[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

Yesterday I finally managed to get some testing with the deck. This is what my list looks like right now:

/Protection\Disruption
:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother


//Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

//Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Moongoose

//Lands:
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

[To be honest, yesterday I played a few matches with the full set of smother and without ghastly demise, and my manabase had 2 seas and 2 bayous, basically because I'm missing the 3rd sea and was too lazy to proxy it. Never had color screw problems, anyways, so I guess this accounts for the strength of the deck.]

I only played preboard, against Aggro-Loam and a Countertop+Show and Tell variant. I have to say that the deck is a blast to play, and can get out of seemingly impossible situations with the pure strength of its card quality. As you can see I tried Spell Snare, and I have to say that I quite liked it. I'm still not completely decided on the disruption package, but the card earned a bit more consideration from me.

On the other hand I have to say that sometimes the deck loses steam with victory already in sight. I lost a couple of matches where I almost could ride a goyf to victory, only to have it removed or answered by an opposing goyf I couldn't remove. This is where burn came handily in Canadian versions, I guess. With this problem in mind, I would love to find some space for 2 Cliques or Trygon Predators, that can be useful in different situations while providing a body and evasion.

I will probably have some more testing this evening, and let you know how it goes.

Canadian Thresh got 4th Place at SCG Nashville. And the top 16 was littered with various Green decks. Thoughts?

Yes. Trygon Predator is a house in today's meta.

Still, I don't know what was up with Preordain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scordata

Still, I don't know what was up with Preordain.

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Oftentimes with Ponder, Canadian Thresh, which is very land-light, is faced with two choices, neither of which is particularly appetizing:

a) Shuffle up and draw a card at random.
b) Draw the card you want, spend two turns drawing garbage. Even if there is a land to shuffle your deck with, it's still garbage because you are on Canthresh and need about 2 lands to operate. If it's a cantrip, you are bleeding tempo by keeping U tapped down over two turns.

Preordain allows you to get the cards you want from the top of your deck without drawing garbage if you don't have a fetch or second cantrip. This is probably worth seeing one less card.

Stifle is pretty good at breaking up Survival chains, countering Basking Rootwalla, and keeping a Vengevine in the yard. Spell Snare trumps Survival, Jitte, Mongrel, and Moeba. More important is the Ben Wienberg is one of the best Canthresh players out there.

Hey,

what is your game plan against tribal decks like Goblins or Merfolk? Is it just more removal post board, four copies of Engineered Plage in the SB, Hydroblast against the Goblins, Darkblast as recurring removal, Pithing Needle for their Vial, Firespout like David Lopez did in the Eternal Weekend 2010, or ...?

For the Goblins MU the Plague would be the best in my opinion, but with all those lords it could be too slow against Merfolk. What do you think is the best way to beat them?

@royal: as you can read from previous posts there a few cards in testing for the tribal MU.

There's a debate on dreadnought, which I personally like really much, it has won me lots of games simply for its surprise effect.
No one suspects you to play a trampling 12/12 instead of your classical little mongoose.

The other card which in discussion is disfigure, which for me has been OK, nor spectacular nor stellar, simply OK.

Please don't play firespout in any deck featuring goose... or confidant. Unless your boarding out both (almost never happens).

Could someone give me an idea of the bgw rock MU?

Does Ben Wienburg have an account here? If so, what is his name?

Furthermore,
Ponder > Preordain
3 cards > 2 cards

"Canadian Thresh got 4th Place at SCG Nashville. And the top 16 was littered with various Green decks. Thoughts?"
What do you mean by this? Especially with: was littered with various green decks. Do you think green decks have a overall positive matchup against us, even with the red splash?
Tempo Threshold is one of the best decks, if played correctly. There are just only an handfull of people who do. Is this an english expression aswell? Not sure. Well, you get my point. Every mistake that u make, can cost you the game and therefore (normally) leads to a bad tournament result. I think that's one of the reason's Tempo Threshold not Tier 1 anymore. There aren't (good) enough players, playing it. Especially when you compare it with Vengevival/Merfolk/Goblins or anything else.

Did anyone have some testing results?

About the BGW Rock MU:
It's harsh. You'll either need a lot of pressure and a decent clock (Nimble Mongoose, threshed early) or u'll need Dark Confidant.
We have some sideboard cards to aid you, but it's not much. Besides some Mind Harnes/Submerge and/or Needle's, there isn't much else we could sideboard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

Does Ben Wienburg have an account here? If so, what is his name?

