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After lots of testing i came to conclusion that the best is 4 autums veil to chant the opp and 4 piroblast to counter all blue cards including destroing jace, vendoloion and delver and get rid of mindbreak trap.
Xantid is to bad as a card because. Swords, path and lightning srmre overall and the opp already knows our plan.
Completly agree!Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
okay, so what are you siding out for the 8 cards. particularly the rug matchup is more difficult because sometimes they run stifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
eh we know what their lists are:
i've been siding out: 4 gitaxian probe, 2 tinder wall, 1 seething song, 1 pyretic ritual.
what about you guys?
I want to strong out this point since Reforge the Soul does not solve any problem of the deck. It's an upgrade for the combo certainly but the MU against U control is still awful. Runnig 3 MD for miracle does not worth the pitty. I think that 2 MD 1 side is ok!Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Maybe this is the list i'd use with it:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
1 [U] Taiga
// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
2 [AVR] Reforge The Soul
// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [M11] Pyretic Ritual
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
2 [UL] Grim Monolith / Chrome Mox
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [SC] Goblin War Strike
SB: 1 [AVR] Reforge The Soul
Strong mana generation with some cantrinp fixing.
The one problem I see with reforge the souls is force of will, if they have it, they can let you burn your hand away to cast it, then just counter it, and if they dont, they could get a new hand of 7 and possibly get a force of will, then just wait till you're approaching seething song or desperate ritual, use it on that, and prevent you from even getting to empty the warrens tricks, or just flat out countering burning wish / goblin charbelcher.
aside from that however, that 1 card in a pool of thousands, though its a heavily played card being that its force of will, whenever that isn't an issue, you just make your game ones that much more ridiculus! >^,^<
True Reforge can refill their hand with Force of Will. Then again, more and more control decks are playing 3 copies of Force these days so its not as likely as it was a few months ago. Also, you can still play Empty the Warrens as your business spell or have enough mana floating to potentially play double Business spells. The fact that Belcher can play Reforge makes it dangerous in that it can run 14 business spells now, 7 of which can produce a turn 1 win (not counting random Burning Wish --> natural Tendrils plays because thats rare). It also means the deck can recover from Force quite well in that a topdecked Reforge can lead to a new combo turn with very few cards.
Also, you can play Autumn's Veil in the board as a protection spell to protect the whole combo turn. I think its better than Xantid Swarm right now anyway with all the Bolts/Chains getting played in UR Delver and RUG Tempo.
Yea >^,^< I run both autums veil & xantid swarm, and just bring in either/or accordingly, the other half of the sideboard being the burning wish targets of course.
I'm wondering if Mirri's Guile would be good sideboard tech. It helps you sculpt a beast hand, and can set up a Reforge the Soul attempt pretty nicely as you can stack the top 3 without having to invest any mana like you would with top, and then draw Reforge to cast the Miracle, or wait a turn to set up with extra mana sources, protection, etc. I'm testing it in PSI right now and its been pretty sick so far.
EDIT:
Also, Mirri's Guile allows you to actually use spare Land Grants for something, as you can shuffle away the top 3 that you don't want to see.
I've been thinking the same thing regarding force of will and reforge the soul. The thing is that it your opponent doesn't have it when you go off, reforge almost guarantees they'll hit it which can be disasterous if we are going for belcher. I still think its worth some testing though because naturally drawing it can really help recover if we get countered the first time around. The one thing I don't really like is that we will almost never cast it for the miracle cost since we are going off within the first few turns and don't have a way to properly set it up on a consistent basis.
I like the idea of miri's guile but I don think we have much room for it. Our sideboards mainly consist of blue hate, and ways to beat out hate against our deck. Miri's guile is only allowing us to set up what we draw which slows us down in the long run. As one of the fastest combo decks in the format, we cannot really afford to be slowed down at all.
I disagree. This isn't really one of the fastest combo decks in terms of when you win.. at least until Reforge the Soul upped the win conditions and provided more turn 1 kill potential. TES and ANT are both faster than Belcher. They actually win on turn 2 consistently while still having a great turn 1 kill percentage with IT/BW + LED into an IGG/PiF loop or AdN. Belcher Empty's the Warrens most of the time and will often kill on turn 2 if you can make 20 goblins (not likely until Reforge) or turn 3 (often the case when you make 10-14 goblins). Reforge the Soul definitely raises the potential for the deck to get faster kills and match TES's speed, especially now that you can Burning Wish into a D7 without even needing LED to do it (Diminishing Returns...). Mirri's Guile allows you to slow roll the opponent, which is an important trait of a combo deck. Its not quite as good against Tempo decks because you don't have quite as much time to assemble a winning hand but against slow control decks, its pretty important to have some method of slow rolling. To illustrate... I play PSI in real life all the time. Granted, I don't play a BW board so I have a lot more sideboard space, but Carpet of Flowers, Mirri's Guile, Duress's, and a few other tech cards I switch around between allow me to slow roll my opponent.... with a glass house. I'm confident that Belcher can do the same if people start playing perpetual resources to beat control rather than one time use protection spells. Xantid Swarm is shit these days. Pyroblast isn't much better if your opponent has at least 2 countermagic, which they certainly will post-board. Mirri's Guile is a great perpetual resource to ensure you can sculpt a second or even a third attempt. In PSI, granted I play like 20 business spells but with Carpet of Flowers, I can play like 6 or 7 combo attempts.. vs. Belcher's 1 or 2 attempts. Its about perpetual resources, thats how you beat control.Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
We should consider Defense Grid. Its old school tech, but I think its about time Belcher brought it back. Its better than Swarm right now, even if its a Spell Snare target, that might mean you get Spell Snare out of their hand so you can go for a BW line of play. This helps when you play Gitaxian Probe.
Both SI and Belcher are condemnd to be a tier 2 deck unless brainstorm / top are banned. THey completely lack of diruption makes them sons of Force of Will if it's in the opponent hand. Reforge simply helps us to make a more efficient combo turn making more tokens or matching belcher...that's all folks!!
Sorry I haven't replied back regarding this. Still interested in a tournament report?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
Always.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sided3angle
Off course!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sided3angle
Any update on this? I'm curious to see what the results were and the methodology involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by OurSerratedDust
In this days i was thinking about Autum vs Swarm, my only problem was that i have seen tons of players running Mindbreak Trap n their sides. If Exile a spell is not Counter a spell, then Autum's veil does nothing against trap roght? or am i wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by feline
Wow... it doesn't work. Didn't realize Autumn's Veil read 'counter' and not 'target'. I thought it basically gave your spells hexproof from blue and black. Good to know.
I thought so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
And btw, has anybody had any experience with Reforge the Soul?
I have some comments on it:
A- This card increases dematicaly the storm count and elevates the posibility of going off with belcher.
B- DEcreases the number of mulligan
C- Recicles the hand of the opo in g2 allowing him to hit trap when he hadnt iniatially in its hand. The same is valid for counters in g1
D- If you hit miracle is simply insane.
E- Requires high mana generation for wishing it (minor point)
Played Belcher at a 28-man IQ yesterday. Made Top 4. Went undefeated in the Swiss. I probably would have made the finals but I scooped my brother into it (since I was qualified and he wasn't). I'll get a tournament report soon.
I had tested with 3 Reforge the Soul MD but I realized it wasn't doing much and doesn't really help versus Force of Will, so I just replaced the Diminishing Returns with Reforge the Soul. I didn't ever cast it though so I don't know what difference it would have made.
cool, if you could give your sb strat (what to side out) i think that's always pretty important as the deck more or less plays itself.
congrats!