracing Submerge multiple times from W6 emblem in response to a fetchland is the most fun interaction I've had so far. The emblem is real. Fun times with Surgical as well.

Noticed Liz Lynn playing what looked to be a very similar last at the Team Open last week upon review of the Twitch stream, but I guess no one else is actively down this path.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eldub

Noticed Liz Lynn playing what looked to be a very similar last at the Team Open last week upon review of the Twitch stream, but I guess no one else is actively down this path.

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Think it's worth noting that she seemed to be on a Hierarch version of the deck. I don't know how it compares to a more traditional threat suite, but it does seem like a good way to decrease reliance on the graveyard if you're playing Arcanist. The tradeoff is then losing some number of Mongoose/Goyf, but it definitely feels like you'd want some number of mana dorks if you're still looking to run 5 two drops.

Of note, I think UR Delver is going to be the better Arcanist deck due to the extra cantrips (4x Preordains) and being better situated to use Bolts proactively. Compared to RUG, you're losing access to green creatures and W6 but none of those are cards that make Arcanist better (could even argue some of those make Arcanist worse.)

My main issue with UR has nothing to do with Arcanist really, he is a house. I'm struggling with YP being lackluster in the face of W&6 being everywhere and the deck feeling too threat-light without it. The version above is playing the same suite of 1-mana cantrips and bolts, just a different 2-drop threat suite and the Trops to support it. Maybe it's just worse than UR, that's what I'm trying to work through.

I do love Noble Hierarch in general, but this is not the time for it imo.

Hi guys,

I have the feeling that Canadian became again top tiers (even maybe the best deck currently).
W&6 really pushed back the deck to the place it deserves, and even cards like cindervine improved the deck.

My point is about nimble mongoose. It is the weakest card in the list. Am I the only one to have this feeling ?
Why are we still playing this card ?

The whole point of goose back in the days was to get a turn 1 pressure and try to get all the way with it. It was a significantly big creatures also (it was played before tarmo was printed).
But I believe power level is more important to put pressure than shroud. We all believe this : who will tell that goose is better than delver ?

Based on this, I started my tests with Hexdrinker instead of mongoose. The two alternatives to goose seem to be pteramander or Hexdrinker. I chose Hexdrinker as it put more pressure early, does not rely or deteriorate grave, optimize Mana utilization, and basically prevent the opponent to tap out.

Waiting your thoughts guys.

Regards

Hi there, this is Baku_91

Some comments,

-Hexdrinker is unplayable. W6 kills it and you need to invest too much mana in a deck that does not have it.
-Mongoose is outclassed by too many creatures these days + it's a nonbo with W6
-I'm struggling vs elves and depths, what is the best antielves card (no splash for plague engineer) ??? Any suggestion? I'm trying ee as a versatile card but not sure if it is good enough. Vs depths, I 'm trying a couple karakas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baku_91

Hi there, this is Baku_91
-I'm struggling vs elves and depths, what is the best antielves card (no splash for plague engineer) ??? Any suggestion? I'm trying ee as a versatile card but not sure if it is good enough. Vs depths, I 'm trying a couple karakas.

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I feel like your last Challange list should have a pretty reasonable elves match-up. A bunch of removal, Wren and Six, and Hooting Mandrills are all pretty good against them. You could probably adjust some slots into Forked Bolt and Submerge if you don't want to go the Rough/Tumble or Blazing Volley route. I've had some success with Gilded Drake against Depths. Obviously sideboard slots are a premium given the diversity of the metagame and RUG has relative narrow sideboard options compared to 4 Color Delver.

Actually I think matchup vs elves should be decent also yes, but not favorable. You need your spell pierces/ spell snares to match their spells (don't run enough cards in the sb to sb them out), otherwise you end up with dead cards vs an horde of 1/1's :( W6 helps a lot though, even if they kill it usually ends up being a 2 or 3x1 .

