[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

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Originally Posted by Dia_Bot

First of all, that's unfortunate about the tournament. But it happens sometimes. The mistake you made is one I've also made in the past (and on a feature table in a GP on top of that.. :( ), the only thing you can do is learn a lesson from it and never make the same mistake again I guess :).

Secondly, about the sideboard:
-Xantid swarm: i'm a huge fan of running Xantid Swarm in a sideboard. They have had a place in my sideboard in 90% of the tournaments I attended running storm in the last 4 years or so. I also side them in against miracles even if they always keep in some way to remove them because they evade a number of popular counterspells (flusterstorm, spell pierce,..). I just love to have an answer to top floating a force or snapcaster -> counterspell/flusterstorm.

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I've been a xantid swarm fan for years, but nowadays it only sees play against blue combo decks (s&t mainly) and Miracles. In my meta all the players leave at least 3 swords in plus engineered explosives. Also, if i played it, it would be sideboarding out some discard spells like Kai does. After testing a lot, i concluded that i couldn't rely on xantid to face counterspells because of its vulnerability and that playing all the discard spells would be a better way to do it. I tested it and the results were better. Maybe in a big, international event i would sideboard them in.

So my question is: does it deserve 3 slots in my sideboard if i only really need them against show and tell?

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Originally Posted by Dia_Bot

-Carpet of flowers: never been the biggest fan of this card, it's a good ritual and it helps against softcounters but I've always found them to narrow to justify sideboard slots. They are great against UR Delver and such tempo deck but to be honest our UR Delver matchup really isn't bad so I'm not inclided to play them.
-(3) chain of vapors: Depending on how many permanent answers you run it's very much okay to up your CoV count to 3, I've done so in the past and depending on the meta that might be a fine choice (like you said in case you have a high chance of running into leyline of sanctitiy, otherwise 2 should be fine).
- Krosan Grip: I'm actually not the biggest fan of krosan Grip in the sideboard. 2G is hard against lockdecks (D&T, MUD, Pox,...) so the only matchup where I really see them worthy is against miracles. In that case would rather add a 4th Abrupt decay instead of the 2 Krosan Grip (especially if you're planning to run 3 CoV).
So, I hope I could help a bit by sharing my insights on the sideboard.

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I'm not a carpet fan neither, but i'll test them seriously for a couple of weeks just to see the results. And talking about Krosan, it's true that 2G is a high cost, but they are fantastic against miracles! Playing 2 top +3 decay +2 krosan I hardly ever lose against miracles, so i'll keep those cards. Maybe i would like to play the third top.

I looked for a TNT thread and didn't see one, so I assume this is the right place for Burning ANT as well. I'm going to GPNJ and wasn't planning to storm after a poor 6-3 performance with ANT at GPDC, but since the delver mirrors all look so miserable I figure it's time to count to 10 after all. Still, with Counterbalance, Eidolon, and Thalia as maindeck hate cards I can expect to see, I'm trying to figure out the best game 1 configuration. I'm considering playing something like this list, but I'm trying to decide if the Burning Wishes are good enough. In particular having access to Massacre for Thalia and maybe something like Reverent Silence for Counterbalance and Eidolon seems like a good place to be (although finding the Volc and the Trop in order to wish for Silence is gonna be tough)

Thoughts? Am I better off just chalking up the game 1's where Eidolon lands? I expect Burn to be a significant portion of the Day 1 metagame and I don't have any byes.

Greetings Storm Troopers!

I am new to the dark side. I just played my first tournament with ANT last week, going 3-1 :) I am really excited to play it again this week, and thought I would appeal to the community for advice on my build, side-boarding, as well as some general questions I had after reading through the entirety of the thread. For reference, here is the list I played:

1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Trop
1 Volc
2 Seas
4 Deltas
3 Misty
1 Verdant

4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

4 G Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

1 Ad Nauseaum
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Sensei's Divining Top

SB:
1 SDT
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
1 K Grip
2 Massacre
1 Tendrils
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseaum

How do you feel about this board for the following meta:

Here are decks from my meta that I can expect to be present every week: UR Delver, Burn, BUG Delver, Miracles, Lands, UWR Delver, some show and tell (usually Omnitell), Deathblade, ANT or TES, and a chalice deck.

Here are decks that I have also seen: Dragon Stompy, DnT, Reanimator, SnT, Grixis Delver, Bant, Merfolk, GWb Humans, Jund, RUG Delver, Cephalid Breakfast, Elves.