Furthermore,
Ponder > Preordain
3 cards > 2 cards

"Canadian Thresh got 4th Place at SCG Nashville. And the top 16 was littered with various Green decks. Thoughts?"
What do you mean by this? Especially with: was littered with various green decks. Do you think green decks have a overall positive matchup against us, even with the red splash?
Tempo Threshold is one of the best decks, if played correctly. There are just only an handfull of people who do. Is this an english expression aswell? Not sure. Well, you get my point. Every mistake that u make, can cost you the game and therefore (normally) leads to a bad tournament result. I think that's one of the reason's Tempo Threshold not Tier 1 anymore. There aren't (good) enough players, playing it. Especially when you compare it with Vengevival/Merfolk/Goblins or anything else.

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Ben Wienburg is one of the best players that plays legacy. He has a reason he's playing Preordain over Ponder.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

Does Ben Wienburg have an account here? If so, what is his name?

Furthermore,
Ponder > Preordain
3 cards > 2 cards

"Canadian Thresh got 4th Place at SCG Nashville. And the top 16 was littered with various Green decks. Thoughts?"
What do you mean by this? Especially with: was littered with various green decks. Do you think green decks have a overall positive matchup against us, even with the red splash?
Tempo Threshold is one of the best decks, if played correctly. There are just only an handfull of people who do. Is this an english expression aswell? Not sure. Well, you get my point. Every mistake that u make, can cost you the game and therefore (normally) leads to a bad tournament result. I think that's one of the reason's Tempo Threshold not Tier 1 anymore. There aren't (good) enough players, playing it. Especially when you compare it with Vengevival/Merfolk/Goblins or anything else.

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Ben is Firstshot
But you do realize that while ponder sees more card, preordain allows you get rid of the bad cards. If you ponder and find only one card you like, you are stuck with 2 bad cards, but if you preordain you can potentially draw into something good.
Also, that kind of player you are describing is Ben.

@ lorddotm

And u are, Mr. Friendly guy?
"Ben Wienburg is one of the best players that plays legacy. He has a reason he's playing Preordain over Ponder."
Don't you think I have reasons for playing Ponder over Preordain? Thanks for asking.

@ Ssbm Rocks1

U probably mean: Ben is shotgun. It's a joke.....

I'm sorry I offended you guys for not knowing Ben Wienburg. I tend to play my own game.
I still would like an answer to my first question.
Does Ben Wienburg have an account here? If so, what is his name on Thesource?

About the deck (since it's a deck discussion thread):
Disfigure's are OK for me. I need more testing to be absolutely sure about this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

There aren't (good) enough players, playing it. Especially when you compare it with Vengevival/Merfolk/Goblins or anything else.

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That's interesting, did the Canadian Thresh players all get abducted, dissapear by magic or were they transformed into faeries?
Seriously, it's also an option to acknowledge that TT isn't as well positioned in the metagame as it used to be instead of resorting to fallacies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

How is he supposed to know about this player?

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Ben did an interview with Star City Games some time ago, which you should've read as a Canadian Thresh player.

Regarding the discussion, Preordain is on par with Ponder. As far as I can speak from my own experience, Ponder is better at finding a particular kind of card (eg Force or lands), whereas Preordain is way better mid to lategame, as you don't need a fetchland to abuse it.

I play 1 Preordain and 1 Trygon Predator in the flexible slots, but could imagine swaping the two cantrips.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by royal

Hey,

what is your game plan against tribal decks like Goblins or Merfolk? Is it just more removal post board, four copies of Engineered Plage in the SB, Hydroblast against the Goblins, Darkblast as recurring removal, Pithing Needle for their Vial, Firespout like David Lopez did in the Eternal Weekend 2010, or ...?

For the Goblins MU the Plague would be the best in my opinion, but with all those lords it could be too slow against Merfolk. What do you think is the best way to beat them?

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As you can see from my list, I'm playing Plague. I've always found it to be the best anti-tribal card. Vs Goblin it is often sufficient to stick one to win the game. Even if they have ways to circumvent it, they start to have a lot of dead draws (basically, all x/1 gobbos except for matron, plus siege gang) and this give you time to find the second one or simply win.

