[Deck] Suicide Black

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Originally Posted by Baumeister

@ Arsenal:

Your build looks exactly the same as mine, except I run Diabolic Edict in place of the Pithing Needles to help push Negator through. I've been really happy with the creature package though: everything is a pretty huge threat. Have you found that the Tombstalker or Dark Confidant version is more successful?

I don't think Smallpox is as effective in this deck because, like you said, we have no way to take advantage of it. If you were going to replace sinkhole with something, it would probably be something that affects the opponent directly, ie: discard or creature kill.

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I've found that the Confidant build has a slight edge in the pure control and combo matchups, but I haven't done enough testing with the Tombstalker build in general for any concrete conclusions; I think each build has it's advantages over the other. Personally, I like the Confidant build (just my own personal feelings about Confidant), but I'd probably play the Tombstalker build if I was walking into a blind meta; Tombstalker build seems more even across the board, while the Confidant build boasts a better control and combo matchup, but suffers in the aggro department.

Smallpox was a suggestion posted on TMD (Vintage budget Sui Black) and it piqued my interest as many of it's positives applied to Legacy Sui Black as well. Meh, just wanted to throw it out there and see if it took off. Totally unconventional card choice, but interesting nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Smallpox was a suggestion posted on TMD (Vintage budget Sui Black) and it piqued my interest as many of it's positives applied to Legacy Sui Black as well.

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The most important difference between Legacy and Vintage suicide is the aim of its cards, though. While T1 sui is more of a control deck with some finishers (I run seven, 4 Negators and 3 'stalkers as Negator 5 - 7), T1.5 sui is an aggro deck that uses its disruption to clear the path for its creatures.

Therefore you cannot rely on Smallpox in Legacy, as it costs much of your own tempo (while Sinkhole doesn't).

If there's a version that can make a better use of it, it would be a list running Tombstalker.

Arsenal, I like the Tombstalker build you posted. If I had to stick with mono black, I would play something very similar. Something along these lines...

9 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
2 Pithing Needle
2 Reanimate

3 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Ashenmoor Gouger/Phyrexian Negator
4 Tombstalker

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Dystopia
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
1 Reanimate

The sideboard may look unconvential, but you would be amazed how often Reanimate ends up being a godsend. And Duress is a fantastic card to bring against those matchups where Snuff Out is useless and begging to be sided out (Control and Combo). I frequently found Engineered Plague to be wholly unsatisfactory.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

4 Ashenmoor Gouger/Phyrexian Negator

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I'm interested, how often have you found Negator to be enough of a liability to run Ashenmoor Gouger over it? Additionally, which one would you run in a blind meta? I feel that regardless of Negator's downside, it has enough synergy to make it stronger than Gouger with Tombstalker.

Also, why cut Nantuko Shade? He comes out early and can take on Tarmogoyf and live - not many creatures can say that. I understand that Reanimate is good, but maybe you could move Pithing Needle to the sideboard and up the mainboard Reanimates to 3, adding the final Nantuko Shade along with it.

Finally, any thoughts about more maindeck removal? Since we're running Phyrexian Negator, I feel it's necessary. I've been running 3 Diabolic Edict alongside Snuff Out.

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Originally Posted by Shimster

The most important difference between Legacy and Vintage suicide is the aim of its cards, though. While T1 sui is more of a control deck with some finishers (I run seven, 4 Negators and 3 'stalkers as Negator 5 - 7), T1.5 sui is an aggro deck that uses its disruption to clear the path for its creatures.

Therefore you cannot rely on Smallpox in Legacy, as it costs much of your own tempo (while Sinkhole doesn't).

If there's a version that can make a better use of it, it would be a list running Tombstalker.

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A resolved Smallpox does three things that a resolved Sinkhole cannot.

(1.) Forces your opponent to sacrifice a land, guaranteed. He can no longer just sit on his fetchland until he's ready to "go" (grab the Bayou to cast Goyf, grab the U. Sea to combo in your face, etc.). True, we also have to sacrifice a land, but in my testing, I've been able to comfortably operate off 3 lands; any more than that is just food for Shade.

(2.) Doubles as removal for problematic creatures. Sometimes, 4 total removal spells isn't enough, and the spell we do run has limitations/restrictions. If I'm staring down an opposing Tombstalker, or Morphling, or some other rediculous fatty that got into play, what am I going to do? DIE. Smallpox at least gives you an out in situations where Sinkhole could not, while also fulfilling different needs.