Also, here is how I would plan on side-boarding against the major players in my meta. Is this correct:
UR Delver (without stifle/ waste)
+1 Tendrils, +1 Cov
-1 Swamp, -1 Ad Nauseaum (could be preordain to still have explosive plays)

Miracles:
+1 Tendrils, +3 AD, +1 K Grip, +1 SDT, +1 Empty
-1 C Rit, -2 Lotus Petal, -2 Preordain, -1 Cabal Therapy, -1 Duress
*I was wondering if the second Ad Nauseum here might be an ok idea? My logic being that it would increase our t2 viability to go off pre-countertop lock. I also am not sure about X Swarm here, seems to be mixed with great stormers on both sides of this argument. It seems to me like it is better to leave them with more blanks in the deck.

UWR Delver
+2 Massacre +2 Chain of Vapor (maybe all 3?)
-2 Preordain, -1 C Therapy, -1 Swamp (maybe Ad Naus? I think they have 4 Bolts)

Deathblade
+2 Massacre +2 Chain of Vapor (maybe all 3?)
-2 Preordain (they have little discard I think), -1 Cabal Rit, -1 Durres

Burn
+1 Empty +1 Tendrils
-1 Ad Naus -1 Swamp

BUG Delver
+1 SDT, +3 CoV, +1 Empty, +1 Ad Nauseaum
-1 Duress, -2 Cabal Rit, -2 Preordain, -1 Cabal Therapy

The first main change to my list is the Ad Naus in the board, I'm just not sure how useful it is for me, and if it is too hard to run 2 Ad Naus with PIF, Tendrils, and Possibly Empty (though I can't imagine why I would run all at the same time). Anyway, I would love some advice on siding with this board, and other possible changes.

I had a few other lingering questions that came up after reading through the thread:

-Does extirpate seem like and OK option to prevent miracles from floating a fluster/ hard counter? It could also be good against reanimator and maybe other fast combo.

-Do people side Empty against UR Delver? It seems bad to blow a hand and have a pyromancer stave you off.

-Is the second Ad Naus in the board good against miracles? I was thinking it would be good against BUG, Discard heavy decks, and combo mirrors/ fast combo decks. Also, when it is brought in, is PIF ever sided out (due to CMC concerns)? @Sawatarix, I would love your input as I got the idea from looking at some of your lists.

-To the new Lightning Bolt idea, isn't bolt just worse the Chain of Vapor? Sure, it might buy a little more time against Delver decks, but so can Chain, and it also hits pesky permanents, and can do storm tricks. Couldn't Grape Shot even be better in a removal slot as it plays better with the deck design? Also, if Bolt is there for pesky removal isn't a single B Wish a better out that can also double as business?

Thanks for reading and dealing with the queries of a storm newb. Any and all help is appreciated!

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Originally Posted by Jeff

I looked for a TNT thread and didn't see one, so I assume this is the right place for Burning ANT as well. I'm going to GPNJ and wasn't planning to storm after a poor 6-3 performance with ANT at GPDC, but since the delver mirrors all look so miserable I figure it's time to count to 10 after all. Still, with Counterbalance, Eidolon, and Thalia as maindeck hate cards I can expect to see, I'm trying to figure out the best game 1 configuration. I'm considering playing something like this list, but I'm trying to decide if the Burning Wishes are good enough. In particular having access to Massacre for Thalia and maybe something like Reverent Silence for Counterbalance and Eidolon seems like a good place to be (although finding the Volc and the Trop in order to wish for Silence is gonna be tough)

Thoughts? Am I better off just chalking up the game 1's where Eidolon lands? I expect Burn to be a significant portion of the Day 1 metagame and I don't have any byes.

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Hello Jeff,

first of all good luck to you @GPNJ. In my opinion and it is also the opinion of many others here (I hope^^), Burning Wish looks better on the paper than he really is in the deck. There are a lot of drawbacks concerning off-color, no PiF loop and so on... I am sure that the best ANT list is still the typical UB one with at least 2 Preordains. We have to ignore Burning Wish here. But if you really want to play him, which is of course still valid, you should go down to 2 copies and cut one Therapy, the Gemstone Mine has to be Badlands and I would add 2 Preordains in the 1 Therapy/1 Wish slots. Furthermore, I would never play Void Snare since it is a shitty card. We need instant speed bounce. And you certainly need only one Massacre, which I would replace with one Thoughtseize.

