[Primer/Deck] Pox

Hi Guys,

I'm new to The Source, but I've been playing Pox for more than 5 years now I think. Usually I'm lurking around in the Pox Primer on mtgsalvation, but I figured, lurking around here too might be worth it ;)
I used to play a list very similar to Reid Duke's except for the Nether Void (I don't own one) but I've been changing the deck now, in order to better compete with Miracle. Here's what I came up with. Would love to get some input from you guys :D

Below is a copy from a post I made on mtgsalvation.

I've been working on my list the weekend, and added Fetchland/Top to my deck, in order to smooth out the top decks of Pox.
I was mostly goldfishing, to see how the hands play and feel, and playing agains an older Team America list.
So far the deck feels much better to play. I had less hands where I felt like I had no options.
Here is my list:

Lands 22
6 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs

Disruption / Removal 22
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
2 Pox
2 Spinning Darkness

Creatures 4
3 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit

Other 12
3 Dark Ritual
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Empty the Pits

My thoughts so far:
Top/Fetchland/Crucible is so powerful. I love having the control over what my deck does, instead of being controlled by what my deck does.
Spinning Darkness is a cool card. Being able to cast 2 spells a turn, instead of only 1 is so great. The deck feels more like being able to catch up if it is behind.
Empty the Pits is new to my deck. I'm still trying to figure out if it is any good. So far, I had 1 game I'd lost if I hadn't played Empty the Pits. On the other hand, I played many games, where I never drew it, and the usual suspects (Bloodghast and Factory) where enough to finish the game. But it feels like it is a good card to win grindy games.

I 'discovered' a line of play new to myself, and I would like to discuss, if this opening move is anykind of useful:
On the play, I found myself having IoK, Top and Dark Rit. Do I:
a) play land, IoK and keep DR for a more explosive T2/T3
b) play land, DR, IoK, Top / Look at top 3 to establish the Top and ensure the next draws are useful?

Play b feels like I'm doing more, but I'm unsure wheter I'm doing something relevant.

Btw: Sideboard is not final, but currently its this:

4 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spinning Darkness

Edit: Question: How do I format decklists / how do I link cards here? :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charon666

I 'discovered' a line of play new to myself, and I would like to discuss, if this opening move is anykind of useful:
On the play, I found myself having IoK, Top and Dark Rit. Do I:
a) play land, IoK and keep DR for a more explosive T2/T3
b) play land, DR, IoK, Top / Look at top 3 to establish the Top and ensure the next draws are useful?

Play b feels like I'm doing more, but I'm unsure wheter I'm doing something relevant.

Btw: Sideboard is not final, but currently its this:

4 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
3 Duress
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spinning Darkness

Edit: Question: How do I format decklists / how do I link cards here? :D

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Play B, without question. The more you do with less resources the better. In fact, if you can draw land and drop land for the first 3 turns, you're gold.

I'd drop 1 Pox and go 4 Hymn to Tourach. That is also a lot of Crucibles. I'd go 2 Crucible and 1 more Innocent Blood. Crucible isn't needed early game where you have no lands in your yard, it's needed later when you've Poxed a few times. I've found Dark Ritual to Crucible on the play to be 'asking for trouble' vs. certain decks.

I find it's best to use Dark Ritual for double spell plays vs. a single spell, which is why I like your turn 1 Play B scenario. The exception being Dark Ritual Liliana. That play is so strong it's worth risking a Force of Will.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Play B, without question. The more you do with less resources the better. In fact, if you can draw land and drop land for the first 3 turns, you're gold.

I'd drop 1 Pox and go 4 Hymn to Tourach. That is also a lot of Crucibles. I'd go 2 Crucible and 1 more Innocent Blood. Crucible isn't needed early game where you have no lands in your yard, it's needed later when you've Poxed a few times. I've found Dark Ritual to Crucible on the play to be 'asking for trouble' vs. certain decks.

I find it's best to use Dark Ritual for double spell plays vs. a single spell, which is why I like your turn 1 Play B scenario. The exception being Dark Ritual Liliana. That play is so strong it's worth risking a Force of Will.