(3.) Fills your yard up for Tombstalker quickly. A resolved Smallpox, theoretically, will get a maximum of 4 cards in your yard (the sacced land, the discarded card, the sacced creature, and the Smallpox itself). If it only gets 3 in the yard because you didn't have a creature out in play, that's fine too. This is the weakest "strength" of Smallpox in the Tombstalker build, but could be relevant in certain situations.

The tempo you sacrifice isn't that great if you play Smallpox early, but it can be devastating to an opponent when timed properly. Admittedly, all the scenarios I can think of that would just wreck your opponent requires you to be on the play, but still, I don't think Smallpox should be overlooked so soon.
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Regarding Negator or Gouger in the Tombstalker build, I'd run Negator. Negator + Tombstalker has synergy along the same lines as a Smallpox + Tombstalker does, while one damages your opponent for alot before feeding your Tombstalker, and the other heavily disrupts your opponent alot before feeding your Tombstalker.

@Arsenal

The downside of Small Pox in a deck with creatures is, that it's almost anytime carddisadvantage. If both players have 1 land, 1 creature and a card in hand, you will loose 4 cards where your opponent only looses 3. If you cast this early on( when the card is best to cast) it's the only spell you can play that turn. So you're wasting a turn to loose a card.

This with Dark Ritual and Negator can be problematic... Allthough I like the fact it destroys a land.

BB

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Originally Posted by Benie Bederios

@Arsenal

The downside of Small Pox in a deck with creatures is, that it's almost anytime carddisadvantage. If both players have 1 land, 1 creature and a card in hand, you will loose 4 cards where your opponent only looses 3. If you cast this early on( when the card is best to cast) it's the only spell you can play that turn. So you're wasting a turn to loose a card.

This with Dark Ritual and Negator can be problematic... Allthough I like the fact it destroys a land.

BB

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Assuming I cast it turn 2-3 (sweet spot), I shouldn't really have any creatures out at all. Unless I Ritualed out a 1st turn Negator/Specter, I should just have fetches in my yard, and Swamps out in play. And if I have a 1st turn Negator/Specter, then I most certainly wouldn't be playing Smallpox (barring rare circumstances).

You wouldn't cast Smallpox just because, you'd have to pick and choose your times to achieve effectiveness. In your example, if my opponent loses 3 total cards, and I lose 4, what happened the turn before? Did I Thoughtseize and saw my opponent had nothing of importance in hand? Do I have a Swamp/fetch + Tombstalker in hand to power him out the turn after I Smallpox? What is the life total? What deck is my opponent playing?

I can give you hypotheticals all day where Smallpox would be an absolute bomb versus my opponent, and I'm sure you could give me just as many that would show Smallpox in a negative light. I think I'll just do some testing and see how often Smallpox's utility trumps Sinkhole's direct effectiveness.

@ Arsenal

I am sorry, but I playtested Smallpox, and I am sad to say, I more often than not found myself holding it, because I didn't want to sacrifice the tempo advantage I had when I drew it, instead of playing it. I am much happier with the Rain of Tears that I now play (yes they aren't Sinkholes, but I am glad they aren't Smallpox) in my budget deck than I ever was with Smallpox. In fact, I was happier with the Blights I played for one weekend before I got the Rain of Tears than I Was with the Smallpoxes.

I've been testing Smallpox too, and it's not that bad, but it's advantages over Sinkhole didn't come into play as often as I'd hope. I still like the fact that for what that slot is designed to do, destroy land, Smallpox guarantees it, but you're right, sometimes the tempo loss to us is even greater than to the opponent. I think I'll still keep it around for kicks when I'm playing casuals with buddies.

Also, I know it's for budgetary reasons, but Rain of Tears? For 3 mana, I'd want to cast an absolute bomb.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Also, I know it's for budgetary reasons, but Rain of Tears? For 3 mana, I'd want to cast an absolute bomb.

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Well unfortunately I don't know of any absolute bombs... and until I can get ahold of sinkholes... as far as I know, Rain of tears is afterall the next best thing... and my environment is relatively competitive...

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Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin

[...] as far as I know, Rain of tears is afterall the next best thing [...]

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Not quite.

Choking Sands and Rancid Earth are way better because they've got the same cost (1BB), but aren't vanilla.

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Originally Posted by Shimster

Not quite.

Choking Sands and Rancid Earth are way better because they've got the same cost (1BB), but aren't vanilla.

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I would have to disagree with that: first off Choking Sands can't hit swamps. So they are dead against a bunch of decks. Second, Rancid earth, come midgame, will likely kill a bunch of your creatures because so many are 2/1's (pump/jump knights, shade will require mana, confidants). I would definitely go with rain of tears over both of those.