By the way: Also keep in mind that you can win through Eidolon at 17 life with the regular PiF-loop.

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

Hello Jeff,

first of all good luck to you @GPNJ. In my opinion and it is also the opinion of many others here (I hope^^), Burning Wish looks better on the paper than he really is in the deck. There are a lot of drawbacks concerning off-color, no PiF loop and so on... I am sure that the best ANT list is still the typical UB one with at least 2 Preordains. We have to ignore Burning Wish here. But if you really want to play him, which is of course still valid, you should go down to 2 copies and cut one Therapy, the Gemstone Mine has to be Badlands and I would add 2 Preordains in the 1 Therapy/1 Wish slots. Furthermore, I would never play Void Snare since it is a shitty card. We need instant speed bounce. And you certainly need only one Massacre, which I would replace with one Thoughtseize.

By the way: Also keep in mind that you can win through Eidolon at 17 life with the regular PiF-loop.

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Thanks for the response. I agree that Burning Wish isn't a great card, but I'm trying to figure out ways to not scoop to Eidolon game 1. I can't imagine having the 17 life to pull that off. They're going to bolt you turn 1 or guide you t1 or t2, and you'll probably have to fetch or probe. Sure it could happen, but it's not likely. Are y'all just hoping to avoid Eidolon entirely? The burn matchup used to be a breeze and now it really sucks.

Also, Void Snare is obviously only something you would play in a Burning Wish version, Obviously you want chain if you're siding stuff in, but I did 6-3 the last SCG DC with this list as constructed. Snare is fine as a way to beat unexpected leylines and shit so you don't have to always hedge and bring in answers against decks that shouldn't have them.

A second Ad Nauseam against Miracle is fine like every other business spell.
Overloading their countermagic with a lot of must-counter spells is one way to beat miracles.
However, in Prague Eternal in my feature Match i defeated Miracle Control with my an old friend - young pyromancer,again.During the entire match i had the feeling that there is almost no way to loose.

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Originally Posted by Jeff

Thanks for the response. I agree that Burning Wish isn't a great card, but I'm trying to figure out ways to not scoop to Eidolon game 1. I can't imagine having the 17 life to pull that off. They're going to bolt you turn 1 or guide you t1 or t2, and you'll probably have to fetch or probe. Sure it could happen, but it's not likely. Are y'all just hoping to avoid Eidolon entirely? The burn matchup used to be a breeze and now it really sucks.

Also, Void Snare is obviously only something you would play in a Burning Wish version, Obviously you want chain if you're siding stuff in, but I did 6-3 the last SCG DC with this list as constructed. Snare is fine as a way to beat unexpected leylines and shit so you don't have to always hedge and bring in answers against decks that shouldn't have them.

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Burn MU doesn't suck. It was excellent and is still pretty good now. They only have 4 cards to interact with the combo preboard without draw effects or library manipulations. The odds are against them. I wouldn't hope to avoid Eidolon but rather to play against Burn because it is usually an easy thing.

I was still talking about the Snare in the Wish context, and even within the borders of wishing it, it is still bad. Chain of Vapor postboard is enough if you want to bounce things. I wouldn't want to waste slots on mediocre cards against very rare plays. Sometimes we have to drop the first game against hateshit or whatever but then we can come back with the best board and win the remaining 2 games.
-1 Snare, -1 Swarm +2 Chains would be a suggestion

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

Burn MU doesn't suck. It was excellent and is still pretty good now. They only have 4 cards to interact with the combo preboard without draw effects or library manipulations. The odds are against them. I wouldn't hope to avoid Eidolon but rather to play against Burn because it is usually an easy thing.

I was still talking about the Snare in the Wish context, and even within the borders of wishing it, it is still bad. Chain of Vapor postboard is enough if you want to bounce things. I wouldn't want to waste slots on mediocre cards against very rare plays. Sometimes we have to drop the first game against hateshit or whatever but then we can come back with the best board and win the remaining 2 games.
-1 Snare, -1 Swarm +2 Chains would be a suggestion

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I guess our experiences are just different then. I played 10 games against burn this week at our testing session and I swear he had Eidolon turn 2 every game, and even when I boarded in 6 cards that could answer it (over the top), he'd draw 2 or 3 of them. Plus postboard he had pillars too, which meant I had so many cards I had to answer.