Against Merfolk is not directly gg, but it helps slowing down their clock a lot, and lets you keep your removal for the most important targets. In addition, if you manage to stick it before they have a lord down (or you manage to remove the lord thereafter) it gives them 8 basically dead draws (ok, adept still cantrips, but it becomes really subpar). Again, this gives you time to find the second plague, accumulate enough advantage with a Confidant, or simply win.

Pithing needle can also be quite good, in particular vs merfolk (vial, mutavault, commander), It is also a good meta choice in general at the moment, hitting survival, planeswalker, manlands, deed, top, etc.

I haven't tested the 'nought plan at the moment, though. Many people are definitely enthusiastic about it, so it deserves some consideration, too.

Yesterday I managed to get some more testing with the deck. This is what I played:

//Protection\Disruption:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother


//Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

//Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Moongoose

//Lands:
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


I tested against an UW Tempo variant, Baneslayer Control and an Uwr Walker Control variant. Basically a lot of control, which is fine, since it allowed me to focus on improving my playstyle against the archetype.

I am definitely impressed by the amazing solidity of the deck, I even managed to win a game against the UW Tempo from a mulligan to 4 of Waste, Waste, Fetch, Fetch drawing incredibly off the top, and in general I was always able to achieve the right mix of mana, threats and control.
I was mostly impressed by my games against the Walker Control. Despite having something like 9 dead cards in the maindeck (6xremoval + 3xspell snare) I almost always managed to win the relevant counterwars and ride a moongoose or goyf to victory (I only lost one game where my opponent managed to land a Jace, protect it, and accumulate insane CA).
I am definitely satisfied by my maindeck now, and still have to tune my sideboard. Some number of Pithing Needle should probably find their way in, since the games I lost were from jitte, planeswalkers and Baneslayer control playing maindeck relic of progenitus.

Possible sideboard:

3 Extirpate
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Mind Harness

Finally, Pithing Needle gets some recognition (in my sideboard) aswell. It's probably one of the strongest cards in my sideboard, nearly as good as my other artifact (Phyrexian Dreadnought).
I believe Pithing Needle is a must in any sideboard, to be honest. The card can win games against Random.decks that need an activation of an artifact or creature (Tradewind Rider F.E.). The card gives answers to Belcher, Sensei´s Divining Top, Engineered Explosvies, Planeswalkers, Deed, EE. The list goes on and on.
I really believe it should be an auto-include in any sideboard in any metagame. Well not any metagame if your metagame looks like this: Zoo, Tempo Threshold, Ichorid and Staxx or any other deck that isn't harmed by Pithing Needle.

@ Cthuloo
Why do you prefer to go +1 land, -1 Ponder?
Furthermore,
I wouldn't play Bayou for the reason that you can get OH (openinghands) with Bayou and Wasteland with an hand full of blue spells. I personally would not risk this, because having a mulligan can be really bad for the deck.

About mulligans to 4 and winning games. I did multiple, though I normally just loose.
I had a game where I mulliganed to 4, against Eva Green. I was on the draw, my opponent Thoughtseize'd me. So I was stuck with 3 cards in my hand by then and still won the game. I had a (lucky) turn 2, Dark Confidant and another Dark Conifdant at turn 3. It just shows how strong the card is.

@ Nessaja

I have to disagree with you that Tempo Threshold isn't as well positioned in the metagame as it used to be. I believe my results prove you wrong, I believe that the last results (known) with the deck by other players prove you wrong.
The difference is the appearance in tournaments. Whereas Merfolk/Goblin have 7/8 players at a regular 45 player tournaments, usually resulting in 1/2 top8 places for the deck. Tempo Threshold will only have 2/3 players max. I'm not even talking about whether these players can actually play the deck in a correct way.

@ Ssbm Rocks1

I thought u were joking, thanks for the information.

Some other things.