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Originally Posted by Damnosus

I would have to disagree with that: first off Choking Sands can't hit swamps. So they are dead against a bunch of decks. Second, Rancid earth, come midgame, will likely kill a bunch of your creatures because so many are 2/1's (pump/jump knights, shade will require mana, confidants). I would definitely go with rain of tears over both of those.

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Icequake FTW, take that mighty quinn :laugh:

Good call sir-I had totally forgotten about that card :laugh:

I like Icequake, if I am unable to get my Sinkholes for Christmas, I am going to have to get a playset of Icequakes, that card is awesome :smile:

I am going to go against my deck posting policy and post the list I am currently testing, it will be up for a few days before I take it down... I would appreciate it if no one quoted it so that when I take it down there is no trace of the list.

In any case, any comments on the list would be appreciated. This is a list that Eldariel and I have been working on for a while... so it has a great deal of potential. I have tested it against Team America quite a bit, and it seems to do relatively well...

// Lands
10 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [A] Hypnotic Specter
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [ON] Smother
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [US] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [AL] Dystopia
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus


So here is the list.

Looks pretty solid with one exception.

Running 4x Dark Confidant with 3X Tombstalker, 7x Fetchlands, and 4x Thoughtsieze is pretty risky. I would keep either stalker or confidant and replace the other choice with something like Ashenmoore Gouger. I know you are running Jitte main deck to support the life loss, but it is still too risky for me.

Something like,

-4x Confidant
-1 Nantuko Shade

+4 Ashenmoore Gouger
+1 Tombstalker

I also like Crucible of Worlds in the 2x slot instead of Jitte, recurring Wasteland can be very strong in the right meta. Crucible also opens up the list to 1X Raven's Crime, which rocks. I don't think anyone can argue Jitte main deck, as it is also a strong choice.

Good luck!

I found the life loss wasn't as huge of a factor as it should be with this deck. However if I was going to take anything out of the fetch lands would be the first thing to go... everything else in the deck is really really solid...

I definitely wouldn't cut Tombstalker or Confidant. These are the two cards that make Suicide competitive today. If you cut Confidant, you run out of gas very fast. If you cut Tombstalker, you can get stalled by a single Tarmogoyf very easy. I wouldn't cut the Fetchlands either, because they are needed to cast Tombstalker.

I really like the list, but I've two questions as well:

1. What's the role of extirpate in this list? Do you regard it as a pure graveyard hate card, or do you plan to board it as "resource denial" (e.g. cut off splash colors by extirpating wasted duals) as well? (Which in my opinion doesn't make that much sense in an aggressive Deck without Lategame Plan)

2. How do you use your Nantuko Shades?
Given the case: You have 2 Swamps in play, plus a Nantuko Shade. Your Opponent is sitting on 0-1 Lands (thanks to your LD) and has no creature in play. Additional Disruption like Hymn to Tourach is lurking around in your hand.

Do you disrupt your opponent and attack with a small Nantuko Shade or smash face with a pumped Nantuko Shade? (lets say the opponent controls a white mana source which enables him to cast topdecked swords to plowshares)

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Originally Posted by MasterC

I really like the list, but I've two questions as well:

1. What's the role of extirpate in this list? Do you regard it as a pure graveyard hate card, or do you plan to board it as "resource denial" (e.g. cut off splash colors by extirpating wasted duals) as well? (Which in my opinion doesn't make that much sense in an aggressive Deck without Lategame Plan)

2. How do you use your Nantuko Shades?
Given the case: You have 2 Swamps in play, plus a Nantuko Shade. Your Opponent is sitting on 0-1 Lands (thanks to your LD) and has no creature in play. Additional Disruption like Hymn to Tourach is lurking around in your hand.

Do you disrupt your opponent and attack with a small Nantuko Shade or smash face with a pumped Nantuko Shade? (lets say the opponent controls a white mana source which enables him to cast topdecked swords to plowshares)

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Well, I am actually toying with the idea of running Stromgald Crusader instead of Nantuko Shade, so as to minimalize having to deal with issues such as Swords to Plowshares and Oblivion Ring. In testing it has down very very well. However in the situation you posed, I would probably disrupt the hand and attack with a small shade... better not to risk getting the shade killed.

As far as Extirpate goes, it is primarily an answer to Storm Combo, or a form of Resource Denial, depending on the situation. In testing I have used it very effectively against Team America to shut them off both their Underground Sea's as well as their Forces of Will... so yeah I definitely like the card.