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With fetchlands an early Crucible is not bad. One fetchland in the yard is enough to keep the lands coming. I'm playing a quite low number of lands, compared to the lists I've seen so far (only 22 in comparison to ~25 lands).
I feel I need the crucible or the top to compensate this. Running 3/3 feels right. (Do you have more insight on this topic?)

I would love to include Sinkhole again in my list, but I cant seem to find the space.
What is the 'best' number of win cons you should run? Maybe I could drop 2 Bloodghasts to fit more disruption?
I guess I might drop a Pox for the 4th Innocent Blood.

I'm playing in a local tournament in 2 weeks (and I've no idea of the meta :/ ). I'll try to write enough notes to give a useful report :D

I've been crushing with this list:

http://deckstats.net/decks/8920/148264-loam-depths-2/en

Needs a Tabernacle though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charon666

What is the 'best' number of win cons you should run?

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For control decks, the power of the win-con determines the number in my opinion. Traditional old-school control decks amass resources over time and then drop a massive 3 turn clock or less. 4 turn clocks are easy to accomodate now in Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker so if your clock is 3 turns or less, 4 win cons.

Pox however is not a traditional control deck. Its win cons have to be cheap so ultimately, the clocks are more on the 7 turn flavor. With weaker threats, you need to run more. I'm of this mindset and never run less than 8 threats in my Pox builds. I'd consider running 6 if my only threats were Tombstalker and either Desecration Demon or Master of the Feast, but threat redundancy is essential in a meta with lots of removal. My meta is such an environment so 8 hard to kill threats is more secure.

My latest list. I played to 6-3 is last SCG Worchester and 7-3 at Legacy Champs, lost my last round at Legacy Champs to a friend I felt I would normally beat, would have liked to win that one for the top 16 finish. Any thoughts, comments, suggestions, or questions are welcome.

2 Bloodghast
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
3 Entomb
4 Crop Rotation
4 Small Pox
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Raven's Crime
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquizition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy

1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

SB:
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
2 Disfigure
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Extirpate
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Chains of Mephistopheles

Thanks for posting your new list, I was thinking about your old one the other day. Have you been liking the maindeck Pernicious Deeds?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Play B, without question. The more you do with less resources the better. In fact, if you can draw land and drop land for the first 3 turns, you're gold.

I'd drop 1 Pox and go 4 Hymn to Tourach. That is also a lot of Crucibles. I'd go 2 Crucible and 1 more Innocent Blood. Crucible isn't needed early game where you have no lands in your yard, it's needed later when you've Poxed a few times. I've found Dark Ritual to Crucible on the play to be 'asking for trouble' vs. certain decks.

I find it's best to use Dark Ritual for double spell plays vs. a single spell, which is why I like your turn 1 Play B scenario. The exception being Dark Ritual Liliana. That play is so strong it's worth risking a Force of Will.

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I updated my list using your input. Last week I could play a few matches and was very content with how the deck worked. This wednesday I hope to test against a UW Miracle deck, and on sunday I can see how it works in a tournament.
Here's the new list:

Lands: 25
6 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cabal Pit
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs

Disruption/Removal: 22
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
2 Spinning Darkness

Other: 13
1 Nether Spirit
1 Bloodghast
1 Empty the Pits
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Senseis Divining Top
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Dark Ritual

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charon666

I updated my list using your input. Last week I could play a few matches and was very content with how the deck worked. This wednesday I hope to test against a UW Miracle deck, and on sunday I can see how it works in a tournament.
Here's the new list:

Lands: 25
6 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cabal Pit
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs

Disruption/Removal: 22
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
2 Spinning Darkness

Other: 13
1 Nether Spirit
1 Bloodghast
1 Empty the Pits
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Senseis Divining Top
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Dark Ritual