Gilded Drake, interesting...but isn't Karakas just better ? Repeatable efect that cannot be discarded...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baku_91

Hi there, this is Baku_91

Some comments,

-Hexdrinker is unplayable. W6 kills it and you need to invest too much mana in a deck that does not have it.
-Mongoose is outclassed by too many creatures these days + it's a nonbo with W6
-I'm struggling vs elves and depths, what is the best antielves card (no splash for plague engineer) ??? Any suggestion? I'm trying ee as a versatile card but not sure if it is good enough. Vs depths, I 'm trying a couple karakas.

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Hi Baku.

I dont really agree with the w6 argument, because then delver also dies to W6. Besides not all the decks play W6.
The mana argument is a relevant point. I guess rushing the level UP is not the good way to play the card. I will come back After more tests with it.

Agreed for goose. Any ideas to replace it ?

I also lost to elves. I decided, according to my local metagame (elves, dnt, maverick, pyromancer deck) to md 2 forked bolt. In sb cindervines helps a lot against choke.

Hi frenchy,

The difference with delver against w6 is that you play it otp t1 and have at least 1 chance to flip it. With hexdrinker, you usually allow 3 turns (unless you go all in, then you allow 2, but then you are timewalking yourself). Actually , I agree delver is also bad vs W6 , but not as bad as hexdrinker. Plus, we all know the absurd amount of games in other pairings that delver wins on its own, I do not think same can be said for Hexdrinker , too mana intensive as mentioned . If you are upping it, you are not playing cantrips / removals / counters , if you are not, then well, you have a 2/1 which does not even pitch to fow :(

Basically it goes against the principle of this deck, mana efficient creatures and then forget about them and counter/kill anything relevant that stops them. Hexdrinker is a good mana sink, but as mana sink, it is not efficient in mana terms. Hope I explained myself correctly !

Edit: about replacing gooses, I currently play 4 delver 4 goyf 2 tnn 1 hooting mandrils, working fine to me . I really think 12 creatures are too much in most pairings, so I always play 11 + one or two in the sb + sylvan library in the sb (currently a sulfur elemental in the sb, it goes in against UW decks and W taxes of course) .

Is there any reason most lists dont play with 4 W6. I feel like it's just so insane right now I couldn't imagine not wanting 4 in a deck like this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rood

Is there any reason most lists dont play with 4 W6. I feel like it's just so insane right now I couldn't imagine not wanting 4 in a deck like this.

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I've played RUG and 4c Delver with up to 3 copies and I feel the opposite. I think as time goes on and the meta adapts to W6 we will see less copies in Delver decks (probably around 1-2 copies). I just don't find it very agressive for a Delver decks and it fits much better in 4c Control IMO. Yes recurring Wastes wins some games but aside from that the card is clunky in multiples and has huge diminishing returns past the first land it returns (for Delver).

I agree with you that the card is hot right now and in some metas you might want to load up on then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baku_91

Hi there, this is Baku_91

-I'm struggling vs elves and depths, what is the best antielves card (no splash for plague engineer) ??? Any suggestion? I'm trying ee as a versatile card but not sure if it is good enough. Vs depths, I 'm trying a couple karakas.

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Vs elves the best thing what you can do is to run sb izzet staticaster. It is very versatile and strong because can kill multiple creatures. At best it can kill all board, and if they have decay for him it is acceptable and almost always 2 for 1 or even more. Electrikery, forked bolt and other sweepers is now that good, cause elves recovers very quick and only staticaster says - found decay in time or die. Staticaster also shines in dnt match for same reasons. I dont understand why people not running it actually.
Also in this match grafdiggers cage is thing that protects vs NO and zenith.

As for depth, if you need versatile card it is submerge (it is very strong now, like old days. Maverick, mirror, 4c delver, elves). If you need specific answers for this mathup only then you can run dominate or pithing needle (which is versatile). And i agree that Gilded Drake is a thing too.