By the way, if you win a game with a mulligan to 4/5. Try to use it in your advantage. Try to crack them mentally (this is no joke) by repeating it over and over again. It doesn't matter what their OH is, or what your OH is. You basically won game 2 already by doing it.
Another way to win games is by mentioning that your opponent made a mistake the previous turn or even in the first turn. Asking him why he did it, and what he learned by it. Your opponent will get uncomfortable, meaning that they will make more mistakes in the future (they are not sure about themselves anymore).
When I play Tempo Threshold I tend to play very concentrated with zero emotions, or atleast I try. It is hard for them to get a read from me. I can send false informations, by bluffing a Stifle. For example: Grabbing your land, tapping it, untap it (n your hand). Think for 5 seconds. Smile at your opponent (not necessary), and pass the turn. Preferably with a Tropical Island ofcourse. This is a situation where I already have a Nimble Mongoose on the table, ofcourse.
I'm not sure if this wins games, but my creatures tend to be on their half of the table. I'm sitting usually upright, bowed towards them. This usually works when I play against inexperienced opponents.

You not only win games because a deck is strong or because you have insane topdecks. You can also win games by the way you're playing the deck or playing magic (in general).

My next post will be about Engineered Plague.

I'm contemplating making this deck.

However, I have a question: how does this deck fare against graveyard hate? I mean, you run:

- Ghastly demise --> does nothing after a Crypt or a Relic
- Nimble Mongoose --> pretty underwhelming after a Crypt or a Relic
- Tarmogoyf --> Relic hurts it quite a bit, Crypt not so much

All in all, it seems that graveyard hate are a must counter, right?

Also: how does this fare against Merfolk? is the matchup winnable preboard? (because I'm guessing that those E-Plagues in the side, with counter backup, will work nicely on them).

You cast ghastly demise in response to activations of relic/crypt blowing up but crypt is terrible against this deck relic is quite good because it can tap to remove a card and not fire immediately but you can always hold stifle mana up in case they try to crack relic and draw a card you can make them do this by casting a tarmogoyf or a ghastly demise that they can't answer easily so they pop it and here's where stifle becomes a very useful card. Spell piercing a turn 1 relic is also an acceptable play but I wouldn't waste a FoW on it unless you absolutely need to if your hand is full of GY based cards or something or another or its lategame and both of you are in topdeck mode and you have a random FoW in your hand.

Quote:

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@ Cthuloo
Why do you prefer to go +1 land, -1 Ponder?
Furthermore,
I wouldn't play Bayou for the reason that you can get OH (openinghands) with Bayou and Wasteland with an hand full of blue spells. I personally would not risk this, because having a mulligan can be really bad for the deck.

About mulligans to 4 and winning games. I did multiple, though I normally just loose.
I had a game where I mulliganed to 4, against Eva Green. I was on the draw, my opponent Thoughtseize'd me. So I was stuck with 3 cards in my hand by then and still won the game. I had a (lucky) turn 2, Dark Confidant and another Dark Conifdant at turn 3. It just shows how strong the card is.

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Actually, I went -1 Ponder, -1 Spell Snare, +2 Spell Pierce. I like my counter suite right now, and never felt the need for the fourth Ponder. I was also used to play 4 BS + 3 Ponder in Ubr faeries and never regretted not having an extra cantrip.

Doing some back-of-an-envelop math, having Waste+Bayou and no blue sources should happen around 2% of the time, I think I can live with that. On the other hand I like the to be able to fetch a Bayou when I already have an U-Sea and a Trop, since then a single wasteland can't cut me off a color. As a nice bonus, it helps against Extirpate and Choke (two cards you always risk to run into, at least in my meta.

About mulligans: the mulligan to 4 was an extreme example, that's not going to happen very often, but still the deck responds well to an aggressive mulligan style. Dark Confidant is of course awesome.

@Lorgalis: as Dark Ritual pointed out, relic can be annoying if dropped the early game, since can shut our moongeese off Threshold. If they drop it lately, then it's a joke, since even if you can't stifle the second ability, you will refill your graveyard very quickly (and the same hold for crypt, of course). Like DR, I also think that it's a good idea to counter a relic only if landed t1 (though I may consider also forcing it, depending on what my opponent is playing ad what I have in hand). But, to be honest, if the best my opponent has to board against me are a couple of relics, I'll be more than happy with that.

Thanks for the answers.

However, as roughly 1/4 of my meta is Merfolk, would you reccomend BUG? Or is that matchup too difficult?

It totally depends on the other 3/4 of your metagame, to be honest. How cheesy it may seem.

@ Cthuloo,

I was referring to my list in comparison with yours.
I would never cut a ponder in the mainboard for a land, no matter what.

No time to write a post about Engineered Plague yet, but it will come.