I was fine chalking up the game 1's to Thalia when she was the only common maindeck hate card I might run into, but Miracles, D&T, and Burn all play essentially game 1 trumps that we fold to outside of rare situations. I'm not sure I'm particularly interested in paying what it costs to get to NJ and enter the tournament only to face maindeck hate with no answers all day. It's not like Death and Taxes or Miracles are suddenly easy matchups post board where I can count on winning games 2 and 3 if I get spiked game 1.

Burning wish is just weak and R, might be decent back in 2012

You can just ignore Burn MU in real life, they have ~40% to have it with no manipulation, you have ~40% to have Cabal Therapy and ~30% to kill T2

edit: yeah too many opp T2 wins, that's why I was runnng Bolts previously and still run Thoughtseize, at local level they just mulligan into their T2

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Originally Posted by Jeff

I guess our experiences are just different then. I played 10 games against burn this week at our testing session and I swear he had Eidolon turn 2 every game, and even when I boarded in 6 cards that could answer it (over the top), he'd draw 2 or 3 of them. Plus postboard he had pillars too, which meant I had so many cards I had to answer.

I was fine chalking up the game 1's to Thalia when she was the only common maindeck hate card I might run into, but Miracles, D&T, and Burn all play essentially game 1 trumps that we fold to outside of rare situations. I'm not sure I'm particularly interested in paying what it costs to get to NJ and enter the tournament only to face maindeck hate with no answers all day. It's not like Death and Taxes or Miracles are suddenly easy matchups post board where I can count on winning games 2 and 3 if I get spiked game 1.

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If your opponent had turn 2 Eidolon 10 games in a row then he got extremely Lucky. It is very, very unlikely for that to happen with no library manipulation whatsoever. I'm fully on board with CabalTherapy. Burn was a great matchup that has now become merely a pretty decent matchup. It's worse at fighting us game one than both miracles and thalia.decks as the one has countermagic and the other has heavy mana denial... Burn has neither. They have a faster clock than both those decks, but we are usually even faster.

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Originally Posted by nevilshute

If your opponent had turn 2 Eidolon 10 games in a row then he got extremely Lucky. It is very, very unlikely for that to happen with no library manipulation whatsoever. I'm fully on board with CabalTherapy. Burn was a great matchup that has now become merely a pretty decent matchup. It's worse at fighting us game one than both miracles and thalia.decks as the one has countermagic and the other has heavy mana denial... Burn has neither. They have a faster clock than both those decks, but we are usually even faster.

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True, Thalia and Miracles both have way more support for their hate cards, but Burn's game 1 hate card literally wins the game on it's own. If they resolve it, you lose. I understand there's a mathematical chance that you could kill them with with 3 rituals and a tutor for past in flames only dealing yourself 16, but I've tested the matchup a lot and I've never pulled that off. Between whatever their turn 1 action is, combined with your own fetches and potentially probing them before you realize your life total matters if you're on the play, it's incredibly unlikely.

And against D&T a resolved Dread of Night gives you all the time in the world to sculpt a win. We don't have anything against a resolved Eidolon to that same effect. Or against a multiple Eidolon draw.

This is true, a resolved Eidolon is practically game over in game 1 (anecdotedly I will say that I have beaten a game 1 Eidolon, a maneuvre that included having Tendrils, Past in flames + rituals in hand). I also like having 4 Cabal Therapy to be able to hit their Eidolon.

I guess I can only really repeat the same points again... they have no way to dig for Eidolon. No way at all. They have to have it during the first three turns of the game and NOT have us have a corresponding Therapy (or bounce spell after board). They also have to not just die to us before they can play it.

All of these factors allign favorably for us imo, especially when we don't have to worry about mana denial (like against Thalia decks) or countermagic (like against Counterbalance decks)... I'm not trying to sound as though facing Burn is a free win... there aren't really many of those out there. But I consider us favorites, if only by 5 % or so... and as such I'd never have a problem facing Burn with something on the line.

1 burning wish main sucks. I preffer to be cold to hate cards g1. I have already won diferent death and taxes decks with thalia ok board just by infernaling for more cabal rituals and playing my artifacts early.