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I like this list. :cool: My only personal change would be to drop the 3rd Sensei's Divining Top and go 4 Dark Rituals. Top Decked rits can feed Cursed Scroll, Top activations, Mishra's Factory Armies, and delved Empty the Pits. However, if you're in a meta that really is good at killing SDT somehow, then the multiples is good. However, seeing multiple tops on the field will make you cry when they pithing needle all of them. :frown:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

I like this list. :cool: My only personal change would be to drop the 3rd Sensei's Divining Top and go 4 Dark Rituals. Top Decked rits can feed Cursed Scroll, Top activations, Mishra's Factory Armies, and delved Empty the Pits. However, if you're in a meta that really is good at killing SDT somehow, then the multiples is good. However, seeing multiple tops on the field will make you cry when they pithing needle all of them. :frown:

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I need some more testing to get a better feeling for the exact numbers.
I usually use the following estimate for card numbers:

4 of = I want it early or in my starting 7. multiples are no problem
3 of = I want it early to mid game, not nessessary in my starting 7, I dont want multiples
2 of = I want it mid to late game, I dont want it in my starting 7
1 of = feeling lucky?

Maybe this is wrong for the 3 and 2 ofs?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by beez

Thanks for posting your new list, I was thinking about your old one the other day. Have you been liking the maindeck Pernicious Deeds?

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I love them, they are the easiest way to catch up if I fall behind on board especially against decks I cant afford to go 1 for 1 with like elves, or young pyromancer. It is also nice to always have outs to random things. I actually played against a B/W Helm deck at Legacy Champs where he started game 1 with Leyline of Sanctity and Leyline of the Void, Pernicious Deed took care of that before Helm could be activated. I will also hold back cards in some situations to allow for a Deed blow out and still have answers for any follow-up threats.

I've played Mono B Pox quite extensively a few years back, now I'm about to get back into Legacy again. Luckily, the deck has not changed that much, except for Liliana who definitely has to be a real powerhouse (unfortunately with the corresponding price tag). Looking at the recent metagame I see Burn decks all over the place, so I was wondering whether you feel that there's a need to prepare for this matchup (interestingly it's not even covered in the primer), or is siding in a couple more copies of Spinning Darkness enough to get the edge in this matchup?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matthias

I've played Mono B Pox quite extensively a few years back, now I'm about to get back into Legacy again. Luckily, the deck has not changed that much, except for Liliana who definitely has to be a real powerhouse (unfortunately with the corresponding price tag). Looking at the recent metagame I see Burn decks all over the place, so I was wondering whether you feel that there's a need to prepare for this matchup (interestingly it's not even covered in the primer), or is siding in a couple more copies of Spinning Darkness enough to get the edge in this matchup?

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nethervoid flat out murders them, trinisphere also really hurts them a lot..and yes, spinning darkness too..
i've always had at least 2 spinning darkness in my 75 or 76..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matthias

I've played Mono B Pox quite extensively a few years back, now I'm about to get back into Legacy again. Luckily, the deck has not changed that much, except for Liliana who definitely has to be a real powerhouse (unfortunately with the corresponding price tag). Looking at the recent metagame I see Burn decks all over the place, so I was wondering whether you feel that there's a need to prepare for this matchup (interestingly it's not even covered in the primer), or is siding in a couple more copies of Spinning Darkness enough to get the edge in this matchup?

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I'm running 4 Spinning Darkness (2 main, 2 side board) for Burn and UR Delver. Siphon Life might be another addition against Burn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charon666

I need some more testing to get a better feeling for the exact numbers.
I usually use the following estimate for card numbers:

4 of = I want it early or in my starting 7. multiples are no problem
3 of = I want it early to mid game, not nessessary in my starting 7, I dont want multiples
2 of = I want it mid to late game, I dont want it in my starting 7
1 of = feeling lucky?

Maybe this is wrong for the 3 and 2 ofs?

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Nah it's about right. I'd rather see Sensei's Divining Top when it's top deck mode. Hence why I'd run two. What's more, you have no benefit running multiples. Much like Crucible, hence why i'd never run more than 2 of each. 1 of is for your nuclear bombs. They cost a lost of mana as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charon666

I'm running 4 Spinning Darkness (2 main, 2 side board) for Burn and UR Delver. Siphon Life might be another addition against Burn.

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Unless you know your meta is majority red decks, I'd never side against burn. It's like siding against ONLY Dredge. Best to board against deck archetypes instead of just decks. I've never won against burn, but I've only fought burn once in my meta. He kind of curved balled everyone and got first place but off kilter decks tend to do that. From what I've seen, the best burn hate is Sun Droplet. Unfortunately, you'll need to run 4 against burn and in my sideboard, that's not worth the space for my meta. There's also no point running less than 4 since you have to see it opening hand. The beauty of 4 is that you can 'over gain' life that is lost with 2 on the field.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Nah it's about right. I'd rather see Sensei's Divining Top when it's top deck mode. Hence why I'd run two. What's more, you have no benefit running multiples. Much like Crucible, hence why i'd never run more than 2 of each. 1 of is for your nuclear bombs. They cost a lost of mana as well.

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Now I see where your numbers are coming from. Thats why I run 3 Tops (your call for 2 Crucible was right though). I like to have the top before going into topdeck mode.
It feels like playing from behind, when top comes too late, as I have to play top, look at the top 3, put the solution I need on top, then draw and next turn to the same. I'd rather play top when I'm still having solutions in my hand, and prepare my next turns. Also I can use early fetchlands for the reshuffle. When getting top later in the game, chances are I have no fetchlands in play/in my hand. With an early Top, I also can shuffle away excess Tops whereas a later Top would only allow to shift excess Tops through my top 3, as you can't usually afford to draw a fetchland instead of business, at least in my experience.
Well, thats my reasoning for running 3 Tops.
The difference between running 2 or 3 also is not that big. I'll keep my eyes open to when I'm drawing/seeing too many Tops instead of something usefull.

Chalice of the Void is good against Burn in my list. I bring in Sphere of Resistance game 2, and focus on mana denial. Last time I played this match-up I think I beat him with his own Sulfuric Vortex. It seems like it's a close match-up, so little things can help, like Spinning Darkness or Syphon Life. I agree that it's not worth the sideboard space to run something like Sun Droplet. I might be adding Spinning Darkness to my board to hedge a little against red decks, they seem to be growing in popularity.

My latest list... Going back to Mono Black for consistency, and I just don't know what to play when thinking about Bg Pox.

Creatures (1)
1 Nether Spirit

Spells (23)
3 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
4 Dark Ritual
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole

Other (11)
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Nether Void
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Liliana of the Veil

Manasources (25)
1 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
8 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
2 Damnation
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Engineered Plague
2 Pitching Needle
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Leyline of the Void

Pretty stocklist, some numbers might change. Not sure about the SB... Any suggestions? Also, what do you guys think about Thoughtseize over Hymn? With Treasure Cruise around I hate helping them: pinpunt discards seems better.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ntropy

Chalice of the Void is good against Burn in my list. I bring in Sphere of Resistance game 2, and focus on mana denial. Last time I played this match-up I think I beat him with his own Sulfuric Vortex. It seems like it's a close match-up, so little things can help, like Spinning Darkness or Syphon Life. I agree that it's not worth the sideboard space to run something like Sun Droplet. I might be adding Spinning Darkness to my board to hedge a little against red decks, they seem to be growing in popularity.

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I once had a build where I main decked 4 Sphere of Resistance in place of 4 Hymn to Tourach for a 'strong arm' prison form of Pox where it REALLY hurt decks that used the stack. Unfortunately, that full LD dedication screwed me up if my opponent managed to stick a threat because my own Innocent Bloods suddenly became 3 or more cmc and the symmetry of the Sphere started to hurt. Now that my sideboard has Ensnaring Bridge, I REALLY can't use the Sphere :frown:

And I really loved its mana deny ability too... Dedicated LD Pox from what I'm aware of was Vaka Pox using Vindicate as a super catch all LD card. Is there a way to do it without splashing I wonder.