Against burn. If u fear them just play 4 therapy. I play just 3 and win 95% of the time. Also a trick if u know u face burn or u play gitaxian and ur on the play. Dont play therapy for eidolon turn 1. Wait until ur turn 2. Because it guves u one more draw of them to draw rhe eidolon. Also if they are on burn. Or play a t1 red ferch. Its usualy good to play therapy for eidolon with split second.
I usualy side vs them like so:
-2 sensei
-1 preordain
-1 ad nauseam
-2 duress
-1 land (may be usea or volc)
+2 chain of vapor
+3 decay
+1 tendrills


Also I just smash ur delver all day. Its really easy matchup.
I side like so
-1 preordian
-2 sensei
-1 nauseam
+1 tendrills
+3 decay

They are low on threads and play no mana denial so a decay destrying his pyro or delver or swift gives u too much time to win.
I have lost only one time vs ur. But was because i could go off but never found bussines spells both games. I would love to play vs ur all day. Mucho more than vs bug delver.

Also I think that while empty is great in tes it does sucks as a 1x in ant. I have liked sb when i sided on 3x vs tempo and was a great natural draw.

Finally made it back to my local event (I travel a lot for work) and played ANT for the first time in over 6 months. Here was my list:

Lands
4 polluted delta
4 scalding tarn
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 tropical island
1 badlands
1 swamp
1 island

Spells
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 lotus petal
4 LED
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe
4 infernal tutor
4 cabal therapy
3 duress
2 lightning bolt
1 past in flames
1 tendrils
1 ad nauseam
1 sensei's divining top

Sideboard
3 xantid swarm
3 abrupt decay
2 lightning bolt
2 chain of vapor
2 massacre
1 empty the warrens
1 tendrils
1 pithing needle

The rust was there round 1, but the lines started to come back to me. I finished 2-2 playing UR Delver (win), Reanimator (loss, game 1 turn 1 iona on black sucks), UW rebels (win), and UWR stoneblade (loss). My main problem from before is still there: I hate to mulligan and have trouble deciding what hands should be shipped back. So I had 1 scenario I wanted to get other opinions on. I am playing against UWR stoneblade, no delvers, which I haven't played against before (multiple pyroblast and actual counterspell maindeck). It is game 2 and I am on the play and here is my opening 7:
Infernal tutor
Dark ritual
LED x2
Polluted Delta x2
Tropical Island

I have sideboarded out the ad nauseam for empty the warrens. I decided to go for it and make him have the FoW or be on a 2 turn clock with empty. He did have the FoW. So my question is 1: do you keep this hand and 2: do you go for it on turn 1?

As a side note on the lightning bolts, I feel that 4 was too many, but 2 is correct for me at this point (will probably leave in main instead of preordains). It was never a dead draw and either bought me a couple of turns or was a 5 point life swing when storming. I will probably add young pyromancers to the board for the bolts and the pithing needle since I like the card a lot for the control matchups.

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Originally Posted by Togores

1 burning wish main sucks. I preffer to be cold to hate cards g1. I have already won diferent death and taxes decks with thalia ok board just by infernaling for more cabal rituals and playing my artifacts early.

Against burn. If u fear them just play 4 therapy. I play just 3 and win 95% of the time.

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I doubt you've played Burn 20 times last year, but I can surely link you to your 5%

Togores, can you share your list? I am going to GPNJ and would like to try things out on Friday.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by grmpytopdecker

Togores, can you share your list? I am going to GPNJ and would like to try things out on Friday.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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That my current list:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15070&iddeck=112035

Playing 4 therapys is never worng, I just like 4 duress because they are better against miracles and combo.


Also I have played a lot vs burn because a friend of my group plays it among dragon stompy and we can be evening long just playing the matchup :)
But yeah the number of 95% like most of the % numbers are 78% invented and not 100% exact :D

It's late and this may be ridiculous, but what about testing one of the flex spots as a single grapeshot main? It answers eidolon, Thalia, and gaddock teeg all for little investment, it doesn't make our ANs terrible, it slows down ur delver, and it can just act as a redundant win condition. I'm sure it's been done before but I figured I'd bring it up with everyone talking about tnt and answering eidolon and friends.

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Originally Posted by Tav

It's late and this may be ridiculous, but what about testing one of the flex spots as a single grapeshot main? It answers eidolon, Thalia, and gaddock teeg all for little investment, it doesn't make our ANs terrible, it slows down ur delver, and it can just act as a redundant win condition. I'm sure it's been done before but I figured I'd bring it up with everyone talking about tnt and answering eidolon and friends.

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I mean serioulsy, c'mon let's stay formal. Truely ridiculous :laugh: